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#106
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garden police gone wild?
On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 11:09:43 -0400, Ann wrote:
Tom J expounded: This entire thread remains clueless except for some insight by Vox.... Sorry, but I find Vox to be as rabid as Paghat on this one. OK Ann, but living in a communality with hundreds of HOA's I see none of the rantings validated. |
#107
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garden police gone wild?
"paghat" wrote in message newsaghat- The vast majority of Homeowner Associations automatically reject Jews. And there's no Once Upon A Time about it, blacks & jews & gays know full well that if they attempt to move into a HOA and have to pass a committee's idea of proper muster, they're gonna be weeded out. I'm having trouble with this assertion myself, Paghat. That HOA place we lived in Montgomery Village? We're Jewish and so we many of our neighbors. (Not the NAN neighbor though s.) Unless most of the rest of the country is very different (which could be, I suppose...our area was voted by Utne Mag as the most enlightened area to live in the country) and I'm just very naive... |
#108
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garden police gone wild?
"paghat" wrote in message news In article , Rico wrote: [CLIPPED, some EXCELLENT stuff for a change! -- & what a relief to see that not EVERYone is a head-in-hole Vox type! I will keep unclipped only what I reply to, but anyone of intelligence will want to have read it all.] I've never heard of a Christian housing district. Are you sure of your facts? The vast majority of Homeowner Associations automatically reject Jews. Saint Ole's original wordings & recommendations for how to form a neighborhood corporation free of anyone but Christian whites even prohibited Hindus, as if that were any great worry in San Clemente. And how do they know someone is a jew? Are they checking some part of the anatomy? The would be the first clue to not move in...... The racist, christian, conspirasy-theory organization "Retaking America" which is worried about the One World Government's desire to force integration of God's people with mud people, Your bigotry is showing.... today still promotes Homeowner Associations as a key weapon for the continuing & express purpose of keeping neighborhoods exclusively white & "their kind" of christian. Their charters of incorporation don't have to say all buyers must be White Christian Patriots, but the purpose is fulfilled. Of course when the Kamias Christian Homeowners Association named themselves that, wanting their neighborhood to be exclusively Christian, they didn't consciously want to be racists also, but that's the effect of it, & whether they achieve a racist outcome "naturally" as part of their ingrained culture or consciously as lunatics like those Retaking American crackpots, it's ultimately the same thing. So Hickery Woods Homeowner Association in Kentucky is Lutherans only, & "coincidentally" whites only. Meadowglen Homeowners Association of Michigan is a humongous & Christian enclave with something like six Christian denominations represented. Apache Wells Homeowners Assoication even puts in their charter that they're Christian only (most wouldn't admit in their charters as it gives something to sue over). There is an all-white Christian HOA in Washington DC right hemmed in by integrated & predominantly black neighborhoods, if I recall it's called Brickland or Broadland HOA. The county government's round-about efforts to get that ultra-racist Houston Homeowners Association (George Bush was formerly their explicit pal while governor, though not standing up for them lately) has Christian Patriots as their primary backers & fundraisers to help fight against the county for the continued right to be racists & enforce their own discriminatory housing. The three things that "just happen" to be true of 99% of Homeowner Associations is they're white, they're racist, & they purport to be christian. Home Schooling, Christian Patriot, & Homeowner Association -- they go together for the white separatist worldview. But I wasn't addressing the far-right wacko versions. The NORMATIVE Homeowner Association IS epitomized by the Palicido del Mar, since Saint Ole set it up as THE model & all across America whites who could afford to, & worried blacks ruined their "property values," set them up for overtly racistpurposes. There are rare & occasional exceptions. Brickle Homeowner Association, an enormous enclave in Miami, defines itself as "Christ Centered." But they are racially very integrated & work consciously to not be the horrifying monstrously racist things that Homeowner Associations generally are. There's no Jews or Hindus of course, but they'd likely welcome any who'd convert, but it's a long way from Saint Ole's original plan for what HOAs were supposed to do, & what most of them in fact do. it can even be "gated" with a guard at the front gate to protect middleclass whities from "crime" which is a code-word for "******s." People can get into these developments posed as joggers, and still rob people that have let their guard down -- BECAUSE of the gate and the guard. In the final analysis, it's unclear whether gated subdivisions are more secure. Of course they're no safer. They're also LESS moral, LESS decent, MORE corrupt & disgusting -- but they like to THINK they're safer & moral & all that stuff they're not. One would hope that what they are are targets. It makes it legal to be upfront & openly judgemental about why the mixed-race family is rejected from buying into the given community, & if they think they should have the right to sue over discrimination, tough. This was prior to Shelley v. Kraemer, although I will agree that this legacy of exclusion has had effects that persist to the present. http://www.lectlaw.com/files/case33.htm The Shlley v Kraemer case was very limited in its effect, it essentially turned everything back to the states, most of which have done nothing about it to this very day, though since California began taking action in 1998/99, a few other states (or counties within states) have followed; things are changing right now. Shelly v Kraemer opened avenues for potentially good new legislation that just never came about. As did a 1966 case of even greater importance that theoretically banned racist covenants but racist covenants exist to this day & are enforced. The Shelly v Kraemer case impacted only lands that were bequeathed to government entities, & did settle once & for all that racist covenants did not have to be honored by government entities. And it provided a citation to attempt to apply the same standard in other circumstances, but unless cases with additional contexts were actually brought to courts, nothing really changes. In the 60s such cases as Shelly v Kraemer were repeatedly cited for a broading body of case law that prohibits public businesses & all sorts of public as well as governmental entities from discrimination, but did not greatly impact private clubs or incorporated semi-autonomus housing communities. A huge body of case law that was state by state rather than federal undermines the "right" or "privilege" to discriminate, but none of it changed the reality of racist HOAs. Nevertheless, the victims don't have to sue. There are government agencies that will handle the situation, like the state Fair Employment and Housing Commission. http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/s...-6841242c.html If this origin has changed slightly over time, & such enclaves are no longer fully dominated by the initial purpose to keep racism legal, it is only different insofar as there are now Chinese housing associations here in Washington, & lots of them in California wherein only middleclass Latin Americans are permitted to buy homes. It is true that HOAs proliferated when they had become *the* main vehicle to achieve racial discrimination in housing. Today, however, anyone that's prevented from buying housing on the basis of national origin, in California, can contact the Department of Fair Employment and Housing. http://www.dfeh.ca.gov/ This does not impact the "right" of HOAs to continue racist policies though it makes it harder (in California at least) to foreclose on houses of unwanted residents by fining them unjustly. It's one of a half-dozen things that since 1998 have begun to whittle at, but my no means remove, the "right" for HOAs to have racist policies, & this whittling is being done state by state rather than federally (though some of the in-progress cases may eventually reach the Supreme Court). California now has a half dozen methods to "fight back" against racist HOA behavior, but cases have to be taken selectively & proceed slowly. Senator Nakano's bill now permits anti-racists within HOAs to sue the racists who run the places, & Inouye's bill prohbits HUD funding & the like going into these racist enclaves though they don't have to change their policies if they don't take the funding. None of these tools have even started to cause places like Placido del Mar to permit their enclaves to become integrated. They'll go down in flames first. And to make matters worse, there's no evidence that homeowner associations protect property values. They're set up using that purpose as justification for creating them. The effect on "property value" was always merley a code-word for "come join us if you're racist *******s too." Obviously a community full of racist *******s is NEVER the ideal place to live & the fact that those *******s run the places means they're worth less than they could've been. I won't common on the rest below, but leave it unclipped, as some of it really has an echo of hope in it -- especially that bit about real estate companies now advertising "No HOAs!" as a marketing plus. It was a marketing plus when Granny Artemis & I were looking for our home. When I realized I could not stand to leave the city for a town UNLESS i could find an integrated town (fortunately there are many of those to choose from around here), this automatically ruled out HOA ruled enclaves because having grown up in a mixed race (& mixed faith) family, I was totally creeped out by 100% honky neighborhoods. -paggers In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. As more and more HOAs are created, and more and more people relate their experiences, people are getting wind that homebuyers pay for 'pretty' with oppression-by-adhesion-contract, and you can get 'pretty' without the oppression. The uniform "beige" town (city) of Cary, NC, establishes that local governments can be as persnickety as associations, and that associations are unnecessary. That's why "The term 'No HOA' is starting to crop up in real estate classified ads in the Phoenix area, where almost all new homes are built under an association's wing. 'For most people it is a real selling point,' says Rachel Linden, an agent with Coldwell Banker Success Realty. 'Homeowners associations can be a real pain in the butt.' " [Kiplinger Magazine, September, 2000] "[T]oo many developers are more concerned with the immediate marketing of a property and not long-term value potential." http://money.cnn.com/2002/03/15/pf/y...dcom/index.htm Moreover, as housing with no HOAs becomes more scarce, relative to housing with HOAs -- something that is clearly happening http://members.cox.net/concernedhomeowners/NmbrHOAs.htm the values of homes in jurisdictions governed by HOAs will decrease, relative to those of homes in jurisdictions not governed by HOAs. Not only don't HOAs protect property values now, they cannot protect their values from the "invisible hand" -- the inevitable effects of the free market forces of supply and demand. -- "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher. "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature. -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers" See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/ |
#109
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garden police gone wild?
In article , Tom J
wrote: On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 11:09:43 -0400, Ann wrote: Tom J expounded: This entire thread remains clueless except for some insight by Vox.... Sorry, but I find Vox to be as rabid as Paghat on this one. OK Ann, but living in a communality with hundreds of HOA's I see none of the rantings validated. Some people don't HAVE to care, so never even bother to look. You don't see what you couldn't care less about. Tell me what single community has HUNDREDS of HOAs while you're at it. By HUNDREDS you mean 200 HOAs right in your neighborhood? Three or four hundred? Six hundred? Should be easy for you to name 10% of them then, or grab your Yellow Pages & list the ones that start with "S" -- that should be a good 20 out of 200 right there. Shit, ignorant people demanding & getting from me specifics of real situtations with names & places named, & STILL persist in preferring the myths you make up as you go along. It must be damned hard work to stay ignorant in a world with such easy access to information. -paghat -- "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher. "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature. -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers" See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/ |
#110
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garden police gone wild?
In article , "Julia Green"
wrote: "paghat" wrote in message newsaghat- The vast majority of Homeowner Associations automatically reject Jews. And there's no Once Upon A Time about it, blacks & jews & gays know full well that if they attempt to move into a HOA and have to pass a committee's idea of proper muster, they're gonna be weeded out. I'm having trouble with this assertion myself, Paghat. That HOA place we lived in Montgomery Village? We're Jewish and so we many of our neighbors. (Not the NAN neighbor though s.) Unless most of the rest of the country is very different (which could be, I suppose...our area was voted by Utne Mag as the most enlightened area to live in the country) and I'm just very naive... Some places like Seattle & Monterey, apparently also where you live, have fully integrated HOAs & a policy to stay so. Others are just "automatically" Jew Free without trying, & if a non-observant Jew wanted to buy a house there, likely no one would even ask -- observant Jews would no better than to try where there's no synogogue within fifty miles. But intentinonally integrated HOAs the a distinct minority, & even some of those, like the Miami integrated HOA, is for Christians only, of any race. When the majority do advertise "Christian living" or at least distribute lists of churches to prospective buyers, they're doing what they can to keep YOU aware you might be comfier someplace else. Would YOU have guessed a regular old Marin County HOA would expend months of volunteer energy & easily get 600 signatures practically overnight in their desire to stop Orthodox Jews from living just outside the boundaries of their HOA -- as their first excuse for their behavior, a fear that Orthodox Jews will be racing their cars through the neighborhoods on Saturday while children play! When that one didn't wash, they had a back-up preposterous excuse: synogogues are noisy. It's not like Marin County is famously KKK dominated -- these were just "regular" Christian people who couldn't stand the idea of a tiny handful of Jews in the next neighborhood over. It indeed sounds just too ignorant to be true, but it's what happened, it's what the Lucas Valley HOA expended all that energy attempting to do (& failing, but causing a lot of unwanted expense & grief not getting their way -- except they did get their way because now more Jews know not to try to buy into HOA districts). This sort of thing is not all one-way, though Jews who avoid living with black folks don't usually try to incorporate their neighborhood, so it's not an issue of HOA racism. I lived in the Jewish Maplewood district of Seattle for years, in walking distance of a synogogue, with several delis, but over time the neighborhood became black. The older community began to close their businesses, finally closed the synogogue & built a new one on Mercer Island, & all the observant Jews sold their houses within an 18-month period & movedto Mercer Island to a Black Free zone. Even those of us who were very little observant or not at all, who remained longest, slowly wandered on, because a neighborhood full of catfish joints & soul burgers wasn't quite the same as neighborhood delis & latkes a short walk away. When I run into friends from that no-longer-Jewish old neighborhood, I used to ask, "Why'd everyone have to leave all of a sudden?" There could've been lots of answer, the neighborhood really had deteriorated, the high school kids in one of the city's largest high schools could be a nuisance. But the answer was never complex; it was always one word only: "Shfartza!" So it's not only goyim who have deeply ingrained very bad attitudes; & it's true these sorry-ass attitudes don't make everyone awful in every aspect of their lives. But being one church or synogogue at a time in need of a greater moral tolerance is quite different than incorporating a neighborhood so that bigotry can have a little weight of law behind it to sustain. HOAs would not exist today if the primary intent was to make sure everyone mowed their lawn often enough. It is quite a complicated procedure to incorporate a neighborhood as a semi-independent self-governing body, & the ONLY privileges they have that one doesn't have outside the reach of the HOA is they get to personally level fines against people rather than having the fire department do it on the basis of city or county regulations instead of HOA rules, & they get to assess who their neighbors are permitted to be before sales are final, thereby voiding the majority of Civil Rights gains. Obviously blacks get it LOTSworse than Jews, & especially as a non-observant Jew it becomes easy to be 100% assimilated & buddies primarily with goyim, including even goyim who have issues with blacks but think we're just fine. But when these enclaves define themselves as Christian and/or advertise how many churches their community has (INVARIABLY leaving off the lists the only synogogue & the only Buddhist temple), the message is pretty damned clear without them having to be more explicit. That HOAs do additionally commonly ban together to harrass nearby minorities may be outside the law, but is certainly a related manner, as when the Placido del Mar broke tirelessly harrassed an elderly Malaysian woman, from spraypainting warnings on her house to breaking a water main beside her house & refusing to fix it, & only after ten years of this kind of continuous hate-tactics was the government finally forced to move against the HOA. If you think these same people LIKE Jews, you've clearly made it easy for them to not notice you are one, in the same way faggots & dykes learn to keep heads down. Which is not to say you might be wonderfully lucky to live in a genuinely liberal area, & no reason to look TOO hard for another underlying reality. -paghat the ratgirl -- "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher. "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature. -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers" See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/ |
#111
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garden police gone wild?
In article ,
"john wardle" wrote: "paghat" wrote in message news In article , Rico wrote: [CLIPPED, some EXCELLENT stuff for a change! -- & what a relief to see that not EVERYone is a head-in-hole Vox type! I will keep unclipped only what I reply to, but anyone of intelligence will want to have read it all.] I've never heard of a Christian housing district. Are you sure of your facts? The vast majority of Homeowner Associations automatically reject Jews. Saint Ole's original wordings & recommendations for how to form a neighborhood corporation free of anyone but Christian whites even prohibited Hindus, as if that were any great worry in San Clemente. And how do they know someone is a jew? Are they checking some part of the anatomy? The would be the first clue to not move in...... The racist, christian, conspirasy-theory organization "Retaking America" which is worried about the One World Government's desire to force integration of God's people with mud people, today still promotes Homeowner Associations as a key weapon for the continuing & express purpose of keeping neighborhoods exclusively white & "their kind" of christian. Your bigotry is showing.... I'm just a little surprised you'd define disliking an avowedly racist movement (which supports HOAs because HOAs is a short-cut to preserving their right to enforce discrimination in an entire neighborhood) as itself bigotted. Okay, i LOVE bigots, I hope my neighborhood FILLS UP with bigots. If I refuse to attend their queer-bashing party or don't take my turn burning crosses on a black family's lawn, am I still a bigot not to help out? I know, I know, you were being satiric, & you don't share Retaking AMerica's conviction that Black & Jewish Mud People, assisted by the United Nations, are taking over America. But the creepier sorts participating in this thread are going to think you weren't pretending & that you're a complete dunderhead like themselves! However, when Retaking America came out against "evil" King Bush II, Master of the One World Order, for waging war because of pretend-weopons of destruction, I had this creepy feeling that I agreed with them about something -- as creepy as the VERY LAST TIME i ever showed up to picket against an offensive film & found that that Holy Rollers were also picketing it. Inducing me to buy a ticket. The film turned out to be okay. -paghat the ratgirl -- "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher. "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature. -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers" See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/ |
#112
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garden police gone wild?
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#113
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garden police gone wild?
Tom J expounded:
OK Ann, but living in a communality with hundreds of HOA's I see none of the rantings validated. Oh, the racial stuff? No, I've seen none of that around here, either, I'd say at least the whole of the east coast, from Virginia on up, there isn't any of that going on. She's always over the top on her prejudice issues of any race or creed. -- Ann, Gardening in zone 6a Just south of Boston, MA ******************************** |
#114
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garden police gone wild?
On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 09:30:49 -0700, Tom J
wrote: communality damn speil chicker! |
#115
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garden police gone wild?
"paghat" wrote in message Would YOU have guessed a regular old Marin County HOA would expend months of volunteer energy & easily get 600 signatures practically overnight in their desire to stop Orthodox Jews from living just outside the boundaries of their HOA -- as their first excuse for their behavior, a fear that Orthodox Jews will be racing their cars through the neighborhoods on Saturday while children play! That is truly bizarre! But when these enclaves define themselves as Christian and/or advertise how many churches their community has (INVARIABLY leaving off the lists the only synogogue & the only Buddhist temple), the message is pretty damned clear without them having to be more explicit. Whenever I see anything defining themselves as "Christian", I'm afraid my prejudices come to the fore. I have an extremely gut-negative response! My experiences with people who make a big deal about being Christian is that they are anything *but. Yuck. If you think these same people LIKE Jews, you've clearly made it easy for them to not notice you are one, in the same way faggots & dykes learn to keep heads down. We've always had a mezuzah on our door wherever we've lived. Not terribly noticable I suppose and most people, if they did notice it, wouldn't have any idea what it meant anyway. Where we lived with the HOA also had a synagogue, so, obviously not the typical (if you are right about most of the rest of the country) HOA community. My husband, though, is *stereoypically Jewish looking. Dark, bearded, large aquiline nose, etc. I've run into the occassional redneck out here who has (without knowing I was Jewish) made disparaging comments about Jews, but, overall, this area (with the highest education level in the country and in the top ten for household income) is quite enlightened and diverse. I suppose I do take it for granted at this point and would have a hard time living anywhere else. Which is not to say you might be wonderfully lucky to live in a genuinely liberal area, & no reason to look TOO hard for another underlying reality. Yup. |
#116
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garden police gone wild?
OK Ann, but living in a communality with hundreds of HOA's I see none of the rantings validated. I can't see what's NOT there. I'm aware of over 200 HOA's in Clark County Nevada. I've worked in at least 100 different HOA's in my days as a landscaper. Most use management companies to run their day to day operations. There are at least 10 Synagogues as well as 4 Mosques around the Valley. I've lived in 3 HOA's with Gay, Hindu, Hebrew, Buddhist, Christian, Black, Brown, White, Red and Yellow neighbors. The world still suffers from the horrible abuses of racism.....but not in my front yard. I work for a company that celebrates diversity and encourages diversity. half empty half full, either way ther's a long way to go, I just don't see the world as evil as you. |
#117
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garden police gone wild?
"Tom J" wrote in message ... On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 11:09:43 -0400, Ann wrote: Tom J expounded: This entire thread remains clueless except for some insight by Vox.... Sorry, but I find Vox to be as rabid as Paghat on this one. OK Ann, but living in a communality with hundreds of HOA's I see none of the rantings validated. I agree. I don't see anything rabid in my arguments. If there is some flaw of logic, then address it. To call someone "rabid" because you don't like their viewpoint is simply an ad hominem attack. Out of the 150 homes in my subdivision, only about two or three have any serious, ongoing violations. They are the same two or three people who continue to ignore the contract that they signed at closing. No one comes to meetings. That indicates to me that people aren't upset about the situation. I don't hear any neighbors ranting about the rules. My position on the subject is simple. HOA rules are on file in your county courthouse. You should ask to see a copy before you sign the planned unit development rider at closing. You should talk to the people in the neighboring houses to see what they think about the level of enforcement. You might want to call the management company or board president. If you sign the agreement the you should expect to live by the agreement. In exchange for the restrictions, you have an assurance that your neighborhood will remain as good (or bad) as it was when you moved in. You will probably have the use of some common areas including a pool, tennis courts, playground, and/or clubhouse. Don't expect the basic covenants and restrictions to be changed or abolished. You can participate in the actions of the board and change things like the architectural rules that are at the discretion of the board. HOA are bound by Federal, state, and local civil rights laws. HOAs generally don't get involved with the sale of your home except to specify the type of "for sale" sign that you place in your yard. |
#118
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garden police gone wild?
"paghat" wrote in message news In article , Tom J wrote: On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 11:09:43 -0400, Ann wrote: Tom J expounded: This entire thread remains clueless except for some insight by Vox.... Sorry, but I find Vox to be as rabid as Paghat on this one. OK Ann, but living in a communality with hundreds of HOA's I see none of the rantings validated. Some people don't HAVE to care, so never even bother to look. You don't see what you couldn't care less about. Tell me what single community has HUNDREDS of HOAs while you're at it. By HUNDREDS you mean 200 HOAs right in your neighborhood? Three or four hundred? Six hundred? Should be easy for you to name 10% of them then, or grab your Yellow Pages & list the ones that start with "S" -- that should be a good 20 out of 200 right there. Someone mentioned that they lived in an area called Montgomery Village that had a lot of HOAs. If you go to the Montgomery County HOA page you will see a list of over 800 HOA listed. http://www.communitiesonline.org/sta...ontgomery/hoa/ |
#119
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garden police gone wild?
"Vox Humana" wrote in message Someone mentioned that they lived in an area called Montgomery Village that had a lot of HOAs. If you go to the Montgomery County HOA page you will see a list of over 800 HOA listed. http://www.communitiesonline.org/sta...ontgomery/hoa/ Those are HOAs for the entire *county of Montgomery. It's in Maryland and is a suburb of DC. |
#120
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garden police gone wild?
On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 05:26:57 -0700, Tom J wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 05:30:48 -0400, Ann wrote: Now you've taken this a bit over the top. NOW?!! This entire thread remains clueless except for some insight by Vox.... Paggers is clueless and ranting IMO. Pepsi through the nose. Thanks! BTW, on my second batch of tea. I'm impressed. |
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