apropos to the other thread, and instead
of being OT.

finally got more planting done.

the old grape trellis now has a woven
netting to give the climbing beans some
support. in the aims of keeping it simple
and using recycled materials we had some
old cotton yarn that i used to make the
netting.

as this is all experimental and unfenced
from deer i took the time to pull some
garlic and spread it around to mask any
enticing smells. also took many more garlics
out to use as breakfast. they look like a
green onion at this stage. very tasty.
if you know you are going to use the cloves
of garlic for green onions like this it is
good to bury them deeply as then you'll get
more white/blanched stalk along with the
green top. i pulled one that had a good
eight inches of blanched stalk. starting
from bulbules it takes two years to get to
decent stalk size.

in the process of making room to plant i
had to move a few dozen strawberry plants to
other bare spots in the patch and that meant
weeding spaces and then watering them all
in.

tomorrow i hope to go plant some peas in
that garden as they can maybe act as decoy
plants if the deer or woodchucks come through
looking for goodies.

if you can't tell by now, some things i
do, i just do for fun. not all of them
turn out. last year, with all the frosts
and strange spring weather i had a few
quarts of strawberries from this auxillary
patch. this season, there's a lot of blooms
back there, so i'm hoping for a few more
quarts than last year.

so it goes. goodnight...


songbird

"songbird" wrote in message
...
apropos to the other thread, and instead
of being OT.

finally got more planting done.

the old grape trellis now has a woven
netting to give the climbing beans some
support. in the aims of keeping it simple
and using recycled materials we had some
old cotton yarn that i used to make the
netting.

as this is all experimental and unfenced
from deer i took the time to pull some
garlic and spread it around to mask any
enticing smells. also took many more garlics
out to use as breakfast. they look like a
green onion at this stage. very tasty.
if you know you are going to use the cloves
of garlic for green onions like this it is
good to bury them deeply as then you'll get
more white/blanched stalk along with the
green top. i pulled one that had a good
eight inches of blanched stalk. starting
from bulbules it takes two years to get to
decent stalk size.

in the process of making room to plant i
had to move a few dozen strawberry plants to
other bare spots in the patch and that meant
weeding spaces and then watering them all
in.

tomorrow i hope to go plant some peas in
that garden as they can maybe act as decoy
plants if the deer or woodchucks come through
looking for goodies.

if you can't tell by now, some things i
do, i just do for fun. not all of them
turn out. last year, with all the frosts
and strange spring weather i had a few
quarts of strawberries from this auxillary
patch. this season, there's a lot of blooms
back there, so i'm hoping for a few more
quarts than last year.

so it goes. goodnight...


songbird

I found out yesterday that a neighbor has some extra garlic plants ... and
mine planted down in Memphis before we decided to move have been trampled
into the ground by g-kids and dogs . I'll be getting some soon !

On another note , here in the USA today is the day we honor our fallen
soldiers . I'd really like to be in DC for Rolling Thunder , but that wasn't
possible so instead the wife and I have decided to have a neighborhood
barbecue . The shoulders pork have been smokin' since last night , the
beans are pre-heating on the stove before I put them on the smoker just
did that , and Momma's 'tater salad is in the fridge .

In memory of those who have fallen , and those who served and came home .
May we regain those liberties that were so hard-won before those who would
see us in servitude can accomplish their goals .
--
Snag
USN
Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club

In article ,
songbird wrote:

starting
from bulbules it takes two years to get to
decent stalk size.

Well, perhaps.

I bought some Spanish Roja a couple of years back as my mutt garlic was
in a slump. The mutt garlic gets "pregnant stems" where Spanish Roja is
a scape-forming hardneck. Still growing the mutt, but also growing the
new stuff - A more adequate supply overall.

After some casual internet research I opted to leave the scapes be. Some
(quite a few, actually) of the resulting bulbils were about as large as
a clove. The resulting plants are not quite as big as the "from clove"
SRs, but they are pretty good-sized plants for all that. If they make a
uni-clove I'm betting it will be a pretty good-sized one, and I'd not be
surprised if they actually make cloves their first year out in the
field. On the other hand, I don't mind growing some uni-cloves if they
turn out a good size - less peeling per unit of garlic used, so it's no
guarantee of getting replanted if they choose that route ;-)

Some of the smaller SR bulbils went out in the woods. One patch of 25 or
so is doing well, the others are less impressive. That experiment was a
direct result of the surprising success of a clove or bulbil that exited
the porch into deeply shaded pine/myrtle country and came up to make a
respectable volunteer plant, and having way more SR bulbils than I knew
what to do with.

Also growing someone's heirloom garlic - I gifted a couple of
seed-quality heads of SR in return [which, I later heard, got pickled -
ugghhh. Different priorities.] Thus far it looks pretty similar to the
SR. It was an impressively large head, but I'll find out if that was
nature or nurture at harvest time.

I may try a 50% descaping experiment myself - at least one person who
tried it found a reduction in yield on the de-scaped side, and most
found no meaningful difference, which was why I left them last year.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

Ecnerwal wrote:
songbird wrote:

starting
from bulbules it takes two years to get to
decent stalk size.

Well, perhaps.

I bought some Spanish Roja a couple of years back as my mutt garlic was
in a slump. The mutt garlic gets "pregnant stems" where Spanish Roja is
a scape-forming hardneck. Still growing the mutt, but also growing the
new stuff - A more adequate supply overall.

After some casual internet research I opted to leave the scapes be. Some
(quite a few, actually) of the resulting bulbils were about as large as
a clove.

yes, i've had some that are marble sized.
those can grow fairly nice plants the first
season. i've not seen any form a sizeable
head compared to the cloves i use (the largest
can be close to the size of my thumb). mine
are mostly one variety of a hardneck garlic.


The resulting plants are not quite as big as the "from clove"
SRs, but they are pretty good-sized plants for all that. If they make a
uni-clove I'm betting it will be a pretty good-sized one, and I'd not be
surprised if they actually make cloves their first year out in the
field. On the other hand, I don't mind growing some uni-cloves if they
turn out a good size - less peeling per unit of garlic used, so it's no
guarantee of getting replanted if they choose that route ;-)

yep, it's all fair game if i'm cooking and
that's what i've got on hand. i'll even cook
bulbules. when the bulbules first form they
can be eaten without peeling. just as the
bulbs in the ground are still edible when they
are first forming too. just gotta catch them
before they start hardening off the skin layers.
it's not much longer past the first stage of
scape forming.


Some of the smaller SR bulbils went out in the woods. One patch of 25 or
so is doing well, the others are less impressive. That experiment was a
direct result of the surprising success of a clove or bulbil that exited
the porch into deeply shaded pine/myrtle country and came up to make a
respectable volunteer plant, and having way more SR bulbils than I knew
what to do with.

yes, always have tons of bulbules to mess
with. that is why i'm talking about it being
a good source of green onions for cooking because
i've tried to grow green bunching onions here
from seed and had mixed results. and also from
sets (with much better results, but who wants to
pay for sets if you can have about the same return
for free using bulbules?).


Also growing someone's heirloom garlic - I gifted a couple of
seed-quality heads of SR in return [which, I later heard, got pickled -
ugghhh. Different priorities.]

haha, yeah, i gave some large cloves to a friend
to plant in her garden, one of her sisters (she's a
nun) pulled them as weeds this spring. oops.


Thus far it looks pretty similar to the
SR. It was an impressively large head, but I'll find out if that was
nature or nurture at harvest time.

good luck!


I may try a 50% descaping experiment myself - at least one person who
tried it found a reduction in yield on the de-scaped side, and most
found no meaningful difference, which was why I left them last year.

i mostly descape to keep them from falling and
scattering all over the place. there is already
plenty of garlic growing around here. i don't
want it to take over... descaping at least limits
the number of clumps i have to dig up the next
time if i'm trying to control or clear an area
of garlic. as the back spiral garden has shown
it might be a great idea to just fling handfuls
of scapes around if you really want a lot of
garlic, but you'll likely regret that approach
if you decide later you don't need quite that
much any more. it will likely take me several
more years to clear areas of that garden (not
using weed killers, doing it by hand, harvesting
when needed and when weeding that patch). it's
my prime green manure patch. i don't want it
taken over by garlic or weeds. very healthy
out there right now, coming along nicely.

i haven't done a controlled experiment in
descaping (to do one accurately would involve
more space and equipment than i have).

first you would have to weigh the cloves and
figure the moisture content before planting and
then plant them in a numbered grid (to make sure
you are not influencing the results via watering
or fertilizer use or chance circumstances). when
choosing plants to descape you'd have to generate
random numbers and write them down and then only
descape those plants. when harvesting you would
have to keep track of which cloves go with which
numbers. yet you have to keep the numbers apart
from the list of which you descaped (so you could
not off chance bias the results). and then at final
weighing you'd have to figure out the moisture
content again. how much chaff/skin is left on
the cloves could influence fine results. so i
think very few people have actually done a very
well controlled study.

my own observations is that it can make an improvement.
i think it needs to be done fairly quickly when the
scape first appears and not done later after the plant
has spent a lot of energy forming the scapes. this could
be another variable to test in a controlled experiment.

so far the only real controlled experiment i was
able to do was testing spacing between plants and
from that i've found that four inches is too close
but six is ok. this season i've planted some on an
even larger spacing and they seem to be doing fine,
but i don't think it will make that much difference
in head size.

the interplanted experiment is ongoing, as long as
the plants are not completely covered they seem to
be growing just fine. the head size looks to be
related to how much it is smothered, but other factors
(water, nutrients) can influence that just as much in
the end. still for some areas i trim back the
cover crop and others i let go. we'll see how the
heads look when i pull them.


songbird

My 20 year Navy retired son took my 16 year old grandson to Rolling Thunder yesterday. I'm sure it was something grandson will never forget. He is thinking military career also. I am a very proud Mom & Grandmom today especially.
Nan in DE

Derald wrote:
songbird wrote:

apropos to the other thread, and instead
of being OT.

finally got more planting done.

Same he Replanted some beans to replace seedlings that had been
neatly topped by grasshoppers, LOL!

i thought you had treated for those?

we finished up planting the tomatoes, peppers
and other misc starts from the greenhouse. all
i have left to do are peas/peapods or beans to
fill in the remaining spaces, a few beets
perhaps but these will not have any worms/worm
poo under them as i have used it all up. hauled
160+ lbs in 8 buckets today and all of that went
under the 34 tomato plants. 20 Big Beef, 8 Romas
and 4 Gloria. i was hoping to try some others
but i didn't go with Ma when she picked up the
plants so what we got was what we got... i sure
didn't plan on 12 cabbage plants or 4 spaghetti
squash plants either or yellow peppers. gack,
all of the yellow peppers i've had have been
fairly tasteless, so we'll see if home grown has
more going for them or not i guess...


Also -- last night, actually -- transplanted some okra, something
I've never before done in my life. Usually just poke some seeds into the
ground, wait a few days and stand back.

*nods* that's all my brother has always done.
he's the okra grower/eater. i grew a few here
last year, but i cook so rarely now that it's
a waste of space. i gave most of my seeds from
last year's crop to my brother to plant.


This year, though, I
interplanted okra and yellow squash, harboring visions of the squash
thriving in idyllic bliss in the broken shade of the okra instead of --
as is normally the case -- wilting down pitiably, daily. At any rate,
they were planted on the same date: Mistake. Of course, the squash all
had fully emerged by the second day and by the time the okra presented
itself, the squash was hogging all of the sunlight.

*chuckles*


Oh, well, I'll give
the okra some lead time next time. As things are now, a couple of them
are doing well but the others were moved (into another okra bed) last
night. When it's all big enough, I'm going to plant squashes under it,
just to see. I know that okra does not like to have its roots crowded
but I'd like to find _something_ productive to grow in all of that space
between the stalks, stems, trunks -- whatever one calls them.
Suggestions (preferrably based on experience), please?

sorry i've only grown four okra plants here in
my life. i'm always game for peas/peapods simply
because they add so much nice green cover to the
area and i enjoy raiding them for peas/pods if i
have to weed/water.

i suspect your squash idea might be ok but that
mildew problem is a tough one to get around. same
with about any green or lettuce. how about some
decoratives for the bees? mints, thymes, basils,
sages, parsleys, etc. all grow quickly enough that
you can get some production from them in a month's
time.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:
I was finishing up my planting, the important parts, anyway) on Sat. I
spent about an hour fussing starters into the ground. When I was done, I
just wanted to lie in the shade, and call 911. Half a gallon of water
later, I found out it was 97F (a record here for that date:6/1).

Don't push yourselves. Summer is just starting, and you'll acclimate to
some of the heat, but you'll have to be smart about the rest of it.
Safe gardening.

Derald wrote:
songbird wrote:

apropos to the other thread, and instead
of being OT.

finally got more planting done.

Same he Replanted some beans to replace seedlings that had been
neatly topped by grasshoppers, LOL!

i thought you had treated for those?

we finished up planting the tomatoes, peppers
and other misc starts from the greenhouse. all
i have left to do are peas/peapods or beans to
fill in the remaining spaces, a few beets
perhaps but these will not have any worms/worm
poo under them as i have used it all up. hauled
160+ lbs in 8 buckets today and all of that went
under the 34 tomato plants. 20 Big Beef, 8 Romas
and 4 Gloria. i was hoping to try some others
but i didn't go with Ma when she picked up the
plants so what we got was what we got... i sure
didn't plan on 12 cabbage plants or 4 spaghetti
squash plants either or yellow peppers. gack,
all of the yellow peppers i've had have been
fairly tasteless, so we'll see if home grown has
more going for them or not i guess...


Also -- last night, actually -- transplanted some okra, something
I've never before done in my life. Usually just poke some seeds into the
ground, wait a few days and stand back.

*nods* that's all my brother has always done.
he's the okra grower/eater. i grew a few here
last year, but i cook so rarely now that it's
a waste of space. i gave most of my seeds from
last year's crop to my brother to plant.


This year, though, I
interplanted okra and yellow squash, harboring visions of the squash
thriving in idyllic bliss in the broken shade of the okra instead of --
as is normally the case -- wilting down pitiably, daily. At any rate,
they were planted on the same date: Mistake. Of course, the squash all
had fully emerged by the second day and by the time the okra presented
itself, the squash was hogging all of the sunlight.

*chuckles*


Oh, well, I'll give
the okra some lead time next time. As things are now, a couple of them
are doing well but the others were moved (into another okra bed) last
night. When it's all big enough, I'm going to plant squashes under it,
just to see. I know that okra does not like to have its roots crowded
but I'd like to find _something_ productive to grow in all of that space
between the stalks, stems, trunks -- whatever one calls them.
Suggestions (preferrably based on experience), please?

sorry i've only grown four okra plants here in
my life. i'm always game for peas/peapods simply
because they add so much nice green cover to the
area and i enjoy raiding them for peas/pods if i
have to weed/water.

i suspect your squash idea might be ok but that
mildew problem is a tough one to get around. same
with about any green or lettuce. how about some
decoratives for the bees? mints, thymes, basils,
sages, parsleys, etc. all grow quickly enough that
you can get some production from them in a month's
time.


songbird
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:

I was finishing up my planting, the important parts, anyway) on Sat. I
spent about an hour fussing starters into the ground. When I was done, I
just wanted to lie in the shade, and call 911. Half a gallon of water
later, I found out it was 97F (a record here for that date:6/1).

eek!


Don't push yourselves. Summer is just starting, and you'll acclimate to
some of the heat, but you'll have to be smart about the rest of it.
Safe gardening.

i'm a firm believer in siestas on days when
it gets too hot. we had a hot day last week near
90F along with high humidity. i worked outside
in half hour shifts and drank a lot of water.

not interested in encouraging cataracts (one
possible side effect of dehydration).

this week is much more normal and i'm hoping
to make the best of it.

got a lot done today, just not what i planned on
doing. instead planted a few hundred square feet
of flax (golden seeds -- seems to be an annual
instead of biennial/perennial like the black seed
type we have wandering around in other places).
also put in the cosmos (yellow, red, orange mix)
a few squash plants...

tomorrow is another day.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:

I was finishing up my planting, the important parts, anyway) on Sat. I
spent about an hour fussing starters into the ground. When I was done, I
just wanted to lie in the shade, and call 911. Half a gallon of water
later, I found out it was 97F (a record here for that date:6/1).

eek!


Don't push yourselves. Summer is just starting, and you'll acclimate to
some of the heat, but you'll have to be smart about the rest of it.
Safe gardening.

i'm a firm believer in siestas on days when
it gets too hot. we had a hot day last week near
90F along with high humidity. i worked outside
in half hour shifts and drank a lot of water.

not interested in encouraging cataracts (one
possible side effect of dehydration).

this week is much more normal and i'm hoping
to make the best of it.

got a lot done today, just not what i planned on
doing. instead planted a few hundred square feet
of flax (golden seeds -- seems to be an annual
instead of biennial/perennial like the black seed
type we have wandering around in other places).
also put in the cosmos (yellow, red, orange mix)
a few squash plants...

tomorrow is another day.


songbird

Gender bending again, Scarlett?

Another day indeed! Now tote that barge, and lift that bale.

I want to see that garden growing.
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Derald wrote:
songbird wrote:

i thought you had treated for those?

Oh, I did and may do again. The "nolo" effect is not instantaneous
and depends on successive generations transmitting the infection.
Bedsides, I only applied it across two acres, which -- given
grasshoppers' mobility -- may have been totally ineffectual but I knew
that going in.

as far as people on this group who actually admit
to trying biological controls (other than Bt) you're
it. i just plant host and refuge crops to keep
the good bugs happy and hope that is good enough.
grasshoppers may be a good famine food in the future.
we seem to be growing a healthy supply, not sure i
want to infect them with anything. don't taste bad
fried (tried one in anthropology class about 30 years
ago -- reminded me of a roach (not the bug kind) that
resiny texture). if i were hungry enough i'd surely
give 'em a try. maybe with a lot of garlic.


i suspect your squash idea might be ok but that
mildew problem is a tough one to get around. same
with about any green or lettuce.

Oh, the mildew is a problem primarily for the English peas and,
most years, they're approaching the end of their life cycle by the time
the mildew hits; same for the leafy greens.


how about some decoratives for the bees?

Attracting bees to "bait" crops is counterproductive, IME.
Unfortunately, bees do not read Rodale or TMEN: Bees visiting the bait
are not visiting the vegetables. I try to discourage European honeybees
because their "herding" behavior results in displacement of the native
solitary bees and wasps. Besides, honeybees that find the attractant
first are useless to the garden because the first flower from which a
honeybee takes pollen/nectar in a morning is the _only_ variety from
which she will forage that day. That peculiarity of bee behavior is what
enables beekeepers to produce varietal honey -- they place the hives
where the desired variety is the first that the hives' scouts encounter
at the start of each day. That behavior is not unique to but is most
pronounced in honeybees. Who has not watched a native bumblebee
methodically harvest from one plant, "sniff" another of a different
species, and return to the first or fly off in search of another of that
variety?

i plant flowers for the wild bees too. right now
i'm seeing a slight pick up in the number of species
but the honey bees are largely absent to dominate
anything... the chives this year are mostly being
ignored. normally they are swarmed. bumblebees aren't
as common either. just a few around. one reason i put
cosmos back in this season is that they are a mid-to-
late summer bloom that all sorts of bees seem to like.

now with the birdsfoot trefoil coming out the bees
like that too. i'm glad i've got it established. should
have some alfalfa blooms soon (smells divine...).


mints, thymes, basils,
sages, parsleys, etc. all grow quickly enough that
you can get some production from them in a month's
time.

I already have more herbs than we (AWA the only neighbor who cooks
and with whom I share) can eat; they all are containerized. I had
thought of peanuts but they require full sun and I'm afraid they'd crowd
the okra roots. This year, I will need to replace a few parsley, already
coming into bloom (along with the rosemary), but I don't want it in a
bed for two years and I've had dismal success at moving it in the past.
However, I may underplant the okra with thyme because it is
shallow-enough rooted as not to intimidate the okra, which definitely
does not handle crowding well. The shade will protect it from the sun
and whatever I miss in autumn prep, February temperatures should kill.

thyme surives the winter here. that is why we like
it as a ground cover instead of grass. nice blooms,
smells great when you walk on it, doesn't need to be
mowed, does need a little weeding once in a while, but
nothing like many other garden plants. has many types
so it can be quilted/patterned to keep an area more
interesting and it actually survives growing in rock
hard/unamended clay. we have enough of it now that
it will gladly take over pathways (like the mints and
oreganoes). i really like the low growing pink/purple
variety the best, but it is a bit more prone to weeds
as it doesn't shade the soil as much.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

as far as people on this group who actually admit
to trying biological controls (other than Bt) you're
it.

I hardly see grasshoppers, but I certainly use milky spore for the darn
JBs - of course, they fly in from elsewhere anyway, so the fact that
I've treated this area with milky spore is no panacea.

I also trap them.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.