The message
from Stephen Henning contains these words:

RBG of Edinburgh, 1.5 miles from the firth of Forth, not very close.

The RBGE has an elevation of 134 meters.
Younter Botanic Garden at Benmore features a 450 foot high view point.

And the YBG garden goes down to 15m above the sea.

RBGE is on a raised beach a few hundred yards from the sea at Leith
(an Edinburgh port). The elevation is 20 to 40 m, not 134 m as you
claim. Figures from their own website below.

www.rbge.org.uk/rbge/web/hort/four.jsp

http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...056&NavId=5110

is a map showing the garden's true location at the edge of the
water, NOT as you claim "Crarae Gardens, 1000 feet from Loch Fyne, not
very close"..


http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...053&NavId=5110 gives a map of Arduaine Garden, right on the coast and a maximum 100 ft above sealevel, NOT 239 ft as you claim.

The websites quoted belong to the Royal Botanical gardens (owners of
Benmore and Edinburgh Botanical Garden) and The National Trust for
Scotland, owners of Arduaine, Inverewe and Crarae.

http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...103&NavId=5122 for sea-location of Inverewe

azaleas in flower by the sea at Inverewe.
http://www.gardens-guide.com/gardenp...0_inverewe.jpg

Janet.

When you argue with fools bystanders can't tell you apart.
Azalea and every ericacious plant I have thusfar encountered will not
grow submerged in seawater.
15M would not be under the sea in a storm surge, if it was it would
have been washed out to sea.
A little salt spray? perhaps with adequate rainfall to leach it out,
otherwise no go.

The message
from (paghat) contains these words:

In article , Janet Baraclough
wrote:


The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are
heavily salt-laden.

Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

Wrong.


http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source

I haven't said Scottish soil is saline. It clearly isn't because
it's fertile. However, plants (and everything else) are constantly
salted-upon, because of weather conditions here. Because of the high
rainfall, salt doesn't accumulate to a harmful degree as it does in dry
climates like Australia's; but seasalt rain does contribute to our
acid-rain problems.


Scotland is almost as
good as the Pacific Northwest for rhodies because they require acidic
soils & areas of heavy rainfall wash salts OUT of the soil which results
in acidity. In LOW-preciptation regions soils become saline. And
rhododendrons will no longer grow.

I haven't claimed the soil is saline. The original post to which I
replied, said that ericaceous plants do not grow beside the sea. They
do, here.

And also as in the Pacific Northwest rhodies can be grown just about
anywhere in Scotland EXCEPT along salty shores or saltmarshes.

Wrong. There are many parts of Scotland where they can't grow.
They do grow along the west coast shore. Perhaps your personal
understanding of "shore" is limited; not all shores and seabords are
sand beach or saltmarsh.

In Scotland saline garden soils are caused by immediate proximity to
shores or lochs,
from irrigation gotten from brackish groundwater of the
lochs, & from chemicalized agricultural methods.

What saline soils? You clearly know nothing of gardening, irrigation
or agriculture in Scotland.

If you can cite something
factual & scientific as evidence that the Atlantic ocean leaps up & jumps
300 miles inland,

No part of Scotland is more than 40 miles from the sea. (There is no
"300 miles inland", anywhere in Britain.). Salt blows in, on wind and
rain, during storms.

But please, no more of these fairytales about your allegedly busy life
spent in all the gardens of scotland

That fairy tale is your own. Look up the websites in my post to
Stephen, he has misled you.

Janet.

Janet Baraclough wrote:

The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are
heavily salt-laden.

Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

Wrong.


http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source


If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated into the
clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt, then we can clearly
see how little you understand about even the most simple science.

The bottom line is rhodies will not grow in a saline environment, no matter
how much you want to argue with the experts. And the gardens you are using
as proof that the experts are wrong all work hard to protect their rhodies
from the saline that could otherwise easily create problems.

You can stop trying to be right. You can stop trying to prove that accepted
science is wrong. Every time you post, you demonstrate how little you know,
and how difficult of a time you have dealing with being wrong. Save us all
the pain of watching you dig yourself deeper and deeper into your pit of
humiliation. Stop now, because you obviously don't have the temperament to
deal with any further embarrassment.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/

Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.
http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...stry_Web.pd f

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition of
rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere. Furthermore, rainfall is NEVER simple H20 -
because it also picks up many gases that are present in the atmosphere and
transports them.
However, more pertinent to the ongoing argument is the fact that strong
winds (as in hurricane or near-hurricane force winds) which Scotland is
subject to every year,send salt spray MILES inland - not a few feet, or even
a few hundred feet. This can be verified in any google search.
I think that the issue has been clouded by all this talk about what hits
the leaves of the plants. It is clear that the initial post had to do with
what happened at the ROOTS of the plants in question. It is VERY evident
that rhododendrons cannot have their roots soaked in salt water that sits on
them. Constant movement of water through the root zone will wash the salts
through them or out of them - but it has to be water that is relatively low
in salts, and the plants have to have excellent drainage. A plant sitting in
a low spot with salt water swirling around its base is a goner - no
question. A plant on a hillside hit with a strong blast of very salty water
but subsequently flushed with plenty of water that moves through and out of
the root zone will probably be fine. Janet is not claiming that Scottish
rhododendrons are living in salt marshes. What she IS claiming is that they
live in rather close proximity to the sea in rather salty environments in
Scotland - albeit in regions of very high rainfall.

"Warren" wrote in message
...
Janet Baraclough wrote:

The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are
heavily salt-laden.

Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT
evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

Wrong.


http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source


If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated into the
clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt, then we can clearly
see how little you understand about even the most simple science.

The bottom line is rhodies will not grow in a saline environment, no
matter how much you want to argue with the experts. And the gardens you
are using as proof that the experts are wrong all work hard to protect
their rhodies from the saline that could otherwise easily create problems.

You can stop trying to be right. You can stop trying to prove that
accepted science is wrong. Every time you post, you demonstrate how little
you know, and how difficult of a time you have dealing with being wrong.
Save us all the pain of watching you dig yourself deeper and deeper into
your pit of humiliation. Stop now, because you obviously don't have the
temperament to deal with any further embarrassment.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/

A further elaboration of the theme of the chemical composition of rainfall:
"What is a chemical salt recipe for 'typical' rainwater?

Rainwater gets its compositions largely by dissolving particulate
materials in the atmosphere (upper troposhere) when droplets of water
nucleate on atmospheric particulates, and secondarily by dissolving gasses
from the atmosphere. Rainwater compositions vary geographically.

In open ocean and coastal areas they have a salt content essentially like
that of sea water (same ionic proportions but much more dilute) plus CO2 as
bicarbonate anion (acidic pH).

Terrestrial rain compositions vary siginificantly from place to place
because the regional geology can greatly affect the types of particulates
that get added to the atmosphere. Likewise, sources of gaesous acids (SO3,
NO2) and bases (NH3) vary as a function of biome factors and anthopogenic
land use practices. Each of these gasses can be added in varying proportions
from natural and non natural input sources (non-natural sources of SO3 and
NO2 far outweigh natural ones). Particulate load to the atmosphere can also
be greatly affected by human activities. Finally, local climate (especially
the amount of precipitation in one area compared to another) will affect the
solute concentrations in terrestrial rainwaters. The result is highly
variable compositions, so there isn't one simple formula.
If you want to read up a bit on this and see data for rainwater from
many different locales globally, I suggest the book "Global Environment:
water air and geochemical cycles" by Berner and Berner (Prentice-Hall, 1996)
or a similar text "

"presley" wrote in message
...
Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.
http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...stry_Web.pd f

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition
of rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere. Furthermore, rainfall is NEVER simple H20 -
because it also picks up many gases that are present in the atmosphere and
transports them.
However, more pertinent to the ongoing argument is the fact that strong
winds (as in hurricane or near-hurricane force winds) which Scotland is
subject to every year,send salt spray MILES inland - not a few feet, or
even a few hundred feet. This can be verified in any google search.
I think that the issue has been clouded by all this talk about what
hits the leaves of the plants. It is clear that the initial post had to do
with what happened at the ROOTS of the plants in question. It is VERY
evident that rhododendrons cannot have their roots soaked in salt water
that sits on them. Constant movement of water through the root zone will
wash the salts through them or out of them - but it has to be water that
is relatively low in salts, and the plants have to have excellent
drainage. A plant sitting in a low spot with salt water swirling around
its base is a goner - no question. A plant on a hillside hit with a
strong blast of very salty water but subsequently flushed with plenty of
water that moves through and out of the root zone will probably be fine.
Janet is not claiming that Scottish rhododendrons are living in salt
marshes. What she IS claiming is that they live in rather close proximity
to the sea in rather salty environments in Scotland - albeit in regions of
very high rainfall.

"Warren" wrote in message
...
Janet Baraclough wrote:

The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are
heavily salt-laden.

Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT
evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

Wrong.


http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source


If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated into the
clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt, then we can clearly
see how little you understand about even the most simple science.

The bottom line is rhodies will not grow in a saline environment, no
matter how much you want to argue with the experts. And the gardens you
are using as proof that the experts are wrong all work hard to protect
their rhodies from the saline that could otherwise easily create
problems.

You can stop trying to be right. You can stop trying to prove that
accepted science is wrong. Every time you post, you demonstrate how
little you know, and how difficult of a time you have dealing with being
wrong. Save us all the pain of watching you dig yourself deeper and
deeper into your pit of humiliation. Stop now, because you obviously
don't have the temperament to deal with any further embarrassment.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/

The message
from "Warren" contains these words:

Janet Baraclough wrote:

The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are
heavily salt-laden.

Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

Wrong.


http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source


If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated into the
clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt, then we can clearly
see how little you understand about even the most simple science.

You're incompetent. That page makes it perfectly clear; quote

*"Where does the salt come from?

*Soil salt can come from three main sources:

* 1. From the breakdown of parent rock: A very slow process.
* 2. From geological inundation by the oceans: Only on discrete parts
of Australia.
* 3. From wind blown salt, usually in rain water from the ocean.

*Salt in rainfall can range from about 20 kg/ha/per annum (usually
inland with low rainfall) to more *than 200 kg/ha/per annum (usually
coastal with high rainfall). In most of Australia, this is the source
*of stored salts. " end quote.

Presley has given another cite telling you the same thing.

You can stop trying to be right. You can stop trying to prove that accepted
science is wrong. Every time you post, you demonstrate how little you know,
and how difficult of a time you have dealing with being wrong. Save us all
the pain of watching you dig yourself deeper and deeper into your pit of
humiliation. Stop now, because you obviously don't have the temperament to
deal with any further embarrassment.

I suggest you apply that to yourself, Stephen and Paghat. You jumped
on the wrong bandwagon, Warren; your heroes are not the experts they
pretend and now you've been hoist on their own petard of lies and
deliberate misrepresentations.

Janet.

Janet Baraclough wrote:
I suggest you apply that to yourself, Stephen and Paghat. You jumped
on the wrong bandwagon, Warren; your heroes are not the experts they
pretend and now you've been hoist on their own petard of lies and
deliberate misrepresentations.


Okay. You win. Azaleas will thrive in salty conditions.

I'm ready to go out and pour salt water on all my azaleas based on your
convincing arguments. But just in case you're wrong, I'll wait until you put
your money where your mouth is, and agree to pay for replacements if you
turn out to be wrong.

Thank goodness you pointed out how everyone else lies so much, otherwise I'd
never realize that you're the only generous who really knows how to grow
azaleas!

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/

The message
from "Warren" contains these words:

Thank goodness you pointed out how everyone else lies so much,
otherwise I'd
never realize that you're the only generous who really knows how to grow
azaleas!

There's another of your lies, Warren. I haven't said *everyone* else
lies. You do, clearly.


I don't, and neither did Soo, Charles, and Presley in this thread.

Janet

"presley" wrote:

Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.
http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...pic%20B2_Part1
_Solution_Chemistry_Web.pdf

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition of
rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere.

Let's see now:

1) People drink rain water, especially on ocean islands where there is
no other fresh water, are very healthy.

2) People who drink sea water die.

and you claim that they are the same. I hope you don't try to drink sea
water.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

Janet Baraclough wrote:

Seasalt rain does contribute to our acid-rain problems.

Salt does not make things acidic, it buffers the acidity and raises the
pH of acidic solutions. So if you have acid rain, you do not have
saline rain. The reverse is true, acid rain causes salt depletion.


Look up the websites in my post to Stephen, he has misled you.

Which one, the one on the increased salinity of Australia's arid regions
by rainwater or the picture of Brodick Castle with no rhododendrons or
azaleas in it. We are not talking about property boundaries, but about
where rhododendrons and azaleas thrive.

Just because you can raise rhododendrons and azaleas and own some swamp
land doesn't mean that they thrive in swamp land. Let's use some logic
here.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhody.html
Also visit the Rhododendron and Azalea Bookstore at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhodybooks.html
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA Zone 6

Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message
from Stephen Henning contains these words:

RBG of Edinburgh, 1.5 miles from the firth of Forth, not very
close.

The RBGE has an elevation of 134 meters.
Younter Botanic Garden at Benmore features a 450 foot high view
point.

And the YBG garden goes down to 15m above the sea.

RBGE is on a raised beach a few hundred yards from the sea at
Leith (an Edinburgh port). The elevation is 20 to 40 m, not 134 m
as you
claim. Figures from their own website below.

www.rbge.org.uk/rbge/web/hort/four.jsp

http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...056&NavId=5110

is a map showing the garden's true location at the edge of the
water, NOT as you claim "Crarae Gardens, 1000 feet from Loch
Fyne, not
very close"..


http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...053&NavId=5110
gives a map of Arduaine Garden, right on the coast and a maximum
100 ft above sealevel, NOT 239 ft as you claim.

The websites quoted belong to the Royal Botanical gardens (owners
of
Benmore and Edinburgh Botanical Garden) and The National Trust for
Scotland, owners of Arduaine, Inverewe and Crarae.

http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...103&NavId=5122
for sea-location of Inverewe

azaleas in flower by the sea at Inverewe.
http://www.gardens-guide.com/gardenp...0_inverewe.jpg

Janet.

Janet you are an IDIOT you don't even read the web sites you cite.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message
from (paghat) contains these words:

In article , Janet
Baraclough wrote:


The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean
and are heavily salt-laden.

Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT
evaporated into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

Wrong.


http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source

I haven't said Scottish soil is saline. It clearly isn't because
it's fertile. However, plants (and everything else) are constantly
salted-upon, because of weather conditions here. Because of the high
rainfall, salt doesn't accumulate to a harmful degree as it does in
dry climates like Australia's; but seasalt rain does contribute to
our acid-rain problems.


Scotland is almost as
good as the Pacific Northwest for rhodies because they require
acidic soils & areas of heavy rainfall wash salts OUT of the soil
which results in acidity. In LOW-preciptation regions soils
become saline. And rhododendrons will no longer grow.

I haven't claimed the soil is saline. The original post to which I
replied, said that ericaceous plants do not grow beside the sea.
They do, here.

And also as in the Pacific Northwest rhodies can be grown just
about anywhere in Scotland EXCEPT along salty shores or
saltmarshes.

Wrong. There are many parts of Scotland where they can't grow.
They do grow along the west coast shore. Perhaps your personal
understanding of "shore" is limited; not all shores and seabords are
sand beach or saltmarsh.

In Scotland saline garden soils are caused by immediate proximity
to shores or lochs,
from irrigation gotten from brackish groundwater of the
lochs, & from chemicalized agricultural methods.

What saline soils? You clearly know nothing of gardening,
irrigation or agriculture in Scotland.

If you can cite something
factual & scientific as evidence that the Atlantic ocean leaps up
& jumps 300 miles inland,

No part of Scotland is more than 40 miles from the sea. (There is
no "300 miles inland", anywhere in Britain.). Salt blows in, on
wind and rain, during storms.

But please, no more of these fairytales about your allegedly busy
life spent in all the gardens of scotland

That fairy tale is your own. Look up the websites in my post to
Stephen, he has misled you.

Janet.

Salt *does* *not* rain from the sky.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

presley wrote:
Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.
http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...stry_Web.pd f

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the
composition of rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some
additional molecules picked up in the atmosphere. Furthermore,
rainfall is NEVER simple H20 - because it also picks up many gases
that are present in the atmosphere and transports them.
However, more pertinent to the ongoing argument is the fact that
strong winds (as in hurricane or near-hurricane force winds) which
Scotland is subject to every year,send salt spray MILES inland -
not a few feet, or even a few hundred feet. This can be verified in
any google search. I think that the issue has been clouded by
all this talk about what hits the leaves of the plants. It is clear
that the initial post had to do with what happened at the ROOTS of
the plants in question. It is VERY evident that rhododendrons
cannot have their roots soaked in salt water that sits on them.
Constant movement of water through the root zone will wash the
salts through them or out of them - but it has to be water that is
relatively low in salts, and the plants have to have excellent
drainage. A plant sitting in a low spot with salt water swirling
around its base is a goner - no question. A plant on a hillside
hit with a strong blast of very salty water but subsequently
flushed with plenty of water that moves through and out of the root
zone will probably be fine. Janet is not claiming that Scottish
rhododendrons are living in salt marshes. What she IS claiming is
that they live in rather close proximity to the sea in rather salty
environments in Scotland - albeit in regions of very high rainfall.

A plant sitting in a low spot with distilled water swirling around its
base is a gonner.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

presley wrote:
A further elaboration of the theme of the chemical composition of
rainfall: "What is a chemical salt recipe for 'typical' rainwater?

Rainwater gets its compositions largely by dissolving particulate
materials in the atmosphere (upper troposhere) when droplets of
water nucleate on atmospheric particulates, and secondarily by
dissolving gasses from the atmosphere. Rainwater compositions vary
geographically.
In open ocean and coastal areas they have a salt content
essentially like that of sea water (same ionic proportions but much
more dilute) plus CO2 as bicarbonate anion (acidic pH).

Terrestrial rain compositions vary siginificantly from place to
place because the regional geology can greatly affect the types of
particulates that get added to the atmosphere. Likewise, sources of
gaesous acids (SO3, NO2) and bases (NH3) vary as a function of
biome factors and anthopogenic land use practices. Each of these
gasses can be added in varying proportions from natural and non
natural input sources (non-natural sources of SO3 and NO2 far
outweigh natural ones). Particulate load to the atmosphere can also
be greatly affected by human activities. Finally, local climate
(especially the amount of precipitation in one area compared to
another) will affect the solute concentrations in terrestrial
rainwaters. The result is highly variable compositions, so there
isn't one simple formula. If you want to read up a bit on this and
see data for rainwater from many different locales globally, I
suggest the book "Global
Environment: water air and geochemical cycles" by Berner and Berner
(Prentice-Hall, 1996) or a similar text "

Here in the PNW our rain comes in off the Pacific Ocean and it is not
the least bit salty.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5