In article ,
says...
In misc.rural davefr wrote:

Craftsman is a little lower in quality but not as much as you'd think.
(a little hunkier form factor but probably about as strong as Snap On
which is a tad more compact and can get into tighter spaces).

For tight spaces, the angle of rotation of the handle needed to get a
"click" on the ratchet can matter. Finer teeth=more chance of getting
that one almost-unreachable bolt out. Beats doing the "pull it out, turn
the socket 1/12th of a turn & re-insert" trick over and over. The
snap-on (and probably others) ratchets have finer teeth than the
Craftsman, and I can think of one particular starter bolt on one
vehicle of mine that is impossible without a very small arc of spin.

I have a Craftsman ratchet that has incredibly fine teeth (I
think they're double teeth). It's likely 30 years old and they
certainly haven't made them in a long time. It has the release
button and the knurled wheel on the face. I wish they still made
these! I'd love to have a 1/2" drive.


2. Snap On is a "cult".
HOS"pecking order" of mechanics is often a
function of who has the largest Snap On "hot dog stand' w/the most
tools.

That is true; some of it is branding. But, they did get a reputation
for a valid reason.

Sure, though the reason isn't the tool. Snapon service sells the
tools. IIRC, Snapon killed a lot of their business by allowing
too many franchises. Wasn't there a class-action suit against
them by their franchisees?

--
Keith

In article ,
says...
In misc.rural Keith R. Williams wrote:
In article ,
says...
(regarding SnapOn)
That is true; some of it is branding. But, they did get a reputation
for a valid reason.

Sure, though the reason isn't the tool. Snapon service sells the
tools.

Sorry, but I disagree. The current line of Craftsman has good service
too, but they're not as robust or comfortable as the snapon tools.

I didn't know Sears went to mechanics to sell tools. I didn't
know they came around to the mechanics and replaced defective
tools.

The service is fine, but the service doesn't help on a sunday night when yet
another craftsman ratchet goes stupid on you. I have only had one failure
of a SnapOn ratchet, and that was my own fault.

I've never had a Craftsman drive fail either. I've one for
thirty years. One of my screwdrivers has closer to 40 years on
it. I've used a friend's Snap-ons. Snap-on makes good tools no
doubt, though Craftsman *hand* tools are not that bad.

The geometry of their sockets is novel and quite effective as well...there
are real differences, not just in sales.

The major difference is the snap-on sockets are thinner while
being at least as strong. They're finishing is somewhat better
too. However, it's the service that sells Snap-on. Their
customers aren't home-owners and weekend mechanics.

IIRC, Snapon killed a lot of their business by allowing
too many franchises. Wasn't there a class-action suit against
them by their franchisees?

Dunno about the corporate end of things, I just recognize and use good tools.

--
Keith

In misc.rural Keith R. Williams wrote:
In article ,
says...

Sorry, but I disagree. The current line of Craftsman has good service
too, but they're not as robust or comfortable as the snapon tools.

I didn't know Sears went to mechanics to sell tools. I didn't
know they came around to the mechanics and replaced defective
tools.

I didn't say they do; they replace broken tools, which is reasonably good
service. My point is, I don't care if they'd come out & polish them
weekly for me, I still have no use for a tool that's more likely to
fail. I've had craftsman sockets split up the sides, using hand pressure.
Not good.

The service is fine, but the service doesn't help on a sunday night when yet
another craftsman ratchet goes stupid on you. I have only had one failure
of a SnapOn ratchet, and that was my own fault.

I've never had a Craftsman drive fail either. I've one for
thirty years. One of my screwdrivers has closer to 40 years on
it.

Perhaps they were making them better 40 years ago?

I've used a friend's Snap-ons. Snap-on makes good tools no
doubt, though Craftsman *hand* tools are not that bad.


The geometry of their sockets is novel and quite effective as well...there
are real differences, not just in sales.

The major difference is the snap-on sockets are thinner while
being at least as strong.

Nope. The geometry is different; the corners are somewhat further from
the center of the fastner than you would expect, which minimizes rounding of
seized bolts & nuts. I've used them to take off some pretty ugly looking
(rounded) fasteners, and as they work on the flats and not just the corners,
it works great. I seem to recall they have a patent on that particular
socket geometry; I'm sure a poke around on their website would be useful
but I'm just in for a little bit before heading back outside to put the
tiller on the garden tractor

They're finishing is somewhat better
too. However, it's the service that sells Snap-on. Their
customers aren't home-owners and weekend mechanics.

Great service would be useless if the tool quality didn't back it up.

Dave Hinz

My point is, I don't care if they'd come out & polish them
weekly for me, I still have no use for a tool that's more likely to
fail. I've had craftsman sockets split up the sides, using hand pressure.
Not good.

i notice that lately sears tools seem to do that.... compared to the
older sears(craftsman tools i bought 35 yrs. ago, the quality does not
seem to be in the newer craftsman tools... the sides of the sockets seem
thinner, and not finished as smooth as the older stuff)???????

wrote in message
...
In misc.rural Keith R. Williams wrote:
In article ,
says...

Sorry, but I disagree. The current line of Craftsman has good service
too, but they're not as robust or comfortable as the snapon tools.

I didn't know Sears went to mechanics to sell tools. I didn't
know they came around to the mechanics and replaced defective
tools.

I didn't say they do; they replace broken tools, which is reasonably good
service. My point is, I don't care if they'd come out & polish them
weekly for me, I still have no use for a tool that's more likely to
fail. I've had craftsman sockets split up the sides, using hand pressure.
Not good.

The service is fine, but the service doesn't help on a sunday night
when yet
another craftsman ratchet goes stupid on you. I have only had one
failure
of a SnapOn ratchet, and that was my own fault.

I've never had a Craftsman drive fail either. I've one for
thirty years. One of my screwdrivers has closer to 40 years on
it.

Perhaps they were making them better 40 years ago?

I've used a friend's Snap-ons. Snap-on makes good tools no
doubt, though Craftsman *hand* tools are not that bad.


The geometry of their sockets is novel and quite effective as
well...there
are real differences, not just in sales.

The major difference is the snap-on sockets are thinner while
being at least as strong.

Nope. The geometry is different; the corners are somewhat further from
the center of the fastner than you would expect, which minimizes rounding
of
seized bolts & nuts. I've used them to take off some pretty ugly looking
(rounded) fasteners, and as they work on the flats and not just the
corners,
it works great. I seem to recall they have a patent on that particular
socket geometry; I'm sure a poke around on their website would be useful
but I'm just in for a little bit before heading back outside to put the
tiller on the garden tractor

They're finishing is somewhat better
too. However, it's the service that sells Snap-on. Their
customers aren't home-owners and weekend mechanics.

Great service would be useless if the tool quality didn't back it up.

Dave Hinz


I'll just chime in to agree with Dave. Snap on and Mac (I own them both and
consider them fairly equal) are a step above the rest. Both offer six and
twelve point sockets and just about no one else does. I buy mine off ebay
or work a deal with the guy on the truck. Their prices are higher but IMHO
so is the quality. Never popped a Snap on or Mac but have trashed just
about every other brand working at someone else's shop. Craftsman isn't in
my shop. And along those lines Kenmore isn't in my laundry room or kitchen
anymore either.

Tom Jaszewski wrote:
Please translate that one? Other than Sears being f-ed up, what's
wrong with Kenmore/Whirlpool? Both are consistently at the top of
their class in Consumer Reports..

Kenmore and Whirlpool are not synonymous. Kenmore is nothing more than a
store brand slapped onto appliances built by someone else. Whirlpool, GE
and Maytag are just some of the companies that make various products
that carry the Kenmore label. The question becomes: Are Kenmore versions
less expensive than the name brand because they take short-cuts for
Sears, or do they cost less because Sears passes along a buy-in-bulk
costs to the consumer." My guess is that it's the former.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.

In article %3kta.493707$Zo.109026@sccrnsc03,
Warren wrote:

Kenmore and Whirlpool are not synonymous. Kenmore is nothing more than a
store brand slapped onto appliances built by someone else. Whirlpool, GE
and Maytag are just some of the companies that make various products
that carry the Kenmore label. The question becomes: Are Kenmore versions
less expensive than the name brand because they take short-cuts for
Sears, or do they cost less because Sears passes along a buy-in-bulk
costs to the consumer." My guess is that it's the former.


I am no big lover of Sears, but let me take a moment to mention that in
some cases the Kenmore version of a product is more featureful than the
non-Kenmore product. An example of this is my garbage disposal, a Kenmore.
The Kenmore version of the disposal (made by Insinkerator) has an
autoreversing feature that is not found in the equivalent model sold under
the Insinkerator label for roughly the same price.


Manufacturers make Kenmore products to Sears specifications. It might be
true that short-cuts are taken sometimes, but it is not necessarily true.
Personally, I think that the Kenmore and non-Kenmore product is often
identical and the price usually reflects that.


Dimitri

about every other brand working at someone else's shop. Craftsman isn't in
my shop. And along those lines Kenmore isn't in my laundry room or kitchen
anymore either.

How about Whirlpool? I think they are labeling Kenmore just now. Did you
know that Sears manufactures absolutely nothing?

Different manufacturers make Craftsman hand tools as well. Some have been
excellent, some pretty bad over the years. I don't go by the brand name. I
go by the quality. You DO know a good tool when you see one, don't you? When
you see good tools at a great price, swallow your pride and pay less for
them.

At times, Craftsman quality has been fabulous, and may be again some day. I
have a 25 year old socket set that is every bit as good as Snap-On. Wouldn't
take nothing for it.

Right now, I must agree that Craftsman quality is not too good overall. I
did recently buy a good Craftsman vise, and I like those laminated pliers.
Man, those babies are pricey. I'll have to wait for a sale or something.

Bob

On Mon, 5 May 2003 05:10:50 +0000 (UTC), (D.
Gerasimatos) wrote:


I am no big lover of Sears, but let me take a moment to mention that in
some cases the Kenmore version of a product is more featureful than the
non-Kenmore product. An example of this is my garbage disposal, a Kenmore.

True!

My Sears Kitchen Aid dish washer is stainless inside and out. I could not
find a comparable Kitchen Aid model.

Bob