better put out more feeders Perry, I'm sure the winds stripped off all their
blossoms east of you. And it's quite awhile before they make their trek to
Mexico for winter...........I have hummer's here too. More than I normally
see. My blue Salvia (Blue Egnima that gets 5-6 foot tall) and 4 o'clocks,
Cleome, Phlox and trumpet vine are really getting hit hard with the large
population of hummers right now. They actually run off the butterflies that
are out in force! It's funny to see a hummer running a butterfly!
maddie
"Perry Templeton" wrote in message
...
As an aside to the storm, I am absolutely over-run with hummingbirds. I
had lots of hummingbird attractant flowers in my yard, and the storm
knocked all the blooms off. I had taken down the feeders, so the wind
wouldn't get them. The evening of the storm, I had cooked over a
campstove, was sitting outside eating and oh my gosh, got bombed by a
hummer. I immediately put down my dinner and filled up and re-hung the
feeders. The little darlings must have put out the word because it is
hummingbird heaven. A bright spot in all this mess.
Perry
Houma, LA
southwest of New Orleans

"madgardener" wrote in message
...

"Snooze" wrote in message
...
The attitude is we can afford to assist our own. In the aftermath of the
tsunami, many of the effected areas were not near airports with runways
large enough to accommodate transport aircraft, and those that were, did
not have the equipment necessary to unload and distribute relief
supplies.

understood, didja see those pictures of I-10 and the causeway? I also
watched CBS the other night when they decided on short notice to take
"the backroads of 190" and pointed out that major roads were bad enough,
but for rural back road communities, a 200 year old oak tree across the
only road was more devistating than anyone who doesn't understand this
can comprehend. I lived in an area where if the train was running, you
sat until it passed. Nevermind that the only grocery store was on the
other side....you had to wait. I can well imagine if the backroads to
this disaster haven't even been thought about....................little
things lift my thoughts though......like that Turkish man in front of his
little Po-boy and convenient store who was saying he was staying open to
feed anyone who needed food, that he could cook over a
pit.............that speaks of the core of what america used to be and
possibly is still.

I like to hope that in the face of more disasters that would affect MORE
of the country, we'd come together and tell the rest of the world to take
care of their own...........how I wish our son's and daughters were home
taking care of their own business in their own part of their country. I
can't imagine how the people who are FROM the area's hit hard are dealing
with the fact that their homes, possibly their families are gone for
good.........will the military let them come home to seek out their
families and assess the damages, or will they just have to find out when
information is released?

That is why the marines and navy were deployed into those areas. Any
city in America has sufficient roads and an army of forklift operators,
truck drivers and near an airport capable of landing a transport
airplane, so we don't really need to park an aircraft carrier to act as
a mobile airport and air traffic controller. Every sheriff's department
and fire department in the country has a trained Search and Rescue (SAR)
team, so we don't need SAR teams from Europe

good point. and you gave me a ponder to think about..............

The problem is, if we weren't at war, the national guard from every
neighboring state would have been activated to assist with security,
clean up and search/rescue. The problem is of course, all the equipment,
and guardsmen are busy searching for weapons of mass destruction in
Iraq.

oh yes, and didn't you hear? there were NO
MDI's.........................................I feel that if shrub really
wanted Iraq for the oil, why doesn't he just come out and SAY it, we have
the troops, we have the equipment, just take the country, take the oil
and sort out the terrorists from the rest of the folks who just wanna
live in peace, set up shop and build a few refinaries since the EPA isn't
gonna slow things down over there.....................and no, I didn't
vote for the
bastage........................................... ..............boy does
the Bayou boys song take credence here right now.........(no pun
intended) (Creedence Clearwater Revival) Bad Moon rising...........

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ne...rd+new+orleans

The first story is about the Iowa national guard sending 6 guardsmen and
some generators to a hospital, they should be sending way more then
that.

-S


just makes me tired. and how sad, shrub had to break off his vacation
early.......enough of this, I'm going outside to watch the frogs that
live in my BBQ pit fountain, and the hummingbirds who are oblivious of
nothing else but my late summer buffet, and pick a few ripe figs and
thank the gods for a sunny day, heat, and humidity all.
madgardener

that IS interesting.....................and considering Venezuela has reason
to want to feed Pat Robertson some of their hottest and spiciest food right
now with a tall, chilled glass of Mexico's finest water, I'm encouraged that
they don't judge all of us by one
zealot.....................................


"simy1" wrote in message
oups.com...
interesting that some not so friendly countries, such as Venezuela,
Germany, Saudi Arabia, and Russia, have offered help. I could not find
mention of help from the UK or Italy, both current allies in Iraq.

"madgardener" wrote in message
...
Whenever there is a natural disaster, the tsunami in the Indian Ocean
for example, the world community expects the United States to help.

When a natural disaster hits the USA, the world community is silent.


Are you basing this on our wonderful media non-coverage of the "news?" If
it doesn't involve a missing drunk white girl or a runaway bride, you aren't
going to hear about it. Foreign coverage of the news is out of the question
when you have to have several segments on lip gloss and or how to pick a
good plastic surgeon. I've been watching the news coverage of this disaster
and it is pathetic. No one is asking any tough questions. Most of the
"reporters" couldn't find their ass in the dark with a flashlight.

"madgardener" wrote in message
...

"Marsha" wrote in message
...
Hi Marilyn, we were asking this same question in another group

I just wonder what it's going to take to wake people up to the
inevitability
of gas rationing, and astronomical prices of food, products, etc.

On the first day of Economics 101 you learn about the trade-off between
"guns and butter." Someone must have skipped that class.

google "foreign aid katrina".

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..
On the first day of Economics 101 you learn about the trade-off between
"guns and butter." Someone must have skipped that class.

well Vox, I didn't have Economics 101. kindly enlighten me, I might be 52
but I'm willing to learn more. (not being sarcastic, either)
madgardener

"madgardener" wrote in message
...

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..
On the first day of Economics 101 you learn about the trade-off between
"guns and butter." Someone must have skipped that class.

well Vox, I didn't have Economics 101. kindly enlighten me, I might be
52
but I'm willing to learn more. (not being sarcastic, either)
madgardener


The comment wasn't directed at you, but the person who decided that we
needed guns instead of butter. The "Guns and Butter" curve is based on the
fact that there is limited productivity. You can produce guns OR butter.
When one product goes up, the other goes down unless you can increase
productivity. This illustrates the concept of "opportunity loss." In other
words, when you decide to go to war, you experience an opportunity loss to
produce (or afford) things like infrastructure and consumer goods.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gunsandbutter.asp

AH HA@!!! I knew you weren't directing the statement towards me, but I
always enjoy learning what I don't know. by the way, I wrote a rant (not
aimed at you, either) last night in regards to someone's response about the
news "coverage" and decided not to post it......I read it this morning, it
wasn't bad, but I could sure tell I got caught up in my emotions, again.
Now if only the ex-daughter in law would just call and sarcastically tell me
"we're alright" and hang up, I'd feel better. I don't care if they have a
house to go back to or if everything is lost as long as they're all
alright..........apparently the people who live down there have this
nonchalant attitude that "it's not as bad as you think, we'll rebuild and
everything will be fine". I got this from my son who has talked to two of
his best friends who are fine, but have sustained tremendous damage to their
homes. One is in TOTAL denial because he manages and trouble shoots Wendy's
restaurants near Slidelle and doesn't realize that Slidelle is
GONE........................it's just not there, but he thinks he'll be back
to work "in a week"...........sigh.........thanks for enlightening me
madgardener
"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"madgardener" wrote in message
...

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..
On the first day of Economics 101 you learn about the trade-off between
"guns and butter." Someone must have skipped that class.

well Vox, I didn't have Economics 101. kindly enlighten me, I might be
52
but I'm willing to learn more. (not being sarcastic, either)
madgardener


The comment wasn't directed at you, but the person who decided that we
needed guns instead of butter. The "Guns and Butter" curve is based on
the
fact that there is limited productivity. You can produce guns OR butter.
When one product goes up, the other goes down unless you can increase
productivity. This illustrates the concept of "opportunity loss." In
other
words, when you decide to go to war, you experience an opportunity loss to
produce (or afford) things like infrastructure and consumer goods.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gunsandbutter.asp

The stores are reflecting what they are being charged for delivery by truck,
for all our food and household products. I am thinking we might be heading
into a depression. I was born durning the last one. NJ is jacking gas prices
by 50 cents in the next couple days. We are retired and don't really need to
go anywhere we don't choose. We are fortunate in that way.



"madgardener" wrote in message
...
there's a problem Betsy........the prices have already hit $3.29. I use
regular since there's no way I can afford the "premium" gasoline at $3.59
per gallon. At Exxon stations, the premium gas is almost $4! I saw the
local Exxon showing prices for premium as $3.89. My best bet would have
actually been to have followed my instincts (too late now) and top off the
tank, again, and saved myself almost $4 for the total savings.

And that doesn't mean that $3.29 is the lowest price it will stop at
before the oil reserves are processed. That might take a little bit.
Enough time to clean me out of anything I have to go towards gasoline. At
least my son gets paid Friday, but that's every two weeks. So we have to
figure that yesterday's half tank of gasoline which cost $24.30 will today
cost us $32.90. That's $8.60 difference. Now factor in that unless I
jump on the $3.29 now, and wait until tomorrow morning, the price might
actually be HIGHER. And gas buddy's website is showing prices relevent to
Monday's prices when it was still a DOLLAR cheaper than it is three days
later................................... I don't know where you are, but
where I am, I'm feeling screwed and it ain't even getting started. Here's
the insult. I knew prices were going to go up. I even anticipated higher
everything prices eventually because of the cost of transporting. But what
I didn't expect was when I decided not to run the very necessairy errand
this afternoon after seeing the huge price increase, I stopped at the
local grocery store and they had ALREADY RAISED PRICES ON STORE
ITEMS..............yesterday I could have gotten the meager items for much
less. So gouging is already in progress before the set cost of all this
has become evident. I see a long season and winter ahead of me with lots
of rice and beans and cornbread...............

(you might think this is being extreme, let me give you the example:
yesterday, a good medium sized bottle of orange Dawn liquid detergent
would have cost me $1.89 with my Food City discount card. Today, that same
bottle was priced at $2.99. Now I know that bottle was there yesterday. It
wasn't brought in today by the truck. I went to get a couple of microwave
dinners for supper. Monday I could have gotten them for 2@$5. today those
same dinners were 2@$6 so you see, it hasn't even begun and the stores are
already taking advantage.

Now add insult to injury. My son's friend and his mother and aunt's headed
to Houston Sunday in the path of the hurricane. They checked into the
hotel and paid $52.95 + tax for their rooms each. Yesterday, Antonio told
my son that they were notified by the management that their room rates
were higher. They figured since they were approaching Labor Day weekend,
and went down to pay for a week in advance until they could find a condo
to rent. They were informed that the room rates were now $134.95 per
night, and this was no Marriott either. It was a nice average hotel on the
outskirts of Houston. He and his mother and aunt's are now frantically
searching for a condominium to rent to save money that the hotel is
gouging them for now.....................

'nuff said. And I figure there will be more attrocities in the upcoming
days and weeks and months. I won't bore anyone with updates on it. I've
said enough.
madgardener
"BetsyB" wrote in message
...
Oops! Here's an address to find your better gas prices.
http://www.gasbuddy.com/

BetsyB


"madgardener" wrote in message
...
and we ain't seen nothing yet on the effects this is gonna have I
realize,son works at Lowes at night stocking his store he used to work
days in plumbing......he doesn't have a CLUE what is about to unfold in
regards to products, deliveries, availabilities, etc................life
is about to change in ways people haven't seen since Depression days.
good thing I'm a pack rat when it comes to food supplies.........which
reminds me, I need to hit Wally world for arse wipe and liquid soap
while I can and while gas is ONLY $2.69 a
gallon...........sigh...................
maddie
"Marsha" wrote in message
...
It's horrifying
"madgardener" wrote in message
...

"Marsha" wrote in message
...
Hi Marilyn, we were asking this same question in another group

I just wonder what it's going to take to wake people up to the
inevitability of gas rationing, and astronomical prices of food,
products, etc. I mean, do they realize that despite we're still in
the end days of summer, we're approaching fall, and there are a lot of
people who heat their homes with oil? (I have a heat pump that works
off of electricity, and for back up during power outs, a simple
fireplace in one room with an electric blower which of course won't
work during a power outage, but at least I can open the doors g) and
that oil will be so highly priced they'll have to decide wheather to
be cold or buy high priced food?

sigh.................we ain't seen nothing yet on how this hurricane
has affected the country.................................(I was
horrified yesterday by them showing the main pipeline that runs from
New Orleans up thru to New York that has a major break in it....... I
mean, wanna just send flyers out to potential terrorists for strike
targets?? Geeze! and no, I don't normally worry about stuff like
that, I mean, I live less than 60 miles from Oak Ridge for crying out
loud, I won't have time to do more than put my head between my knees
and kiss my arse goodbye if something were to happen over
there............

Howze yer gardening going, lady? haven't heard from you in awhile.
I've been laying low, myself letting the weedy grasses overtake the
pathways, and enjoying the multitude of flowers that persist despite
my lack of involvement. Depression and disaster are interesting
bedmates. I've been struggling all summer. But at least I'm safe. I
feel badly for the people down in the gulf. And if it weren't for the
fact that I am the transportation for my son's job responsibilities,
I'd pack up and go down there and do what I could to help. I'd feel
much better doing that, believe me.

thanks for hollering back.
maddie

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
. ..

"madgardener" wrote in message
...
Whenever there is a natural disaster, the tsunami in the Indian
Ocean
for example, the world community expects the United States to help.

When a natural disaster hits the USA, the world community is silent.


Are you basing this on our wonderful media non-coverage of the "news?" If
it doesn't involve a missing drunk white girl or a runaway bride, you
aren't
going to hear about it. Foreign coverage of the news is out of the
question
when you have to have several segments on lip gloss and or how to pick a
good plastic surgeon. I've been watching the news coverage of this
disaster
and it is pathetic. No one is asking any tough questions. Most of the
"reporters" couldn't find their ass in the dark with a flashlight.

Or a damn roadmap!

Vox Humana wrote:
The comment wasn't directed at you, but the person who decided that we
needed guns instead of butter. The "Guns and Butter" curve is based on
the
fact that there is limited productivity. You can produce guns OR butter.
When one product goes up, the other goes down unless you can increase
productivity.

Which is why traditional war was initially good for the economy. It can
result in unemployed workers finding employment creating supplies for the
war. However over the last half century, our military has stockpiled most of
what they need ahead of time, so new jobs don't materialize as they did in
the past. (Our economy also isn't based as much on manufacturing, either.)

You also don't get the big production shift from consumer goods to war goods
even if the war continues. For example, when WWII there had been lots of
money made by working class people. For the first time in history, some
families had dual incomes. The women were working not because they needed
money. They were working because there was a labor shortage. But consumer
goods were either not manufacturered, or repurposed for the war effort, so
there wasn't anything to spend money on. That money was available to spend
after the war, and kept the economy humming for a few years.

Also, today, war is funded by taxes. Taxes that drain money from disposable
income. Taxes that aren't used as pooled money to buy things to fuel the
economy (such as roads). (The "guns and butter" curve does apply to Federal
spending.) All that extra income that couldn't be spent during WWII was put
into savings: Specifically war bonds that funded the war instead of direct
taxes. So instead of draining money from the economy like the current war,
WWII took advantage of disposable income that couldn't be spent.

So the current war didn't give us the initial boost in productivity. It
isn't providing additional disposable income to families. And it's draining
money from the economy in the form of direct taxes, rather than using
borrowed bond money.

So the "guns and butter" curve is actually only kicking in for the Federal
government. Disaster relief will further drain money from the pot the
Federal government has to spend, which will mean either less "butter" for
us, or higher taxes to raise the productivity of the Federal government. But
"guns and butter" doesn't apply to our economy directly as it did in the
past. We didn't see an initial boost in employment. We're not seeing
families gaining disposable income. And there won't be a big pool of money
that had been loaned to the government available to spend when the war is
over.

And now the huge amount of tax dollars that will be needed for disaster
relief will mean further money drained from the economy. There won't be as
much money for roads elsewhere. There won't be as much money for education.
There won't be as much money available for anything that relies on Federal
funding. And while there will be a lot of new jobs created to rebuild, those
new jobs are counter-balanced by all the jobs lost in the region. And the
money earned on those new jobs won't be going into the national economy.
It'll be funneled back into the regional economy for the rebuilding effort.

Funding a war and rebuilding the Gulf Coast at the same time is going to
cost us big time. Gas prices over $3 are just the beginning. At some point
we may find ourselves with a hard choice: Discontinue funding for either the
war or disaster relief, or allow the national economy to collapse. (Any bets
on what the current administration doesn't want to stop funding regardless
of the cost?) And that's when the "guns and butter" curve will kick in big
time. It no longer will just be something affecting the spending of Federal
tax dollars. It will affect our entire economy. Once that happens, "guns and
butter" will be very real to all of us.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/

Please don't think that way - that gas prices will cause a depression.

We might be in for a rough time over the next few weeks, but preliminary
indications are that the energy/gasoline problems coming from Katrina will
be temporary. The issue is not really the oil supply, but distribution, and
to a lesser extent, refinery capacity.

Regarding distribution, the broken pipelines in LA are being repaired as we
speak. Although port and rail out of NO harbor will take longer to restore,
they will be a priority. And the EPA has temporarily waived all of the
special fuel blend requirements for different parts of the country, so that
distributors can get gas from the places that have it to the places that
need it.

Regarding refining capacity, all of LA only has 8% of the nation's refinery
capacity - even if LA's refineries were out of commission for an extended
period (which they won't be), we could manage to conserve 8% of our gasoline
without too much hardship. Higher prices for gasoline hurt people's wallets,
and I know that they will be a hardship for some. However, they also will
encourage people to conserve - by planning ahead, limiting unneccessary
trips, etc.

Unfortunately, panic about gas supplies has exactly the opposite effect:
people go stock up on gas, including filling upevery container they can find
and hoarding gas. This causes an artificial shortage, which causes more
panic, which causes more people to hoard what they can find, and perpetuates
a vicious cycle. If we could get people to calm down and just take some
reasonable steps to conserve gas, we'd be fine. But given human nature, I
fear at least some areas will end up rationing gas over the next few weeks.
I really hope I'm wrong.

What's criminal is that the nation has not added any refinery capacity since
the 1970s. Don't you think we use just a *little* more gas now than we did
30 years ago? If we had some headroom in our petroleum refining and
distribution system, we wouldn't be in such a fix now.

My two cents' worth,
Laura


"BetsyB" wrote in message
...
The stores are reflecting what they are being charged for delivery by
truck, for all our food and household products. I am thinking we might be
heading into a depression. I was born durning the last one. NJ is jacking
gas prices by 50 cents in the next couple days. We are retired and don't
really need to go anywhere we don't choose. We are fortunate in that way.



"madgardener" wrote in message
...
there's a problem Betsy........the prices have already hit $3.29. I use
regular since there's no way I can afford the "premium" gasoline at $3.59
per gallon. At Exxon stations, the premium gas is almost $4! I saw the
local Exxon showing prices for premium as $3.89. My best bet would have
actually been to have followed my instincts (too late now) and top off
the tank, again, and saved myself almost $4 for the total savings.

And that doesn't mean that $3.29 is the lowest price it will stop at
before the oil reserves are processed. That might take a little bit.
Enough time to clean me out of anything I have to go towards gasoline.
At least my son gets paid Friday, but that's every two weeks. So we have
to figure that yesterday's half tank of gasoline which cost $24.30 will
today cost us $32.90. That's $8.60 difference. Now factor in that
unless I jump on the $3.29 now, and wait until tomorrow morning, the
price might actually be HIGHER. And gas buddy's website is showing
prices relevent to Monday's prices when it was still a DOLLAR cheaper
than it is three days later................................... I don't
know where you are, but where I am, I'm feeling screwed and it ain't even
getting started. Here's the insult. I knew prices were going to go up. I
even anticipated higher everything prices eventually because of the cost
of transporting. But what I didn't expect was when I decided not to run
the very necessairy errand this afternoon after seeing the huge price
increase, I stopped at the local grocery store and they had ALREADY
RAISED PRICES ON STORE ITEMS..............yesterday I could have gotten
the meager items for much less. So gouging is already in progress before
the set cost of all this has become evident. I see a long season and
winter ahead of me with lots of rice and beans and
cornbread...............

(you might think this is being extreme, let me give you the example:
yesterday, a good medium sized bottle of orange Dawn liquid detergent
would have cost me $1.89 with my Food City discount card. Today, that
same bottle was priced at $2.99. Now I know that bottle was there
yesterday. It wasn't brought in today by the truck. I went to get a
couple of microwave dinners for supper. Monday I could have gotten them
for 2@$5. today those same dinners were 2@$6 so you see, it hasn't even
begun and the stores are already taking advantage.

Now add insult to injury. My son's friend and his mother and aunt's
headed to Houston Sunday in the path of the hurricane. They checked into
the hotel and paid $52.95 + tax for their rooms each. Yesterday, Antonio
told my son that they were notified by the management that their room
rates were higher. They figured since they were approaching Labor Day
weekend, and went down to pay for a week in advance until they could find
a condo to rent. They were informed that the room rates were now $134.95
per night, and this was no Marriott either. It was a nice average hotel
on the outskirts of Houston. He and his mother and aunt's are now
frantically searching for a condominium to rent to save money that the
hotel is gouging them for now.....................

'nuff said. And I figure there will be more attrocities in the upcoming
days and weeks and months. I won't bore anyone with updates on it. I've
said enough.
madgardener
"BetsyB" wrote in message
...
Oops! Here's an address to find your better gas prices.
http://www.gasbuddy.com/

BetsyB


"madgardener" wrote in message
...
and we ain't seen nothing yet on the effects this is gonna have I
realize,son works at Lowes at night stocking his store he used to work
days in plumbing......he doesn't have a CLUE what is about to unfold in
regards to products, deliveries, availabilities,
etc................life is about to change in ways people haven't seen
since Depression days. good thing I'm a pack rat when it comes to food
supplies.........which reminds me, I need to hit Wally world for arse
wipe and liquid soap while I can and while gas is ONLY $2.69 a
gallon...........sigh...................
maddie
"Marsha" wrote in message
...
It's horrifying
"madgardener" wrote in message
...

"Marsha" wrote in message
...
Hi Marilyn, we were asking this same question in another group

I just wonder what it's going to take to wake people up to the
inevitability of gas rationing, and astronomical prices of food,
products, etc. I mean, do they realize that despite we're still in
the end days of summer, we're approaching fall, and there are a lot
of people who heat their homes with oil? (I have a heat pump that
works off of electricity, and for back up during power outs, a simple
fireplace in one room with an electric blower which of course won't
work during a power outage, but at least I can open the doors g)
and that oil will be so highly priced they'll have to decide wheather
to be cold or buy high priced food?

sigh.................we ain't seen nothing yet on how this hurricane
has affected the country.................................(I was
horrified yesterday by them showing the main pipeline that runs from
New Orleans up thru to New York that has a major break in it....... I
mean, wanna just send flyers out to potential terrorists for strike
targets?? Geeze! and no, I don't normally worry about stuff like
that, I mean, I live less than 60 miles from Oak Ridge for crying out
loud, I won't have time to do more than put my head between my knees
and kiss my arse goodbye if something were to happen over
there............

Howze yer gardening going, lady? haven't heard from you in awhile.
I've been laying low, myself letting the weedy grasses overtake the
pathways, and enjoying the multitude of flowers that persist despite
my lack of involvement. Depression and disaster are interesting
bedmates. I've been struggling all summer. But at least I'm safe. I
feel badly for the people down in the gulf. And if it weren't for
the fact that I am the transportation for my son's job
responsibilities, I'd pack up and go down there and do what I could
to help. I'd feel much better doing that, believe me.

thanks for hollering back.
maddie

"BetsyB" wrote in message
...
The stores are reflecting what they are being charged for delivery by
truck,
for all our food and household products. I am thinking we might be heading
into a depression. I was born durning the last one. NJ is jacking gas
prices
by 50 cents in the next couple days. We are retired and don't really need
to
go anywhere we don't choose. We are fortunate in that way.



We have already started changing our habits. I don't leave home unless I
know where and why I am going. But, even if you stay home this is going to
get you. A cold winter has been predicted and all energy prices are going
to rise due to disruption in supply or distribution along with a strong
demand from developing countries like China. Everything has an energy
component in the price, both for production and transportation. Insurance
prices are likely to rise, also. I think that we were in bad spot already
with a jobless recovery. Wages are slipping and poverty is growing. With
most people only a couple of paychecks from disaster, I think you may be
right about the depression. It's breathtaking to think that we have gone
from a surplus to a financial disaster in about 5 years.

In article says...
So the current war didn't give us the initial boost in productivity. It
isn't providing additional disposable income to families. And it's draining
money from the economy in the form of direct taxes, rather than using
borrowed bond money.

Not that this has anything to do with gardening nor do I disagree with
your overall statement except that the current war is not currently
draining money from the economy in the form of direct taxes. Not one
person in the US has paid a single dime to support the current war. All
the money is being borrowed which may or may not be paid by future
generations. Ironically, one of the main purchasers of US debt is China
so, in effect, China is funding the Iraq war, a war I don't think
they're too happy about BTW.

As for Katrina relief, no worry. The feds still have plenty of
borrowing power left. What's another $100 billion on top of over $7
trillion? Why not make that debt $10 trillion. Eat, drink, and be
merry for tomorrow we shall die!

"Warren" wrote in message
...
Vox Humana wrote:
The comment wasn't directed at you, but the person who decided that we
needed guns instead of butter. The "Guns and Butter" curve is based on
the
fact that there is limited productivity. You can produce guns OR
butter.
When one product goes up, the other goes down unless you can increase
productivity.

Which is why traditional war was initially good for the economy. It can
result in unemployed workers finding employment creating supplies for the
war. However over the last half century, our military has stockpiled most
of
what they need ahead of time, so new jobs don't materialize as they did in
the past. (Our economy also isn't based as much on manufacturing, either.)

You also don't get the big production shift from consumer goods to war
goods
even if the war continues. For example, when WWII there had been lots of
money made by working class people. For the first time in history, some
families had dual incomes. The women were working not because they needed
money. They were working because there was a labor shortage. But consumer
goods were either not manufacturered, or repurposed for the war effort, so
there wasn't anything to spend money on. That money was available to spend
after the war, and kept the economy humming for a few years.

Also, today, war is funded by taxes. Taxes that drain money from
disposable
income. Taxes that aren't used as pooled money to buy things to fuel the
economy (such as roads). (The "guns and butter" curve does apply to
Federal
spending.) All that extra income that couldn't be spent during WWII was
put
into savings: Specifically war bonds that funded the war instead of direct
taxes. So instead of draining money from the economy like the current war,
WWII took advantage of disposable income that couldn't be spent.

So the current war didn't give us the initial boost in productivity. It
isn't providing additional disposable income to families. And it's
draining
money from the economy in the form of direct taxes, rather than using
borrowed bond money.

So the "guns and butter" curve is actually only kicking in for the Federal
government. Disaster relief will further drain money from the pot the
Federal government has to spend, which will mean either less "butter" for
us, or higher taxes to raise the productivity of the Federal government.
But
"guns and butter" doesn't apply to our economy directly as it did in the
past. We didn't see an initial boost in employment. We're not seeing
families gaining disposable income. And there won't be a big pool of money
that had been loaned to the government available to spend when the war is
over.

And now the huge amount of tax dollars that will be needed for disaster
relief will mean further money drained from the economy. There won't be as
much money for roads elsewhere. There won't be as much money for
education.
There won't be as much money available for anything that relies on Federal
funding. And while there will be a lot of new jobs created to rebuild,
those
new jobs are counter-balanced by all the jobs lost in the region. And the
money earned on those new jobs won't be going into the national economy.
It'll be funneled back into the regional economy for the rebuilding
effort.

Funding a war and rebuilding the Gulf Coast at the same time is going to
cost us big time. Gas prices over $3 are just the beginning. At some point
we may find ourselves with a hard choice: Discontinue funding for either
the
war or disaster relief, or allow the national economy to collapse. (Any
bets
on what the current administration doesn't want to stop funding regardless
of the cost?) And that's when the "guns and butter" curve will kick in big
time. It no longer will just be something affecting the spending of
Federal
tax dollars. It will affect our entire economy. Once that happens, "guns
and
butter" will be very real to all of us.


Your point is well taken. I was thinking primarily about the federal
government's ability to fund infrastructure. Ironically, this
administration CUT money for the levee project in New Orleans. The Army
Corp of Engineers said the money was cut because of the war, thus the "Guns
or Butter" analogy. I think that all in-county issues aside (like
insurgents and training of new terrorists), the war has made us less safe
because we can't invest in infrastructure and disaster planning. We heard
about dirty bombs and biological weapons for months last year during the
campaign. However, when the shit hit the fan, apparently we haven't a clue
about how to respond to a catastrophe. Today I almost spit when I heard the
president tell Diane Sawyer that no one could have predicted the failure of
the levees!