"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Snooze" contains these words:

.. It's not as if you're some helpless
rudderless third-world country where we can bring what's needed, wade
in, take control, and start organising the emergency rescue so
deperately needed.

Apparently we ARE rudderless.

BetsyB wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168132,00.html

My Senate nerd who I am still willing to swap, for that sweet Fairlane, sent
me these.

BetsyB
"BetsyB" wrote in message
...


Heart breaking.

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Snooze" contains these words:

. It's not as if you're some helpless
rudderless third-world country where we can bring what's needed, wade
in, take control, and start organising the emergency rescue so
deperately needed.

Apparently we ARE rudderless.

It's not the lack of a rudder that's causing the problem. It's the captain
who hasn't a clue about what he's doing or any concept about 'real" people
and their problems.

JPS

"B & J" wrote in message
news66Se.4030$Ix4.3783@okepread03...
"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Snooze" contains these words:

. It's not as if you're some helpless
rudderless third-world country where we can bring what's needed, wade
in, take control, and start organising the emergency rescue so
deperately needed.

Apparently we ARE rudderless.

It's not the lack of a rudder that's causing the problem. It's the captain
who hasn't a clue about what he's doing or any concept about 'real" people
and their problems.

I used to believe that. Now I think he is just evil.

In article , "Vox Humana"
wrote:

"B & J" wrote in message
news66Se.4030$Ix4.3783@okepread03...
"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Snooze" contains these words:

. It's not as if you're some helpless
rudderless third-world country where we can bring what's needed, wade
in, take control, and start organising the emergency rescue so
deperately needed.

Apparently we ARE rudderless.

It's not the lack of a rudder that's causing the problem. It's the captain
who hasn't a clue about what he's doing or any concept about 'real" people
and their problems.

I used to believe that. Now I think he is just evil.

I think you're right. It's too easy to assume he's a retarded puppet of
the same gangsterish powers that used Grampa Reagan as their alzheimered
marionette, but that just lets Bush off the hook for causing the deaths of
thousands upon thousands world wide. The bad decisions seem to be ones he
personally makes even when those who'd like to pull his strings are trying
to get him to do something else.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

I'm not quite sure what you are arguing, Roy. I fear that you're sadly
misinformed. Here's a pdf of the letter of Louisiana Governor Blanco
requesting immediate declaration of emergency at least 24 hours prior to
landfall - the letter was delivered the morning of Sunday, August 28th. In
the body of the letter, you will see that the Louisiana governor initiated
the Lousiana emergency plan beginning on Friday, the 26th. She based that
plan on National Weather Service predictions of a potential Louisiana
landfall. By Saturday afternoon, the general landfall area of the hurricane
was virtually certain. The federal government, particularly FEMA, is
supposed to monitor those Hurricane reports and anticipate needs. It failed
to do so. This is a catastrophic failure of FEMA and the Office of Homeland
Security. It is an indictment of short-sighted cost-saving by the Bush
Administration to pay for the Gulf War. FEMA as an agency was basically
gutted to create the Department of Homeland Security. The focus of the
agency went from disaster preparedness to terrorism preparedness. The
National Guards of all states have been decimated by deployments to Iraq.
People from foreign nations are watching our news broadcasts with open-jawed
amazement. How could the head of FEMA and the head of Homeland Security have
argued on TV interviews that there were NO people stranded at the New
Orleans Convention Center on Thursday morning - until the interviewers
literally turned them around to look at the TV pictures? With completely
open air space and no wind danger from Tuesday, August 30 onward, why were
there not continuous sorties of aircraft doing drops of essential supplies -
especially water and food? And as devastated as the Mississippi coast was,
the population base is much smaller than the New Orleans metropolitan area.
(Perhaps 200,000 total vs. 1,000,000 or more) . There were air bases in
Florida and Texas that were completely unaffected, from which these sorties
could have been launched. Why were there no ships in Tampa Bay or Galveston
Bay ready to be deployed the instant the hurricane passed? All I can say is,
God help us all if there were a significant terrorist attack on any major
city. I am LIVID. Our president needs to be held accountable.
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20...%20Request.pdf
"Roy Starrin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:43:58 GMT, "Snooze"
opined:



I think I take back what I said, it appears we do need the assistance of
other nations. Given that the world knew about the magnitude of this
hurricane atleast 4 days before the hurricane hit the new orleans area,
they
had plenty of time to mobilize a recovery effort.
Go back on the track "at least 4 days" before the hurricane hit and
provide us please with the data which revealed to you that it would
hit where it did, with the results that it had

USN Comfort set sail 4 days after it hit landfall because it took them 4
days to get the crew and supplies onboard.
That's the way it is set up to work; otherwise you would be bitching
about the $$$ that the DHS was spending waiting for events to happen
Various navy ships including an
aircraft carrier have been sent to the region, again deployed after
landfall. They're not projected to arrive until the 2nd or 3rd week of
September.
Hog wash. They will be on station Sunday and the USS Bataan was in
the gulf and has been supporting recovery ops since the onset.
A bulk of the national guard from around the country is being
deployed 3-4 days after it was obvious the national guard was needed to
maintain order, and assist in the rebuild/rescue efforts. A better
planned
system would have had the rescue crews enroute and scheduled to arrive a
day or two after it hit landfall.
And how do you know exactly what is needed until landfall occurs? You
failed to note that the area was declared a disaster area before
landfall---which enabled the response that was received---good or bad;
had they waited it would have been later that it was

Roy
www.virginianewssource.com

On Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:00:01 -0700, "presley"
wrote:

I'm not quite sure what you are arguing, Roy. I fear that you're sadly
misinformed. Here's a pdf of the letter of Louisiana Governor Blanco
requesting immediate declaration of emergency at least 24 hours prior to
landfall - the letter was delivered the morning of Sunday, August 28th. In
the body of the letter, you will see that the Louisiana governor initiated
the Lousiana emergency plan beginning on Friday, the 26th. She based that
plan on National Weather Service predictions of a potential Louisiana
landfall. By Saturday afternoon, the general landfall area of the hurricane
was virtually certain. The federal government, particularly FEMA, is
supposed to monitor those Hurricane reports and anticipate needs.
It failed
"Friday, Aug. 26: At 11 p.m., Katrina is forecast to make landfall
near New Orleans. (Not the 4 days before the original poster stated)

"Saturday, Aug. 27: President Bush declares a state of emergency in
Louisiana. White House says FEMA officials are coordinating with
authorities in Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama, and have
supplies ready. Authorities advise Gulf Coast evacuation.

"Sunday: Bush declares emergencies for Mississippi, Florida and
Alabama. Evacuations ordered for New Orleans. Evacuation orders are
also posted along the Mississippi and Alabama coasts, and in barrier
islands of the Florida Panhandle. FEMA moves supplies from centers in
Atlanta and Denton, Texas, to areas closer to where authorities think
the storm will create a need. "
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/09/03/Wo...builds__.shtml
to do so. This is a catastrophic failure of FEMA and the Office of Homeland
Security. It is an indictment of short-sighted cost-saving by the Bush
Administration to pay for the Gulf War. FEMA as an agency was basically
gutted to create the Department of Homeland Security. The focus of the
agency went from disaster preparedness to terrorism preparedness. The
National Guards of all states have been decimated by deployments to Iraq.
People from foreign nations are watching our news broadcasts with open-jawed
amazement. How could the head of FEMA and the head of Homeland Security have
argued on TV interviews that there were NO people stranded at the New
Orleans Convention Center on Thursday morning - until the interviewers
literally turned them around to look at the TV pictures? With completely
open air space and no wind danger from Tuesday, August 30 onward, why were
there not continuous sorties of aircraft doing drops of essential supplies -
especially water and food?
Which were where, and, more importantly, packaged for air drops?
And as devastated as the Mississippi coast was,
the population base is much smaller than the New Orleans metropolitan area.
(Perhaps 200,000 total vs. 1,000,000 or more) . There were air bases in
Florida and Texas that were completely unaffected, from which these sorties
could have been launched.
If you have been following the TV as you say you have you already know
that sorties were being flown, at least out of NAS Pensacola, to
rescue folks---these continue.
Why were there no ships in Tampa Bay or Galveston
Bay ready to be deployed the instant the hurricane passed?
Are you advocating we have a bigger Navy so that we can home-port
ships all over the coasts to be ready in just in case case there is a
disaster? I'm for the biggest Navy you can afford.
I was attempting to respond to the O.P.s erroneous statements that it
was going to take up to 2 weeks for the Navy to get there.
And I will refer you to this interesting article re the military's
performance in view of its relationship to FEMA:
Red tape keeping much of military on sidelines
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...me.xml&items=6
All I can say is,
God help us all if there were a significant terrorist attack on any major
city.
I know you haven't fogotten 9/11
I am LIVID. Our president needs to be held accountable.
And I'm sure he and "they" will be. I wrote initially because I am in
the news business and it bothers me when folks, like the O.P. come
forth with these vast assertions of what everyone knew (knows), which,
upon review, turn out to be half-vast statements of non-facts.

I will have to quibble with that. He is just retarded. Katrina has
completed the remake of America's image abroad, which started with the
war in Iraq. Surely they are coming to the same conclusions as posters
here. I saw one foreign headline saying "the superpower defeated at
home". They will fear our guns but not our brains.

"Roy Starrin" wrote in message It failed
"Friday, Aug. 26: At 11 p.m., Katrina is forecast to make landfall
near New Orleans. (Not the 4 days before the original poster stated)

4 days may have been an exaggeration, but it WAS 2 1/2 days before

"Saturday, Aug. 27: President Bush declares a state of emergency in
Louisiana. White House says FEMA officials are coordinating with
authorities in Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama, and have
supplies ready. Authorities advise Gulf Coast evacuation.
This contradicts what you say below about having food and water prepackaged
for air drops. I'm quite sure that you're correct and that they didn't have
them ready- but why not?

"Sunday: Bush declares emergencies for Mississippi, Florida and
Alabama. Evacuations ordered for New Orleans. Evacuation orders are
also posted along the Mississippi and Alabama coasts, and in barrier
islands of the Florida Panhandle. FEMA moves supplies from centers in
Atlanta and Denton, Texas, to areas closer to where authorities think
the storm will create a need. "
See above.
, August 30 onward, why were
there not continuous sorties of aircraft doing drops of essential
supplies -
especially water and food?
Which were where, and, more importantly, packaged for air drops?
According to the news sources and Bush's declaration above, the supplies
were supposed to have been moved closer to the disaster site - which as far
as I can ascertain, they were not - or at least with provision for delivery
once they were moved.
If you have been following the TV as you say you have you already know
that sorties were being flown, at least out of NAS Pensacola, to
rescue folks---these continue.
Rescue yes, particularly by the coast guard - but NOT with water and food
supplies - equally important when people have been herded into specific
spaces and then confined there by martial law, after having been promised
the above in 95 + temperatures. Ask any doctor in the world what the
physiological response is to dehydration - particularly in extreme heat
conditions. Football players drop dead of it routinely after 3-4 HOURS.
Why were there no ships in Tampa Bay or Galveston
Bay ready to be deployed the instant the hurricane passed?
Are you advocating we have a bigger Navy so that we can home-port
ships all over the coasts to be ready in just in case case there is a
disaster? I'm for the biggest Navy you can afford.
No, I'm saying that there were 8 naval bases along the gulf coast - 3 in the
affected areas and 5 outside them. I'm assuming that any ships at the 3
affected bases were sent in the direction of the other bases when word was
received about the anticipated landfall of the hurricane. If there were NO
medical ships, aircraft carriers or other large vessels anywhere in the gulf
coast, that doesn't make me feel as though my government has its priorities
in the right place. It's not necessary to have hundreds - but one or two
would be nice to protect one of the major coasts of our country.
I was attempting to respond to the O.P.s erroneous statements that it
was going to take up to 2 weeks for the Navy to get there.
And I will refer you to this interesting article re the military's
performance in view of its relationship to FEMA:
Red tape keeping much of military on sidelines
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...me.xml&items=6

I couldn't agree with this more. Whose job was it to cut through that red
tape?

All I can say is,
God help us all if there were a significant terrorist attack on any major
city.
I know you haven't fogotten 9/11
No, that's why I'm livid.
I am LIVID. Our president needs to be held accountable.
And I'm sure he and "they" will be.
I remain skeptical. He doesn't have a history of owning up to mistakes, of
punishing people responsible for mistakes, or for being honest about the
financial cost (ie taxes) necessary to pay for his mistakes. After all, this
is the president who said 2 days ago, "No one had any idea that the levees
were vulnerable to breach"
I wrote initially because I am in
the news business and it bothers me when folks, like the O.P. come
forth with these vast assertions of what everyone knew (knows), which,
upon review, turn out to be half-vast statements of non-facts.
I know that people exaggerate, and I'm glad that you are trying to keep them
honest. But this WAS a catastrophe, and our response was slow and incredibly
inadequate, which doesn't bode well for other disasters. It sounded as
though you were disputing that part, which is why I jumped in.

"simy1" wrote in message
oups.com...
I will have to quibble with that. He is just retarded. Katrina has
completed the remake of America's image abroad, which started with the
war in Iraq. Surely they are coming to the same conclusions as posters
here. I saw one foreign headline saying "the superpower defeated at
home". They will fear our guns but not our brains.


I think it is too easy to say that Bush is retarded. It lets him off
without requiring any personal responsibility.

"presley" wrote in message
...
Red tape keeping much of military on sidelines

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...me.xml&items=6

I couldn't agree with this more. Whose job was it to cut through that red
tape?

I remember the crippling blizzard that we experience in Ohio around 1976.
Of course it was nothing on the scale of this disaster, but it was life
threatening and shut down the entire state. The governor set up a command
center and personally directed the emergency operation. He instructed
stranded people on the interstates to break into closed rest areas and weigh
stations to get shelter and water. He made periodic statement to the media.
I think that is what Bush should have done. He should have convened all the
cabinet members and military authorities in the situation room and
authorized what ever it took to save lives. Damn the red tape. He had the
ability direct the military to do what ever it takes. After all, he has no
problem assuming authority to suspend civil rights, to sneak into homes to
spy on people, to declare people "enemy combatants" and ship them into
seclusion without even notifying their families. He diverted funds from the
war in Afghanistan to prep for war in Iraq without any authority. Using the
resources of the people to save lives is hardly a risky action. True
leaders know when to act and assume risk, disregard criticism, and accept
responsibility. This president chose to vacation, eat cake, strum his
guitar, and press his failed quest to strip the last vestige of a safety net
for the very same impoverished souls who were dispatched to their death due
to his careless indifference.

personal responsibility is for grown ups.

"simy1" wrote in message
oups.com...
personal responsibility is for grown ups.


I guess you got me there! What was I thinking?

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"simy1" wrote in message
oups.com...
personal responsibility is for grown ups.


I guess you got me there! What was I thinking?

Here's something to add to your thinking. If Katrina had hit Florida in a
4/5 category instead of a 1, dubya would have been down there bailing out
Jeb boy in a flash. Don't forget that Florida, Jeb boy, and K. Harris gave
dubya the presidency, and Jeb boy is the crown prince of the Republican
party. It's how many electoral votes a state can deliver that matter in the
end.

JPS

On Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:50:52 -0700, "presley"
argued:

No, I'm saying that there were 8 naval bases
along the gulf coast -
(nine actually, bases/stations/facilities. Several have no mission
involving ships E.G. Pensacola is an Air Station, Gulfport is a CB
Base, and others have a basic problem viz-a-viz ship basing---they are
not ports and are not on the water)
3 in the
affected areas and 5 outside them. I'm assuming that any ships at the 3
affected bases were sent in the direction of the other bases when word was
received about the anticipated landfall of the hurricane.
You got that right
`Substantial damage' reported at Naval Station Pascagoula
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centr...s/12555378.htm
If there were NO
medical ships, aircraft carriers or other large vessels anywhere in the gulf
coast, that doesn't make me feel as though my government has its priorities
in the right place. It's not necessary to have hundreds - but one or two
would be nice to protect one of the major coasts of our country.
Coast Guard's mission. Not Navy mission. Count their bases, and
ships. They do a super job, but y'all allow them to be grossly
unerfunded, year-after- year. But, please see the above story. That
means that your requirements were met. Actually, the requirments were
more fully met, not to protect the coasts, but to meet the pork barrel
needs of Congressmen---"See all the money I'm bringing to you". You
will note in the above story that Pascagoula has been nominated for
closure. These remote home ports proved to be horribly expensive and
a (ship) maintenance nightmare. Pascagoula endured in my mind because
Trent Lott has more horse power than most, and because there is a
private shipyard there that could help them (at great expense).
As far as the homeports in the Gulf, there are also a grunch of mine
sweeps in TX---great at what they do, very small, cluttered, and very
short legs.
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ships/lists/homeport.asp

I was attempting to respond to the O.P.s erroneous statements that it
was going to take up to 2 weeks for the Navy to get there.
And I will refer you to this interesting article re the military's
performance in view of its relationship to FEMA:
Red tape keeping much of military on sidelines
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...me.xml&items=6

I couldn't agree with this more. Whose job was it to cut through that red
tape?
Not mine, nor the C.O. of any of those ships/units. My main purpose
in addressing any of these issues is that that bashing the military is
national sport for many. As a C.O. my job was to take whatever part
of national policy was assigned to me and implement it. We had a
deal, I didn't tell the then president how to run the country; he
didn't tell me how to run my ship. If folks don't like national
policy they should direct their comments to those folks who set
them---Congress and the President. (How many of you sent
letters/emails to them to not pass/sign the recent highway bill, which
had billions (of your money) of pork in it? In fact---how many of you
even bothered to vote in the last election?) Think---that money could
have gone along way to help sort things out on the Gulf Coast---an
effort now running between $#.5B-$.7B per day, for which we all will
be taxed.. Remember. the government has no money of its own, they
spend your money.
Everybody here, take a step back, and sent your vitriol to them.
http://www.virginianewssource.com/link-39.html
I leave you with this:
Sailors, Medics, Helos, Ships Join Katrina Relief Efforts
http://www.news4jax.com/news/4921404/detail.html
30
starrin