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#1
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Hi.
I planted some Sagittaria and Vallisneria about 6 months ago and they were growing great for a couple of months. Most of them even produced a number of baby plant shoots. But for the past several months, the baby shoots as well as the original plants have not been growing much. The daughter plants got to about 2 inches and just stopped growing. I have a 75 gallon tank with these plants as well as 3 large Amazon Swords, some Annubias, Java Fern, Melon Sword, and some Onion bulbs. My plants look good but not like I want them to. I use Florish liquid 2 or 3 times per week as well as the carbon and some Potassium about once per week. For lighting I have 2 40 watt tubes... 1) 10000K and one CoralLife Nutra Grow Plant lamp. This gives me 80 watts for my 75 gallon. Should I have more light and what would be a better combination? I have Florite for the substrate. For filter I have one Ehiem Professional II 2028 with surface extractor. The filter contains Black Diamond carbon on the bottom tray, the ceramic tubes on the second, and the course rock on the top along with the sponge seperators. I also added some floss under the first stage before the water goes through the carbon. How does this sound to you guys? This was recommend from a guy at The Fish Store & More here in Atlanta. I keep the water temperature at 78. That is all I have for circulation. No other power heads. Would you recommend for water current? Also, another question is that my Amazon Swords get algae on their leaves. Most of the leaves are nice, but some of the leaves have started getting algea growth towards the end of the leaves. Its a dark green algea that could almost be described as a sheet of algea. I have trimmed off a handful of the older leaves that were about half covered. I have no algea growth on any rocks, the bottom, or other plants except some algea growth on some of the older Annubias leaves. I have no surface scum. I do have to wipe the inside front of the tank every couple of weeks to remove algea. Just light green stuff. My water stays nice and clear with no green color or discoloration. I do about 15% water change every 2 or 3 weeks. My fish consist of 2 large Angelfish, 6 2" Clown Loaches, several Otto and Chinese algea eater, 5 brochis splendens, 2 medium sized rainbow fish, and a school of 8 of both Serpae and Red-Eye tetras. Oh, and one Whiptail catfish. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. |
#2
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
For lighting I have 2 40 watt
tubes... 1) 10000K and one CoralLife Nutra Grow Plant lamp. This gives me 80 watts for my 75 gallon. That is not enough. That's why your plants aren't growing. I would at least double that light. Another light strip, a shop light, something. I suspect your algae problem will go away once your lighting is adequate. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#3
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Hi, Thanks for the "more light" advice. I kinda thought that would be
the case. I will buy another fixture today. I wanted to update my post with my current water conditions, before lights come on in the morning. PH = 7.5 KH = 4 NO2 = .3 mg/l GH = ~2 NH3 = .25 mg/l Thanks for the time taken reading my post. Thanks, Jesse |
#4
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
You can probably grow decent sags at that light level, although they will
get tall and be a bit mangy. Thin and space them out regularly to keep light getting into the centers of the clumps. The vals will never make it, though, sorry. kush SlimFlem wrote in message om... Hi. I planted some Sagittaria and Vallisneria about 6 months ago and they were growing great for a couple of months. Most of them even produced a number of baby plant shoots. But for the past several months, the baby shoots as well as the original plants have not been growing much. The daughter plants got to about 2 inches and just stopped growing. I have a 75 gallon tank with these plants as well as 3 large Amazon Swords, some Annubias, Java Fern, Melon Sword, and some Onion bulbs. My plants look good but not like I want them to. I use Florish liquid 2 or 3 times per week as well as the carbon and some Potassium about once per week. For lighting I have 2 40 watt tubes... 1) 10000K and one CoralLife Nutra Grow Plant lamp. This gives me 80 watts for my 75 gallon. Should I have more light and what would be a better combination? I have Florite for the substrate. For filter I have one Ehiem Professional II 2028 with surface extractor. The filter contains Black Diamond carbon on the bottom tray, the ceramic tubes on the second, and the course rock on the top along with the sponge seperators. I also added some floss under the first stage before the water goes through the carbon. How does this sound to you guys? This was recommend from a guy at The Fish Store & More here in Atlanta. I keep the water temperature at 78. That is all I have for circulation. No other power heads. Would you recommend for water current? Also, another question is that my Amazon Swords get algae on their leaves. Most of the leaves are nice, but some of the leaves have started getting algea growth towards the end of the leaves. Its a dark green algea that could almost be described as a sheet of algea. I have trimmed off a handful of the older leaves that were about half covered. I have no algea growth on any rocks, the bottom, or other plants except some algea growth on some of the older Annubias leaves. I have no surface scum. I do have to wipe the inside front of the tank every couple of weeks to remove algea. Just light green stuff. My water stays nice and clear with no green color or discoloration. I do about 15% water change every 2 or 3 weeks. My fish consist of 2 large Angelfish, 6 2" Clown Loaches, several Otto and Chinese algea eater, 5 brochis splendens, 2 medium sized rainbow fish, and a school of 8 of both Serpae and Red-Eye tetras. Oh, and one Whiptail catfish. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. |
#5
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Per recommendations of several people and the LFS, I bought a Compact
Flor light. It has 2 10000K and 2 6500K. Each bulb is 65 watts. I also kept one of the standard strip lights in the front of the tank with a plant bulb in it. I did this mainly to ensure my Mellon Sword has enough light. I think it is a 6500K as well. The tank is much brighter, but not too bright. For the PH, the local LFS recommened I bring it down to 6.5. I am using SeaChem's Stabilizer and Discus Buffer to do this. My Anglefish and Loaches should enjoy the lower PH and the plants should respond better as well. -jesse (SlimFlem) wrote in message . com... Hi, Thanks for the "more light" advice. I kinda thought that would be the case. I will buy another fixture today. I wanted to update my post with my current water conditions, before lights come on in the morning. PH = 7.5 KH = 4 NO2 = .3 mg/l GH = ~2 NH3 = .25 mg/l Thanks for the time taken reading my post. Thanks, Jesse |
#6
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Per recommendations of several people and the LFS, I bought a Compact
Flor light. It has 2 10000K and 2 6500K. Each bulb is 65 watts. I also kept one of the standard strip lights in the front of the tank with a plant bulb in it. I did this mainly to ensure my Mellon Sword has enough light. I think it is a 6500K as well. The tank is much brighter, but not too bright. Yikes! Four 65 W PCFs over a 75 gallon tank is a *lot* of light. Plus the strip light! That's too much! If you're going to have 4x65W of light over this tank, you need a compressed CO2 system. It's *not* optional. Until you get a compressed CO2 system set up, turn off half the lights. Two 65W bulbs will be plenty over this tank. For the PH, the local LFS recommened I bring it down to 6.5. I am using SeaChem's Stabilizer and Discus Buffer to do this. My Anglefish and Loaches should enjoy the lower PH and the plants should respond better as well. Either you misunderstood what they told you, or they don't know what they are talking about. Lower the pH in and of itself does not help plants. Adding CO2 lowers pH, and it's the CO2 that the plants need. Lowering the pH by other means is useless. To repeat, use only half your new lights until you get a compressed CO2 system set up. There *is* such a thing as too much light! Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#7
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
For filter I have one Ehiem Professional II 2028 with surface
extractor. The filter contains Black Diamond carbon on the bottom tray, the ceramic tubes on the second, and the course rock on the top along with the sponge seperators. I also added some floss under the first stage before the water goes through the carbon. If you are injecting CO2, then you should consider more lighting. About 1 watt per gallon in a non-injected tank is ok, and 2-4 watts per gallon in an injected tank. IME, as plants grow in, and lamps age, more lighting may be needed than was initially the case when the tank is first set up. So, initially your 80 watts might have been minimally enough light. Now, it may not be. I am not sure how much Flourish you are adding. Are you checking your iron levels? There are test kits available that can give you a rough idea of how much iron is in the water. I use this level as a guide to whether I need to add more "micronutrient" fertilizer (i.e., Flourish or Tropica Master Grow) or not. With a relatively low light level, I would be surprised if you need to add Flourish three times a week. If your iron is around .1 ppm, then you need not add fertilizer. If you have a lot more than this, then you are probably overdosing. (Seachem makes a good iron test kit.) Change your water more often, and change more of it. If you have not discovered the python, this is a beautiful tool. It makes water changes much easier. I would change 40 to 50 percent of your tank water once per week. The sheet algae you mention sounds like blue-green slime algae, which is actually a bacteria. If it is indeed blue green algae, it normally rubs off of your plants and tank equipment quite easily. Typically, this type of algae kinda smells bad too. Erythromycin and other antibiotics can treat it, though if you do not get your light and nutrient mix correct it will return. Many claim that low nitrate levels cause blue-green algae to appear. In the case of low nitrate levels, the blue green algae tends to form on the filter return or somewhere that gets air easily. (I understand that this type of bacteria can extract nitrogen from the air directly, and so tends to favor locations where this can happen more easily.) I always recommend Chuck Gadd's site, lots of very good and accessible articles there to help you understand everything from CO2 injection to fertilizing your plants. Check it out: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/. He has an article there about plant nutrients that you should read. He also has an article about dosing your tank with nitrate should it need it. (With the amount of water you are changing and the frequency that you are changing it, I find it hard to believe that you have a shortage of nitrates. Low nitrates are not the only reason blue green algae can appear, but that is a scenario I am familiar with. Other readers may be able to help me understand the circumstances under which blue-green algae occurs.) Also, I would take the carbon out of the filter. Certain important trace elements that you are trying to maintain (by adding Flourish) may well get partially or entirely absorbed by the carbon, especially just after you put new carbon in. I would get rid of the carbon in favor of some of the ceramic loops that Eheim sells. You are really just trying to create a hospitable place for nitrifying bacteria to live. The other filter substrate Eheim sells is probably better for a planted tank, since it accomplishes this without taking out trace elements. |
#8
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
LeighMo wrote ... ...turn off half the lights. Two 65W bulbs will be plenty over this tank. Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. ...Lowering the pH by other means is useless. Much, much, much worse than useless if those products contain phosphates! If you're proposing to fire-up 4.5 watts per gallon over a solution of phosphates and nitrates, you had best be standing by with the scrapers and scouring pads because you are going to be able to watch that algae growing! Don't sweat the pH too much. My 75 gallon is steady at between 7.4 and 7.5 with three soda bottles of CO2 and 220 watts of lighting. The plants are flourishing and need to be pruned back weekly, and I have happy, healthy angelfish. You'll only really need to bring your pH down under 7 if you want to breed your angels. kush "You can't have everything - where would you put it?" |
#9
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#10
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Let me give a little more detail:
The LFS (The Fish Store & More in Atlanta) said with this new light, I should start by having only 8 hours of light per day and gradually increasing it to no more than 12. This will allow the plants time to adjust to the more intense lighting. Also, my tank is not shining like the sun, like some of you might be thinking. Again, the LFS said CO2 injection is not *really* required and all it is said to be just because of high lighting levels. Several of the guys there said they have never used CO2 with high light levels and have always had great results. In addition to using carbon or PuriGen. Thoughts? Concerning the PH, again the LFS said the Angels and Loaches would enjoy the 6.5 more than 7.5. The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to synthisize elements/minerals/etc. better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure. The way I am doing this is by using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad thing? The way I was told to use this product is to follow the ratio on the containers by mixing the product in a jug of my tank water and pouring it back in. This will be done once per week until the PH is at 6.5. Also, after water changes. Does this not sound correct? Why? Would it really hurt to do this? And, my tank is not couldy, the water is crystal clear. It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea breakout from these new lights. The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be robbing it of nutrients. Thoughts please. THanks. tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ... Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#11
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Two thoughts. First, Leigh is right. Four 65 watt lamps is a lot of light
for a non-injected tank. That coupled with the ph adjustment could spell trouble-- and here is why. Normally, ph adjustment products accomplish the ph reset by using a phosphate based ph buffer. This phosphate together with your high light levels could well set up an environment that is ideal for brush algae-- very ugly stuff that is hard to get rid of. These products do not last in the water anyhow. I would not use them. Why not reset your ph the way that has proven itself-- with CO2 injection? Having said these things, I will be very interested to see if all of these ramblings of mine turn out to be correct. I can only tell you what I have seen happen in my tanks-- I used a ph adjuster a long time back, before I was really into heavily planted tanks, for breading (or attempting to breed) harlequin rasboras. I never got the fish to spawn, but I did get all kinds of weird and smelly algae to grow. Please take a look at the web site I recommended. The light fixture you purchased will be perfect for you in the long run after you get CO2 going. On a side note, I did some further research to discover that in addition to the low nitrate scenario I mentioned in a previous post, blue-green algae can form in low oxygen conditions which frequently occur when circulation is poor. You mention you do not have much water movement. Your low light levels, low circulation environment may have caused low oxygen conditions. Improve the circulation, get your new lights going (I recommend 130 watts for now until you get CO2 going) and dose your tank with 200 mg of erythromycin phosphate per 10 gallons of water. This should clear the algae on your swords. -Bruce Geist "SlimFlem" wrote in message om... Let me give a little more detail: The LFS (The Fish Store & More in Atlanta) said with this new light, I should start by having only 8 hours of light per day and gradually increasing it to no more than 12. This will allow the plants time to adjust to the more intense lighting. Also, my tank is not shining like the sun, like some of you might be thinking. Again, the LFS said CO2 injection is not *really* required and all it is said to be just because of high lighting levels. Several of the guys there said they have never used CO2 with high light levels and have always had great results. In addition to using carbon or PuriGen. Thoughts? Concerning the PH, again the LFS said the Angels and Loaches would enjoy the 6.5 more than 7.5. The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to synthisize elements/minerals/etc. better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure. The way I am doing this is by using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad thing? The way I was told to use this product is to follow the ratio on the containers by mixing the product in a jug of my tank water and pouring it back in. This will be done once per week until the PH is at 6.5. Also, after water changes. Does this not sound correct? Why? Would it really hurt to do this? And, my tank is not couldy, the water is crystal clear. It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea breakout from these new lights. The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be robbing it of nutrients. Thoughts please. THanks. tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ... Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#12
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts
a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than it used to. I would say the light from this fixture is much more "focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this? Leigh, looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct. Your tank looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright. If I take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think? Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from All-Glass? Thanks for reading all the ranting, I just want to get my lighting like it should/needs to be. Thanks, Jesse tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ... Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#13
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
SlimFlem wrote ... The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to synthisize elements/minerals/etc. better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure. Mmm, there is something about trace elements precipitating out, which I think is related to total hardness, which is related to pH, but I'm not clear on the chemistry myself. Any water chemistry geeks tuned into this thread? ... using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad thing? This is a really, really bad thing for two reasons. First, you are providing more phosphate than your plants can readily use, thereby encouraging the proliferation of algae. Second, these products do not persist in the aquarium - because your plants and algae are using them, and you're dumping them when you perform water changes - which means you will be perpetually adjusting your water chemistry and struggling to achieve and maintain a desirable equilibrium. ... It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea breakout from these new lights. Yes, we are; from the lights, the phosphates, and the lack of sufficient CO2 (see below). The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be robbing it of nutrients. This COULD be true, provided the plants have everything they need to sustain vigorous growth in the correct balance. Biologic growth is limited by whatever factor is in least supply. If you are providing ample light for photosynthesis and abundant nutrients but the plants lack sufficient CO2, they will not repeat not grow. At the light levels you are proposing (even leaving aside the issue of the phosphates), supplementing with CO2 is NOT optional. With 4.5 watts per gallon and a nutrient-rich water stream, I would start with a minimum of three soda bottles of DIY CO2. Maybe more. Alternatively, I would get a signed and witnessed agreement from your LFS to clean your tank out for you after two months. Tee hee. Regarding the variable lighting schedule, I would recommend against that, too. The goal you are shooting for is to achieve a stable, desirable environment in your tank. The more factors you have to adjust, the harder that will be. I'd recommend a constant equatorial eleven hour day (where the first and last half hour of each day, the sun strikes the water at such an extreme angle that very little light penetrates more than a few inches into the water). kush "You can't have everything - where would you put it?" |
#14
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
I have bad luck with vals, so I'm not going to try to pass myself off as an
authority. I always thought it was the light... hmmf. Certainly, 130 watts over a 75 gallon is plenty for the sags, although they will be taller and not grow as densely as they would with more light. kush LeighMo wrote in message ... Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#15
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Sagittaria & Vallisneria
What kind of reflectors do you have in the hoods?
All-Glass "reflectors" (and I use the term loosely) suck. I retrofitted my 48" hoods with CF bulbs and reflectors from AH Supply. It's AMAZING how much brighter they are with decent reflectors in them. I still use my All-Glass canopy, so I understand what you're asking. They have those little 22" "windows" in them which do somewhat serve to focus the light straight downward. If you were to place your light hoods directly over the tank (like I do when I'm pruning) without using the canopy, I'm sure you would see a big difference. For me, I trade a few watts of dispersed lighting for the convenience of all those slots and hinged openings. kush SlimFlem wrote in message om... Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than it used to. I would say the light from this fixture is much more "focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this? Leigh, looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct. Your tank looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright. If I take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think? Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from All-Glass? Thanks for reading all the ranting, I just want to get my lighting like it should/needs to be. Thanks, Jesse tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ... Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2. My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only 130w. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
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