(Nick Maclaren) wrote in message ...


pH is meaningful only for compounds that ionise; alcohol is not
one such, unless my memory is at fault. Coffee is not particularly
acid. And acid stomach contents tend to get neutralised as they pass
further down the gut, though I don't know the mechanisms, which is
why bacteria can live in our intestine at all.

I don't know who first invented the pseudo-science that you are
quoting, but I have seen it before, and it is complete nonsense.
So, I am pretty certain, is the theory that humans can thrive for
a few decades with no vitamin B-12 intake at all.


It is not pseudoscience - it is an hypothesis. The facts are

1) vegan groups where B12 deficiency is absent
2) B12 deficiency being a proven fact
3) animal (including human) waste containing very large amounts of B12
4) other animals apparently being able to manufacture their B12 and
turning into B12 sources for us

Feel free to incorporate all of these facts into any theory.

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in message ...

I don't know who first invented the pseudo-science that you are
quoting, but I have seen it before, and it is complete nonsense.

PS. If you look at the original post, it say "One hypothesis is...".
Is english your second language?

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In article ,
(simy1) writes:
| (Nick Maclaren) wrote in message ...
|
| pH is meaningful only for compounds that ionise; alcohol is not
| one such, unless my memory is at fault. Coffee is not particularly
| acid. And acid stomach contents tend to get neutralised as they pass
| further down the gut, though I don't know the mechanisms, which is
| why bacteria can live in our intestine at all.
|
| I don't know who first invented the pseudo-science that you are
| quoting, but I have seen it before, and it is complete nonsense.
| So, I am pretty certain, is the theory that humans can thrive for
| a few decades with no vitamin B-12 intake at all.
|
| It is not pseudoscience - it is an hypothesis. The facts are
|
| 1) vegan groups where B12 deficiency is absent
| 2) B12 deficiency being a proven fact
| 3) animal (including human) waste containing very large amounts of B12
| 4) other animals apparently being able to manufacture their B12 and
| turning into B12 sources for us
|
| Feel free to incorporate all of these facts into any theory.

Such as the one that both coffee and alcohol have a low pH, in
the context of the digestive tract?

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH).

But perhaps it was some other that posted that.

And, yes, it was the pseudo-science that coffee and alcohol have a
low pH and it is that aspect of them that disturbs our gut flora
that I was referring to. As I said, it goes back a long time
(decades) and was known to be nonsense when it was perpetrated.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in message ...
for
| a few decades with no vitamin B-12 intake at all.
|
| It is not pseudoscience - it is an hypothesis. The facts are
|
| 1) vegan groups where B12 deficiency is absent
| 2) B12 deficiency being a proven fact
| 3) animal (including human) waste containing very large amounts of B12
| 4) other animals apparently being able to manufacture their B12 and
| turning into B12 sources for us
|
| Feel free to incorporate all of these facts into any theory.

Such as the one that both coffee and alcohol have a low pH, in
the context of the digestive tract?

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH).


I see what you are saying. Yes, the hypothesis that it is the acidity
has not been proven. It could be anything. On that you are right. Or,
if I nderstand it, you were objecting to my second post and not first.

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In article ,
(simy1) writes:
|
| Such as the one that both coffee and alcohol have a low pH, in
| the context of the digestive tract?
|
| The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
| an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH).
|
| I see what you are saying. Yes, the hypothesis that it is the acidity
| has not been proven. It could be anything. On that you are right. Or,
| if I nderstand it, you were objecting to my second post and not first.

Correct.

But it is so far from not having been proven that it is known to be
incorrect. It was even when I first saw it, some decades back.

Not merely does neither have a low pH (and alcohol doesn't really
have one, as such), most of the reasons for their effects on gut
flora are known, and it isn't their alkalinity or acidity.

Alcohol (specifically ethanol) has a direct effect on most
organisms and, at a sufficient level, is a very effective
bacteriostat. I can't remember if the same is true for caffeine,
but it is certainly true for tannins.

There is an indirect effect that, in some people, both alcohol
and caffeine stimulate the production of acid in the stomach,
but the same applies to many other foods.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:51:33 GMT, "Mike Stevenson"
wrote:

For one stomach acid rarely leaves the stomach. When it does its due to
disorders of the digestive tract such as acid reflux disease. Stomach acid
does not pass into the small and large intestines where these bacteria live.
As to the PH of alcohol HE did not establish it. Ph tests do, you can visit
a number of websites if you like and see the Phs for things such as grain
alchohol and wine and find that they tend to be very low, a good quality
Syrah has a Ph of 3.53 as published on the makers website. A good Merlot has
a similar pH of 3.52. Wines contain tannins, or Tartaric ACID. Coffee
contains tannins, as does tea. Alcohols made from grains (including beer)
contains some levels of tannin, and other acidic compounds.

Yes. So how it is that the GI tract is routinely capable of
neutralizing the very strong acid HCl before it enters the small
intestine but incapable of neutralizing the much weaker organic acids
in foods and beverages? Why is it that I should worry about coffee
and "alcohol" but not worry about the much more strongly acidic fresh
fruits, juices, and condiments? Lemonade anyone? Vinagrette?
Chipotles en escabeche'?

As another poster noted, my point is that alcohol (ethanol) DOES NOT
HAVE A pH. Consequently, neither I nor you nor the OP will find
"grain alcohol" to have a low pH.

The pH of wine is not a property of its alcohol content. The grapes
were acidic before picking or fermenting. Should one forgo grapes as
well? Tannins are not related to tartaric acid. Tannins are very
easily and strongly bound to proteins and as such are probably not
very available to dissociate. Unless they do, they too, will have no
pH. Once dissociated, they will seize almost any available protein
once again become unavailable. They are present in most fruit skins.
Must we peel our grapes?

As to the various claims regarding B-12 producing populations in the
human gut, I don't know but I doubt it. It has been too many years
since I studied anything related. (I do recall that the technology to
measure B12 has become more sophisticated and accurate )

What makes me skeptical is that when one confects a mixture of
improbable, unlikely, and plainly erroneous material as the
scaffolding on which to build a theory of nutrition, its difficult to
admire the soaring ediface while ignoring the rotten foundation, so to
speak. If I want to acquire B12 in my diet "naturally", it will be
most easily obtained from animal protein or milk products. If one
chooses a more limited diet, then "artificial, chemical, manufactured"
supplements will help the "natural, organic, whole" diet.

By the by, last night's Talisker on the rocks had a pH (measured on a
really cheap meter, not a lab instrument) of 8+. No doubt due to the
fact that our local water has a pH in the 7.9-8.5 vicinity, depending
on time of year. So, say 6 orders of magnitude less "acidic" than my
stomach.

Hi, I would really like to get hold of some of this Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+), but I live in the UK and can only find it available in America. Does anyone know where I can get this in the UK (or a site that will send it to the UK without charging a forune)?

I'd be really grateful if anyone can help me )

Thanks very much,
Natalie.