we have fruit bushes for the birds along
the northern edge. we have empty space out
back (on the other side of the drainage
ditch) which is in danger of being overrun
by poplars and honeysuckles. i'll have a
few year window yet to head that off.

in recent readings on permaculture i
really enjoyed seeing Sepp Holzer's methods
of growing fruit trees as he doesn't do
sprays, pruning or baby his trees. often
to reforest an area he'll include in his
seed mix (besides veggy seeds) seeds from
stone fruits, apples, etc.

as an inexpensive way to get started
with fruit trees in an area out back it
was enough inspiration so that we're going
to work on it (may take a few years to get
going).

to get the fruit tree bugs and predators
established i thought it would be also a
good thing to start seedlings even if there
aren't any sure hopes of getting edible
fruits, perhaps most of them will be inedible
or bait for deer. being persistent as i am
will pay off eventually.

the problem is the whole area is clay and
can be fairly wet at times. any seeds/trees
will have to adapt to that.

if i can gradually get the whole back
area converted to mixed fruit trees and the
understory supporting plants over the course
of the next 20-30 years that will be some
fun.

having some grafting root stock to
work with will be a side benefit. green
apples can be a source of pectin. fruit
woods are nice to work with for furniture
or as a source of aromatic woods for
grilling.

the questions a from seeds, time to
actual production for: apples, cherries,
peaches, apricots and pears?

i would guess for most stone fruits three
to five years. apples and pears, no idea
at all...


songbird

Time to fruit is usually rootstock dependent. Also depends on light
levels (how open, how much other tree shade.) If you are starting from
seeds, you have no idea what you are going to get (on average, about a
1/30,000 chance of something with commercial potential - which further
translates into "that humans would like to eat") and thus not much idea
how long it will take for any particular specimen, as they will all be
different. If you don't provide at least a few years of deer protection,
"never" may be a good bet, depending on local deer pressure.

On the other hand, you'll automatically get "adapted to clay soil" if
you plant seeds - the strong will survive and the weak will perish. You
can graft later if you want people food, or better cider types, or
whatever.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

In article ,
songbird wrote:

we have fruit bushes for the birds along
the northern edge. we have empty space out
back (on the other side of the drainage
ditch) which is in danger of being overrun
by poplars and honeysuckles. i'll have a
few year window yet to head that off.

in recent readings on permaculture i
really enjoyed seeing Sepp Holzer's methods

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw7mQZHfFVE

of growing fruit trees as he doesn't do
sprays, pruning or baby his trees. often
to reforest an area he'll include in his
seed mix (besides veggy seeds) seeds from
stone fruits, apples, etc.

as an inexpensive way to get started
with fruit trees in an area out back it
was enough inspiration so that we're going
to work on it (may take a few years to get
going).

to get the fruit tree bugs and predators
established i thought it would be also a
good thing to start seedlings even if there
aren't any sure hopes of getting edible
fruits, perhaps most of them will be inedible
or bait for deer. being persistent as i am
will pay off eventually.

the problem is the whole area is clay and
can be fairly wet at times. any seeds/trees
will have to adapt to that.

if i can gradually get the whole back
area converted to mixed fruit trees and the
understory supporting plants over the course
of the next 20-30 years that will be some
fun.

having some grafting root stock to
work with will be a side benefit. green
apples can be a source of pectin. fruit
woods are nice to work with for furniture
or as a source of aromatic woods for
grilling.

the questions a from seeds, time to
actual production for: apples, cherries,
peaches, apricots and pears?

i would guess for most stone fruits three
to five years. apples and pears, no idea
at all...


songbird
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

songbird wrote:
we have fruit bushes for the birds along
the northern edge. we have empty space out
back (on the other side of the drainage
ditch) which is in danger of being overrun
by poplars and honeysuckles. i'll have a
few year window yet to head that off.

in recent readings on permaculture i
really enjoyed seeing Sepp Holzer's methods
of growing fruit trees as he doesn't do
sprays, pruning or baby his trees. often
to reforest an area he'll include in his
seed mix (besides veggy seeds) seeds from
stone fruits, apples, etc.


The problem with this is that you don't get to choose your rootstock nor the
fruiting characteristics. These are the reason why nearly all fruit trees
are grafted.


as an inexpensive way to get started
with fruit trees in an area out back it
was enough inspiration so that we're going
to work on it (may take a few years to get
going).

to get the fruit tree bugs and predators
established i thought it would be also a
good thing to start seedlings even if there
aren't any sure hopes of getting edible
fruits, perhaps most of them will be inedible
or bait for deer. being persistent as i am
will pay off eventually.

the problem is the whole area is clay and
can be fairly wet at times. any seeds/trees
will have to adapt to that.


Yes but only if you give them a fighting chance. Do NOT plant them in
holes, as these will become ponds and the trees will die.

if i can gradually get the whole back
area converted to mixed fruit trees and the
understory supporting plants over the course
of the next 20-30 years that will be some
fun.

having some grafting root stock to
work with will be a side benefit. green
apples can be a source of pectin. fruit
woods are nice to work with for furniture
or as a source of aromatic woods for
grilling.


If you know how to do grafting then at least start with a bud that is of
known good fruiting ability.

the questions a from seeds, time to
actual production for: apples, cherries,
peaches, apricots and pears?


4-5 years

D

Ecnerwal wrote:

Time to fruit is usually rootstock dependent. Also depends on light
levels (how open, how much other tree shade.)

the east and part of the S/SE will likely be taken
over by poplars, the north will be the existing tree
line. otherwise they should have unobstructed sunlight
the rest of the day.

being protected from the north wind is probably a
good thing and Holzer repeats in his works that
protection from morning sun is a good thing if the
plants may be frosted.


If you are starting from
seeds, you have no idea what you are going to get (on average, about a
1/30,000 chance of something with commercial potential - which further
translates into "that humans would like to eat")

i've seen that number quoted for apples.
i haven't studied the others at all yet, but
will get into it the next few years.


and thus not much idea
how long it will take for any particular specimen, as they will all be
different. If you don't provide at least a few years of deer protection,
"never" may be a good bet, depending on local deer pressure.

they'll likely be protected by piles of brush
or other materials and likely some other veggies
planted that may distract. also, if it works
out that i have time then i'll fence. if i do
end up later getting trees from known sources or
get into grafting from known sources then i'll
fence those specimens. we have significant
deer pressure (thus 7ft fence for the veggie
gardens i rely upon).


On the other hand, you'll automatically get "adapted to clay soil" if
you plant seeds - the strong will survive and the weak will perish. You
can graft later if you want people food, or better cider types, or
whatever.

*nods*

once i get the area figured out for drainage (there's
some existing flows and drainage tubes) i'll likely
reshape some of the area to give the plants a little
space above the flood stages.

this won't be a short term project. more likely
it will be for the families that come after, but
that doesn't bother me nearly as much as it would
to let poplars take over and turn the area into a
monocultural wasteland. the south & eastern area
land owner might be willing to work along in some
manner. we'll see what happens.


songbird

"songbird" wrote in message

the questions a from seeds, time to
actual production for: apples,

At a guess, I'd say we've had ours grown from seed produce fruit between 4-6
years old.

peaches,

2-3 years, but these have all been the sort of floosey flowering peaches
that put on a stunnign floral display in Spring. The side benefit of these
peaches (which are supposeldy not for eating) has been that the ghastly
green looking small peaches they produce are very edible and with a superbly
flavoured white flesh.

David Hare-Scott wrote:
songbird wrote:
....
in recent readings on permaculture i
really enjoyed seeing Sepp Holzer's methods
of growing fruit trees as he doesn't do
sprays, pruning or baby his trees. often
to reforest an area he'll include in his
seed mix (besides veggy seeds) seeds from
stone fruits, apples, etc.

The problem with this is that you don't get to choose your rootstock nor the
fruiting characteristics. These are the reason why nearly all fruit trees
are grafted.

yes, but then you also get known disease
vulnerabilities too.

as a low cost method of learning and working
with an area that i'd not like to be turned
into poplar trees it gives me incentives to
get out there and work on that area within the
next few years.

until reading his books i was kinda disheartened
by what would happen to that area and not too
willing to put a lot of money into it. efforts
here and there ok, but not much money. so to
take a second look at the situation and to start
pondering and planning, it's a bit of hope for
quite a bit of space.


....
the problem is the whole area is clay and
can be fairly wet at times. any seeds/trees
will have to adapt to that.

Yes but only if you give them a fighting chance. Do NOT plant them in
holes, as these will become ponds and the trees will die.

for sure, once i get a better idea of the
existing drainage then i'll likely trench
and slope areas so the trees/seedlings have
a chance of some dry periods, but they will
never be short of ground water. there's the
large pond behind this area and the nearly
constantly flowing ditches that run through
the property.


....
having some grafting root stock to
work with will be a side benefit. green
apples can be a source of pectin. fruit
woods are nice to work with for furniture
or as a source of aromatic woods for
grilling.

If you know how to do grafting then at least start with a bud that is of
known good fruiting ability.

in time i may get to that.


the questions a from seeds, time to
actual production for: apples, cherries,
peaches, apricots and pears?


4-5 years

thanks,


songbird

songbird wrote:

....

overall lot size 200x400ft.

the empty area to the right (E) of the ditch is
where the fruit trees would go. we have to leave
some space that can be driven over on the right
side along the ditch so we cannot use the entire
area.

http://www.anthive.com/flowers/Way_Up.jpg

this picture was probably taken at least four
years ago so some things have changed since then,
but not that area other than sprouting many
honeysuckles and the poplars creeping in from
the east.


songbird

Farm1 wrote:
songbird wrote:

the questions a from seeds, time to
actual production for: apples,

At a guess, I'd say we've had ours grown from seed produce fruit between 4-6
years old.

peaches,

2-3 years, but these have all been the sort of floosey flowering peaches
that put on a stunnign floral display in Spring. The side benefit of these
peaches (which are supposeldy not for eating) has been that the ghastly
green looking small peaches they produce are very edible and with a superbly
flavoured white flesh.

thanks! nice to have a good surprise like that.
the fun part of this project will be to see what happens
from various sources. i'm hoping my peach connection
turns out well this year and we get a few buckets of
peaches to harvest and process. they also said they'll
likely have pears... August is gonna be crazy if all
the tomatoes come in and we get this fruit besides...


songbird

In article , "Farm1"
wrote:

"songbird" wrote in message

the questions a from seeds, time to
actual production for: apples,

At a guess, I'd say we've had ours grown from seed produce fruit between 4-6
years old.

peaches,

2-3 years, but these have all been the sort of floosey flowering peaches
that put on a stunnign floral display in Spring. The side benefit of these
peaches (which are supposeldy not for eating) has been that the ghastly
green looking small peaches they produce are very edible and with a superbly
flavoured white flesh.

Had a good illustration today of the benefits of odd-colored fruit. I'm
a sweet cherry addict living on the hairy edge of ability to grow the
things. Had some fruit this year - red tree picked clean by marauders
(presumably winged) but the yellow tree was largely untouched.

Songbird, you might also want to put some nut trees in your thinking
cap. Then again, those often just end up being squirrel food, even if
you try to make them not be.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

songbird wrote:
we have fruit bushes for the birds along
the northern edge. we have empty space out
back (on the other side of the drainage
ditch) which is in danger of being overrun
by poplars and honeysuckles. i'll have a
few year window yet to head that off.

in recent readings on permaculture i
really enjoyed seeing Sepp Holzer's methods
of growing fruit trees as he doesn't do
sprays, pruning or baby his trees. often
to reforest an area he'll include in his
seed mix (besides veggy seeds) seeds from
stone fruits, apples, etc.


The problem with this is that you don't get to choose your rootstock nor the
fruiting characteristics. These are the reason why nearly all fruit trees
are grafted.

You should be able to find a wholesale nursery, and find out what
rootstock they use. They may even be able to tell you the fruiting
characteristics, and tell you where they sell them.



as an inexpensive way to get started
with fruit trees in an area out back it
was enough inspiration so that we're going
to work on it (may take a few years to get
going).

to get the fruit tree bugs and predators
established i thought it would be also a
good thing to start seedlings even if there
aren't any sure hopes of getting edible
fruits, perhaps most of them will be inedible
or bait for deer. being persistent as i am
will pay off eventually.

the problem is the whole area is clay and
can be fairly wet at times. any seeds/trees
will have to adapt to that.


Yes but only if you give them a fighting chance. Do NOT plant them in
holes, as these will become ponds and the trees will die.

if i can gradually get the whole back
area converted to mixed fruit trees and the
understory supporting plants over the course
of the next 20-30 years that will be some
fun.

having some grafting root stock to
work with will be a side benefit. green
apples can be a source of pectin. fruit
woods are nice to work with for furniture
or as a source of aromatic woods for
grilling.


If you know how to do grafting then at least start with a bud that is of
known good fruiting ability.

the questions a from seeds, time to
actual production for: apples, cherries,
peaches, apricots and pears?


4-5 years

D
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Ecnerwal wrote:
....
Had a good illustration today of the benefits of odd-colored fruit. I'm
a sweet cherry addict living on the hairy edge of ability to grow the
things. Had some fruit this year - red tree picked clean by marauders
(presumably winged) but the yellow tree was largely untouched.

i think the birds/critters will figure
it out eventually.


Songbird, you might also want to put some nut trees in your thinking
cap. Then again, those often just end up being squirrel food, even if
you try to make them not be.

there are oak trees along the northern edge
for acorns. the squirrels stay mostly over
there. which is as desired. they rarely come
into the yard where the hawks can get them.

i may wedge a few nut trees in eventually, but
the main idea is to add fruit trees as those are
much easier to process.


songbird

Billy wrote:
....
You should be able to find a wholesale nursery, and find out what
rootstock they use. They may even be able to tell you the fruiting
characteristics, and tell you where they sell them.

buying grafted trees or root stock would
be like taking out a loan to buy alfalfa to
feed the deer (deer fast food? ).


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
...
You should be able to find a wholesale nursery, and find out what
rootstock they use. They may even be able to tell you the fruiting
characteristics, and tell you where they sell them.

buying grafted trees or root stock would
be like taking out a loan to buy alfalfa to
feed the deer (deer fast food? ).


songbird

When you settle on fruit wood, you still may want an appropriate root
stock.

http://www.davewilson.com/product-information-general/rootstock
Fruit & Nut Tree Rootstocks

http://www.davewilson.com/product-information-general/rootstock/apple

Apple Rootstocks
Note: rootstock descriptions are for reference only. Dave Wilson Nursery
does not offer rootstock for sale.

Domestic Apple

Most rugged rootstock for apples. Vigorous, deep-rooted, cold-hardy.
Tolerates wet soil, dry soil, poor soil. Unpruned tree height of
standard varieties 18' to 30 feet. Trees on apple seedling may be held
to any desired height by summer pruning.
M-111

Excellent all-around rootstock for apples. Induces early and heavy
bearing. Tolerates wet soil, dry soil, poor soil. Resists woolly apple
aphids and collar rot. Trees dwarfed to 85 % of standard.
M-27

Extremely dwarfing rootstock for apples. Trees dwarfed to 6-8 ft, ideal
for high density planting, small spaces in garden. Induces early and
heavy bearing. Small root system, young trees may need staking. Good for
container growing.
M-7 & M-7A

Dwarfs to 65% of standard. Induces early and heavy bearing. Resistant to
fireblight, powdery mildew, moderately resistant to collar rot. Good
anchorage. Very winter hardy, widely adapted. Disadvantage: prone to
suckering.
M-9

Advantages: dwarfs trees to 40 to 45% of seedling size, increases fruit
size, may slightly advance maturity. Disadvantages: susceptible to
fireblight and wooly apple aphid, trees must be supported, shallow root
system may be drought sensitive.
Mark

Trees dwarfed to half of standard size. Resists fireblight and
phytophthora root rot. Well anchored, no staking required. Few or no
suckers. Trees bear so heavily that thinning is essential to control
stress on tree. Requires fertile soil, constant moisture. Not presently
used by Dave Wilson Nursery.
BUD-9

Dwarfing to 1/3 of Standard. Approximate height to 10', width to 6'.
Resistant to Phytopthera. Excellent precocity & cold hardiness. Good for
container growing.




Cherry Rootstocks
Peach, Plum & Hybrid Rootstocks
Pear Rootstocks
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg