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#16
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
"Rikko" wrote in message
... This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid providing any sort of time release decay. There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract. They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective. (Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.) In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix). Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#17
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
"Rikko" wrote in message
... This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid providing any sort of time release decay. There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract. They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective. (Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.) In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix). Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#18
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
"Rikko" wrote in message
... This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid providing any sort of time release decay. There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract. They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective. (Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.) In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix). Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#19
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
"Rikko" wrote in message
... This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid providing any sort of time release decay. There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract. They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective. (Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.) In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix). Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#20
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
"Rikko" wrote in message
... This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid providing any sort of time release decay. There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract. They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective. (Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.) In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix). Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#21
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
"Michi Henning" wrote in message ...
"Rikko" wrote in message ... This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid providing any sort of time release decay. There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract. They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective. (Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.) In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix). Cheers, Michi. In order to test the effectiveness of ANY algae cure, you need to make sure you are not limiting the plants. Most aquarist have trouble with that part, and this is why they have the algae in the first place. This is also why is a bad idea and poor approach to plant keeping to focus on the algae and not on the plants. I have done several attempts with barley straw as have two other aquarist that were/are able to provide careful nutrient levels to the plants and also have several species of large epiphytic algae that was in log growth phase and also just stagnant growth. Under non limiting conditions the straw extract and the straw itself had NO IMPACT on the algae. We did not test it on green water but I doubt it will be any different. One thing that the straw does is provide a good place for rotifers and supplies some nutrients to the bacterial loop. Several papers have conflicting reports about it and the assumed active ingredient, peroxide. I think it is useful for ponds in some cases, not all, but having enough macrophytes will also prevent any green water from ever forming so adding more plants versus adding abale of rotting straw seems a bit more logical to me. They also sell straw pellets which sink. General rule: stay away from any algae cures, work on growing the plants well, you will save more money, waste less time and have a better looking tank. Regards, Tom Barr |
#22
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
"Michi Henning" wrote in message ...
"Rikko" wrote in message ... This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid providing any sort of time release decay. There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract. They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective. (Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.) In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix). Cheers, Michi. In order to test the effectiveness of ANY algae cure, you need to make sure you are not limiting the plants. Most aquarist have trouble with that part, and this is why they have the algae in the first place. This is also why is a bad idea and poor approach to plant keeping to focus on the algae and not on the plants. I have done several attempts with barley straw as have two other aquarist that were/are able to provide careful nutrient levels to the plants and also have several species of large epiphytic algae that was in log growth phase and also just stagnant growth. Under non limiting conditions the straw extract and the straw itself had NO IMPACT on the algae. We did not test it on green water but I doubt it will be any different. One thing that the straw does is provide a good place for rotifers and supplies some nutrients to the bacterial loop. Several papers have conflicting reports about it and the assumed active ingredient, peroxide. I think it is useful for ponds in some cases, not all, but having enough macrophytes will also prevent any green water from ever forming so adding more plants versus adding abale of rotting straw seems a bit more logical to me. They also sell straw pellets which sink. General rule: stay away from any algae cures, work on growing the plants well, you will save more money, waste less time and have a better looking tank. Regards, Tom Barr |
#23
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
"Michi Henning" wrote in message ...
"Rikko" wrote in message ... This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid providing any sort of time release decay. There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract. They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective. (Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.) In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix). Cheers, Michi. In order to test the effectiveness of ANY algae cure, you need to make sure you are not limiting the plants. Most aquarist have trouble with that part, and this is why they have the algae in the first place. This is also why is a bad idea and poor approach to plant keeping to focus on the algae and not on the plants. I have done several attempts with barley straw as have two other aquarist that were/are able to provide careful nutrient levels to the plants and also have several species of large epiphytic algae that was in log growth phase and also just stagnant growth. Under non limiting conditions the straw extract and the straw itself had NO IMPACT on the algae. We did not test it on green water but I doubt it will be any different. One thing that the straw does is provide a good place for rotifers and supplies some nutrients to the bacterial loop. Several papers have conflicting reports about it and the assumed active ingredient, peroxide. I think it is useful for ponds in some cases, not all, but having enough macrophytes will also prevent any green water from ever forming so adding more plants versus adding abale of rotting straw seems a bit more logical to me. They also sell straw pellets which sink. General rule: stay away from any algae cures, work on growing the plants well, you will save more money, waste less time and have a better looking tank. Regards, Tom Barr |
#24
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
" wrote in message
om... "Michi Henning" wrote in message ... In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix). One thing that the straw does is provide a good place for rotifers and supplies some nutrients to the bacterial loop. Several papers have conflicting reports about it and the assumed active ingredient, peroxide. Hmmm... Tom, to paraphrase you, you are essentially saying that barley straw may help to reduce algae because it adds nutrients? If I understood that correctly then, I guess that makes both your and my point :-) The peroxide thing is interesting though, especially considering that people have been using peroxide as a spot-treatment for black brush algae. Do you have any links about this? This sounds interesting... BTW -- I have anecdotal evidence that treating a tank with KMnSO4 works as a remedy for blue-green algae, which would sort of link in with the peroxide thing. I'm curious now... Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#25
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
Hmmm... Tom, to paraphrase you, you are essentially saying
that barley straw may help to reduce algae because it adds nutrients? If I understood that correctly then, I guess that makes both your and my point :-) It could. It adds organic carbon, so in a sense it's adding nutrients perhaps a few others. But is it really helping the plants grow better? No. The peroxide thing is interesting though, especially considering that people have been using peroxide as a spot-treatment for black brush algae. Do you have any links about this? This sounds interesting... Peroxide studies have been done namely on perti dishes with various organisms including algae and measuring the diameter of inhibition. You can try this without fish in a planted tank(something I've done for a long while for various plant algae torture) also. Cheap and easy to do/try. Measure a certain volume/concentration and frequency over time and note effects. Hard part: making sure that the nutrients are non limiting/stable. If you can do that and it's not merely an academic intellectual issue, then you don't ask algae questions very much:-) That's the biggest issue, not whether sanke oil no#1 works or not. Then the plants grow which is the goal in the first place. BTW -- I have anecdotal evidence that treating a tank with KMnSO4 works as a remedy for blue-green algae, which would sort of link in with the peroxide thing. I'm curious now... Permangnate works great as does any strong oxidizer like bleach, peroxide, even pure O2, O3, water changes and removal of excess organic material which reduces the tank's environment. Cheers, Michi. But yes, you have the right idea there Michi. I much prefer using light to get rid of algae and then re set the tank parameters. Cheaper and less risk and works. Other algae can be trimmed off or filtered etc. Regards, Tom Barr |
#26
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
IMHO, a water change or many would be better.
On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:48:37 -0500, "Shawn P. Good" wrote: Does anyone have experience treating "green water algae" infestations with barley straw extract ? What were your conclusions ? Did it work or not work ? Also, does it actually *kill* the algae ? Or does it just clarify the water in some other way ? I have a 55gal tank and the bottle I was looking at online at www.thatfishplace.com says it treats 2,500gals. So that's making me think now that I have the infestation, I'll have to treat it forever and ever. If barley straw extract ISN'T the best way to deal with green water algae, what is ? Thanks - Shawn |
#27
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
You obviously haven't ever had a bloom of green water algae then, have you ?
You can do a 90% water change - which I have, and 3 days later it's pea soup green again. Especially if you're running high lighting for a planted tank. I suspect you could even take the fish out and do a 100% water change, and the problem would still not go away, still the algal cells would just settle to the bottom in the gravel, and then resuspend when you filled it back up. The only way a water change could help would be if you also disinfected everything in between - a complete tear down. Disinfect the gravel, disinfect and scrub the inside of the tank, chlorine-dip all the plants and driftwood and anything else in the tank. This is something I want to avoid. Since having the green water algae bloom, I've done up to 80% water changes every 3 days, just to keep it from looking like crap. I'm currently trying the "total darkness" method I read about on the Kribs. Theoretically, 4 days or so of total darkness kills the primitive single celled algae completely while the fish and the higher plants do not suffer. Well, at least the plants do not suffer to the point of dying. I'm crossing my fingers ..... Shawn (Original Poster on the Barely Straw Extract) "Tyler" wrote in message ... IMHO, a water change or many would be better. On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:48:37 -0500, "Shawn P. Good" wrote: Does anyone have experience treating "green water algae" infestations with barley straw extract ? What were your conclusions ? Did it work or not work ? Also, does it actually *kill* the algae ? Or does it just clarify the water in some other way ? I have a 55gal tank and the bottle I was looking at online at www.thatfishplace.com says it treats 2,500gals. So that's making me think now that I have the infestation, I'll have to treat it forever and ever. If barley straw extract ISN'T the best way to deal with green water algae, what is ? Thanks - Shawn |
#28
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
On the 4 day black-out, I've had mixed results reported on this, but
mostly negative. I assume that for it to be effective, there must be some other condition in the tank, (perhaps they are approaching some growth constraint?). Let us know how it worked for you. I also found water changes ineffective. Had good results reported from using a phosphate pillow though. NetMax "Shawn P. Good" wrote in message ... You obviously haven't ever had a bloom of green water algae then, have you ? You can do a 90% water change - which I have, and 3 days later it's pea soup green again. Especially if you're running high lighting for a planted tank. I suspect you could even take the fish out and do a 100% water change, and the problem would still not go away, still the algal cells would just settle to the bottom in the gravel, and then resuspend when you filled it back up. The only way a water change could help would be if you also disinfected everything in between - a complete tear down. Disinfect the gravel, disinfect and scrub the inside of the tank, chlorine-dip all the plants and driftwood and anything else in the tank. This is something I want to avoid. Since having the green water algae bloom, I've done up to 80% water changes every 3 days, just to keep it from looking like crap. I'm currently trying the "total darkness" method I read about on the Kribs. Theoretically, 4 days or so of total darkness kills the primitive single celled algae completely while the fish and the higher plants do not suffer. Well, at least the plants do not suffer to the point of dying. I'm crossing my fingers ..... Shawn (Original Poster on the Barely Straw Extract) "Tyler" wrote in message ... IMHO, a water change or many would be better. On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:48:37 -0500, "Shawn P. Good" wrote: Does anyone have experience treating "green water algae" infestations with barley straw extract ? What were your conclusions ? Did it work or not work ? Also, does it actually *kill* the algae ? Or does it just clarify the water in some other way ? I have a 55gal tank and the bottle I was looking at online at www.thatfishplace.com says it treats 2,500gals. So that's making me think now that I have the infestation, I'll have to treat it forever and ever. If barley straw extract ISN'T the best way to deal with green water algae, what is ? Thanks - Shawn |
#29
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
"NetMax" wrote in message .. .
On the 4 day black-out, I've had mixed results reported on this, but mostly negative. I assume that for it to be effective, there must be some other condition in the tank, (perhaps they are approaching some growth constraint?). Let us know how it worked for you. I also found water changes ineffective. Had good results reported from using a phosphate pillow though. NetMax I have also started having a little problems with algae due to phosphate in my water source. I switched my ferts to Kent freshwater which is phosphate free and started adding "PhosGuard" by Seachem to my filters. So far it has worked a lot and I am happy with the results. It did not get rid of it 100% but now that my plants are doing better I hope that in a few more months I should be pretty close to algae free. YMMV tho. Vicki |
#30
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Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?
"Shawn P. Good" wrote in message
I'm crossing my fingers ..... Shawn (Original Poster on the Barely Straw Extract) Shawn, you will not beat GW in high light tank with nutrients and often blackouts will not work as they often a week later come back. The best method is mechanical filtration and/or UV sterilizers which make quick work of GW in your case. Mild cases, less light, etc, water changes, various algae snake oils will often work. But using PC lights etc over 2.5w, generally the GW will stay for months or more. You can use a diatom filter, or a cheap 9 3/4" filter cartiage from Home depot, put a 5 micron pleated filter in there and run it for a day or two with the filter outflow etc or a powerhead. That's only about 20$ and makes a good water polisher. GW is induced clearly by anything that influences the NH4 loading rate. Plants that are doing well will remove all of it before algae really have a chance to get at it. When enough NH4 is present + high light, the algae bloom. Once they have bloomed, you cannot get rid of them without physical removal, their nutrients needs are far beyond your test and even the best labs in the USA's capability resolution, less than 2-4ppb PO4. Yes, part's per _billion_. There are not aquatic plants that can survive with that little PO4. They also can use dissoloved organic PO4, wereas plants cannot in many/most cases. You can also use those hagen quick filters. I'd do that with a blackout unless you have gloss etc, should be the cheapest. Borrowing a UV from a friend also works. Once you get rid of it, make sure you do not slow the plant's uptake of NH4 etc. Adding too many fish will cause an algae for this precise reason, it has nothing to do with PO4 and everything to do with NH4. I can add 2ppm of PO4, I never can/could induce GW. I went to 2ppm of PO4 and 75ppm of NO3 at 4 w/gal at a 16" depth and lots of traces. Later a small amount of NH4 was added and within 12 to 30 hours a green water bloom. UV the tank, and repeated this several times. Then tried adding progressively more and more fish/shrimp till an algae bloom occured. If you think PO4 causes algae, and removing it will help the plants, you need to do some research on your own and also look up in the literature. There's plenty of research out there but be careful to apply the specific reference to your question that you are asking and want to know about. Marine algae or a plantless lake in Canada are not like a shallow eutropic plant filled lake in the tropics. If you even see a plant fill shallow lake, even if the nutrient levels are high or low, if you add PO4 etc, the lakes remain gin clear. Most folks that have issues with algae, often have problems with dosing in general, often have trouble with CO2 mainly or NO3 or both. You cannot say PO4 causes algae unless you make it your dependent variable. Other wise CO2/NO3 etc limitation is causing the problem and not high PO4. Until folks figure that out, that make incorrect assumptions about algae and plants. Other methods to deal with GW: Daphnia, copper sulfate, blackout(generally takes 5 days) If after the GW is gone and it comes back again, try adding more plants, but really check the CO2 and perhaps add a little biomedia in the filter box. Regards, Tom Barr |
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