Seahag wrote:

The deer had a garden feast night before last. Ate the last
bedraggled cuke, the squash right to the ground, bits off
the pumpkins, carrot tops, peppers, and most of the
tomatoes. I haven't been over to see the damage yet so I
don't know how the corn, okra, and eggplant fared. They
don't seem to care for the Brandywines as much as the
cherries and Beefsteaks tho. They totally ignore the
English Ivy that we'd love to get rid of. I think it was
revenge for the chunk of firewood my buddy chucked at a deer
on Saturday.

Seahag



yep, it's a deer conspiracy........lol!

Of course I'm not your enemy. I am one with cows, fish and poultry, and
yet, I eat them. Hunters I know don't kill deer because they have a
problem with them. They do it for the food. OK...one guy does it to get
away from his disgusting wife. But the rest do it for food.
I read once that many hunters really are not in it for the kill, but they
like being in the wilderness. It was a subconscious thing.

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:05:56 -0400, "symplastless"
wrote:

I have dissected a scots pine that had ivy all over the ground . The tree
was the healthiest scots pine I have seen.
So some trees may be companion plants and some not. Again, other than
blocking sunlight from needles and leaves I know of no published research
showing that ivy kills trees. I personally do not like ivy growing on
trees. The reason is because it covers up defects and signs of a high risk
of hazard situation such as cracks and so on.

Does anyone have data (peer reviewed published papers) showing that ivy
kills trees. I would like to read it and place it in my dictionary for all
to read under hard to get docs.

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.

I haven't seen any serious problems with English Ivy around
here but grapevines and poison ivy are another story.

What happens is they eventually weaken the tree via shading,
competition for moisture and at the same time put quite a
bit extra weight load on the tree skeleton/structure. Now
when a good wind comes up they get blown over due to the
extra wind loading, weight and weakening to the trees
ability to support itself and vine.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

What happens is they eventually weaken the tree via shading,
competition for moisture and at the same time put quite a
bit extra weight load on the tree skeleton/structure. Now
when a good wind comes up they get blown over due to the
extra wind loading, weight and weakening to the trees
ability to support itself and vine.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


The tree would form response wood over time to make up for the weight of
vines. Trees can adjust and adapt in certain cases put material where it
is required for mechanical optimization. There is a strangler ficus tree in
the tropical's that grows around a tree and when the tree symplast dies and
the tree is decomposed with the help of the succession of microorganisms,
it then remains with a hollow tube on the inside.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:50:41 -0400, "symplastless"
wrote:



What happens is they eventually weaken the tree via shading,
competition for moisture and at the same time put quite a
bit extra weight load on the tree skeleton/structure. Now
when a good wind comes up they get blown over due to the
extra wind loading, weight and weakening to the trees
ability to support itself and vine.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


The tree would form response wood over time to make up for the weight of
vines. Trees can adjust and adapt in certain cases put material where it
is required for mechanical optimization. There is a strangler ficus tree in
the tropical's that grows around a tree and when the tree symplast dies and
the tree is decomposed with the help of the succession of microorganisms,
it then remains with a hollow tube on the inside.

The vines growth rate is much too fast for the tree to keep
up. In the time it takes for the tree to grow a few inches
the vine has grown many feet.

If the growth rates were matched the tree might have a
chance.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

http://cals.arizona.edu/yavapai/anr/...nglishivy.html

While English ivy cultivars are excellent accent plants in containers,
plain old English ivy is not the most desirable landscape plant. Some
of its problems include damage to structures from rootlets, creating
refuge areas for pests (undesirable insects and rodents), and invasion
into natural areas where it displaces native vegetation. English ivy
is also poisonous. The cell sap causes severe skin irritation and the
berries and leaves are toxic if ingested.

English ivy can also damage trees when it climbs the trunk and
competes for water, nutrients, and light. Ivy climbing trees should be
carefully removed to avoid damage to the tree trunk and cleared away
from the soil at the base of the tree. This is not as easy as it
sounds because ivy roots can become closely intertwined with the tree
roots. I suggest clearing ivy away from the trunk for at least a three
foot distance.

might also try laying fencing down on the ground around the beds. the
type of fencing that is wider "holes", green plastic covered fencing.
they dont like stepping on it because it "feels" like a leg trap.
Ingrid

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:28:19 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:
consider an electric fence. By fence I mean a
wire about 3 feet above the ground and a second
wire about 1 foot above the ground. The second
wire is for racoons and groundhogs. Smear peanut
butter on the wires. Deer and other critters love
peanut butter. Once they get shocked a couple
times after licking, they stay clear.

This is used by several commercial vineyards near
me and they swear by it.

English ivy can also damage trees when it climbs the trunk and
competes for water, nutrients, and light.

When you say nutrients what do you mean? Are you referring to products of
photosynthesis or are you talking about essential elements?

here is a list of elements.
Food is a substance that provides and energy source, mostly. Nutrient is a
substance that provides an energy source, elements, and other substances
essential for life, in types and amounts that can provide a healthy life.
Fertilizer is a substance that provides elements, as salts mostly, or in
bonded forms, that require microorganisms to alter to forms that can be
absorbed by plants. I do not call elements - nutrients, however nutrients
would contain elements. You can put a file in a folder but you can't put a
folder in a file. A list of elements can be found he
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...US211%26sa%3DX

17 Elements For Life - Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Phosphorus,
Potassium, Calcium, Sulfur, Magnesium, Manganese, Iron, Copper, Boron,
Molybdenum, Chlorine, Zinc, Nickel [Sodium, Cobalt, Selenium?]

14 essential elements are obtained by trees from the soil. I do not have a
list of which ones they are.

Wood is the substrate of the base of the food web, the mycorrhizal fungi.
Mycorrhizae tend to be abundant in composted wood such as nurse logs. We
had great success at tree biology workshops finding mycorrhizae during dryer
times, in and about nurse logs. I believe, you don't have to agree with it,
please, just think. I think that by applying mulch as I recommend under
mulch here that you facilitate the mycorrhizae rather than just adding what
I believe you mean as humus, over a lawn. Not that its bad in any way,
adding humus i.e..

Mulching - http://home.ccil.org/~treeman/sub3.html
and
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/M/ Look up "Mulch"

Did I say - Mycorrhizae are organs that facilitate the absorption of
elements essential for healthy growth. Mycorrhizae resist the Demons Of D.
Mycorrhizae facilitate the absorption of elements. Demons of D are those
things that add up to the big D word DEATH. E.g., Depletion, disruption,
and dysfunction. Elements can be depleted. Disruption, you get hit my a
Mac truck. Dysfunction, some organ such as mycorrhizae may not function.


Major Elements C; H; N; O; P; K; S; Mg; Ni; Fe; Ca; Zn; Mo; Mn; B; Cl; Cu

There is the law of the minimum. It states the element that is deficient
the most, would be the determining factor in the health of the tree.

I think research would be wise in the search for the optimum fertility level
for trees.

I did some soil testing in the upper four inches of soil and from at and
about nurse logs in old growth forest which contain hemlocks and white
pines. And much more. Here is my average on my testing for the latter.
These where five test. 3 test sites where in Allegheny National
Forest(Hearts Content) Pennsylvania
and two where in Allegheny National Forest(Tionesta Scenic area)
Pennsylvania.
Results are in Pounds Per Acre PPA. AVAILABLE ELEMENTS
P 8.2
K 236
Mg 107
Ca 594
Al 220.6
Fe 110.8
Mn 118.6
Zn 11.96
NO3-N 28.8
Did not get B or CU.
Organic matter was 29.32%
Ex Acidity 81 ME/100G
Salts mmho: 0.01 mmho/cm
Moisture %3.97
Water Soluble mg/kg B 1.0738
ACID Soluble (mg/kg)
Cd 0.976
Cu 6.768
Ni 5.71 (Penn State discovered the element Ni to be essential in small
amounts)
Mn 426.378
Co 3.084
Zn 46.818
Pb 101.792
Cr 5.078
P 726.226
The CARBON TO NITROGEN RATION was 27:1
pH 4.2 WOW

That would be a goal of mine if I was going to provide essential elements
professionally. I did not see to many people in the old growth sections.

There was more calcium at a nurse logs in a separate test.

We don't feed trees, however, we can feed the soil with composted wood
(chips and nurse logs) and leaves. We can feed the system.

I have some results for some sick hemlocks (elements in soil)


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.