animaux wrote in message
...
On 26 Apr 2003 13:11:26 GMT, wrote:

Am I the only one who buys better tools and doesn't have to return them
at all? I just don't get this whole "They break alot, and this is a
feature" sales thing. I'd rather have a tool that stands up to long
work and won't break 6 times.

I bought a yard broom way back in the sixties and apart from three new heads
and two new handles it is as good as it was the day I bought it:-)

wrote:

Am I the only one who buys better tools and doesn't have to return

them

In the last two years I've thinned 3 acres of woods, that eat up 4
pruners. I have added a weed whacker with a brush blame so I should slow
down on breaking pruners.
During the same two years I've dug, screened and move over 40cu yds of
soil. This week I've moved over 8 tons of rock. The largest piece of
equipment I have is a lawn tractor, w/trailer. It was all done by hand
shovels break.

I had an Asparagus Bed I HAD to dig up that ate two digging forks. That
was when they were wooden handles. I turn my gardens by hand and I have
so many rocks in my gardens the tines in my forks weaken after a few
years of digging. That has eaten up four more.

I did have a shovel fall out of my trailer and somehow got run over. Not
quite sure how that happened.

Like I said in a previous post my tools see a lot of work and I work
them hard, they break, I replace them-for FREE.
Sears is less than an hour away so I can replace them in a timely manner.

Kevin

Remove SNIP to reply

Pity no one has handles covered in "Scotchlite"(The stuff they use on road
signs and on trimming on things like fireman's coats) on their tools, then
all you would need to do to find the lost tool is to go out at night with a
good flash light, they would show up so easily.
--
David Hill
Abacus Nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 06:22:01 -0500, "DaveG"
wrote:






(Partially snipped)

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand will
never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.

That's the key. Holding the ratchet. Where does the average joe six pack
go to buy Snap-On?

Gee, just a couple click away is:
www.snapon.com or www.ebay.com

I agree about the superior quality of these tools, though. My pal is a
diesel mechanic, and uses this brand.

There used to be a bigger difference between Snap On and other tools
but not anymore. Snap On is excellent but S-K, ACE Professional,
NAPA, Kobalt (Lowes) are equivalent quality in wrenches, ratchets,
sockets, etc but not as wide a selection but much lower cost.

Craftsman is a little lower in quality but not as much as you'd think.
(a little hunkier form factor but probably about as strong as Snap On
which is a tad more compact and can get into tighter spaces).

A lot of mechanics are saying hell with Snap On and buying Crapsman.


They are really a pleasure to use. But man do they cost! But he makes good
money at his job, gets a tool allownace, and can depreciate the costs on his
income taxes, not so for most of us.

You're right. Snap On is double the market price for equivalent
quality but that's based on:

1. The 1:1 service from a dealer. The dealer can't operate off retail
margins. Mechanics hate to spend their weekends shopping for tools.
That 2X price is worth it to them to get localized one stop shopping
and credit and beside that, the dealers are usually good salesmen or
they don't survive.

Joe six pack doesn't get that service so why pay for it.

2. Snap On is a "cult". The "pecking order" of mechanics is often a
function of who has the largest Snap On "hot dog stand' w/the most
tools.


Dave

Jan

davefr wrote in
:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 06:22:01 -0500, "DaveG"
wrote:






(Partially snipped)

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand
will
never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.

That's the key. Holding the ratchet. Where does the average joe six
pack go to buy Snap-On?

Gee, just a couple click away is:
www.snapon.com or www.ebay.com

I agree about the superior quality of these tools, though. My pal is
a
diesel mechanic, and uses this brand.

There used to be a bigger difference between Snap On and other tools
but not anymore. Snap On is excellent but S-K, ACE Professional,
NAPA, Kobalt (Lowes) are equivalent quality in wrenches, ratchets,
sockets, etc but not as wide a selection but much lower cost.

Craftsman is a little lower in quality but not as much as you'd think.
(a little hunkier form factor but probably about as strong as Snap On
which is a tad more compact and can get into tighter spaces).

A lot of mechanics are saying hell with Snap On and buying Crapsman.


They are really a pleasure to use. But man do they cost! But he
makes good money at his job, gets a tool allownace, and can depreciate
the costs on his income taxes, not so for most of us.

You're right. Snap On is double the market price for equivalent
quality but that's based on:

1. The 1:1 service from a dealer. The dealer can't operate off retail
margins. Mechanics hate to spend their weekends shopping for tools.
That 2X price is worth it to them to get localized one stop shopping
and credit and beside that, the dealers are usually good salesmen or
they don't survive.

Joe six pack doesn't get that service so why pay for it.

2. Snap On is a "cult". The "pecking order" of mechanics is often a
function of who has the largest Snap On "hot dog stand' w/the most
tools.

As a female that bought many tools (company paid for) Snap-on tools are
weighted well and feel good in your hand. I also ike Proto tools. I buy
Snap-on for my personal use. I call them on the phone and a truck shows up
with my tools.

On 26 Apr 2003 13:11:26 GMT, wrote:


Am I the only one who buys better tools and doesn't have to return them
at all? I just don't get this whole "They break alot, and this is a
feature" sales thing. I'd rather have a tool that stands up to long
work and won't break 6 times.

I mean, 3rd replacement since December?

"Better tools" are where you find them.

I found a Chinese-made hand ax at Wal-Mart, and inspected it closely. Good
handle, properly tempered at the edge. Hadn't seen one of quality this high
in years. I bought it for $6, used it for years. Still have it.

Found Chinese-made shovels at a hardware store, excellent handle and temper.
$5.

I have not been able to find inexpensive hand tools. I demand the best
quality screwdrivers, socket sets, and pliers. Only Craftsman, Crescent (my
favorite) and Channel Lock (quality is fading) are good enough to win a spot
in my tool box.

Bob

On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:02:15 GMT, animaux wrote:


everything from Elliott Coleman designed tools, Smith and Hawkins, and up. I've
paid 45 dollars on shovels and 10 dollars. Both wore out or got chipped. I
have black soil, Texas T...ya'll come back now.

Ewww...gumbo. I hate that sticky black dirt. It's like shoveling un-chewed
bubble gum. I think you could make armor-piercing tank shells out of it when
dried in the sun.

Bob

The message
from "david" contains these words:

Pity no one has handles covered in "Scotchlite"(The stuff they use on road
signs and on trimming on things like fireman's coats) on their tools, then
all you would need to do to find the lost tool is to go out at night with a
good flash light, they would show up so easily.

Funnily enough, I've got a forester's treeplanting spade made by
Chieftain Forge (Scotland, possibly Grangemouth) which has a something
very like that on the shaft; about the only tool that never got lost in
our last (very large) garden. It has a narrow blade infinitely useful
for all sorts of other jobs.

Janet.

On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 07:56:08 -0500, Bob Adkins wrote:


Ewww...gumbo. I hate that sticky black dirt. It's like shoveling un-chewed
bubble gum. I think you could make armor-piercing tank shells out of it when
dried in the sun.

Bob

Yeah, well! It's also loaded with minerals and life now that I put a few dozen
yards of compost on it and I do work it all by hand at the proper time. No
tillers for me.

Not to change the subject, but finally this will be the first year in this
garden where plants are maturing in their places and I can see the light at the
end of the tunnel of constantly planting and honing.

Trees are growing, shrubs are growing, things are flowering and are mature.
Perennials look great. Strawberries have fruits the size of a half dollar coin.

I love my garden now. It's really getting there.

V

In misc.rural Warren wrote:
wrote:

Am I the only one who buys better tools and doesn't have to return
them
at all? I just don't get this whole "They break alot, and this is a
feature" sales thing.

Well, you probably are one of the few who use a tool the way it's
designed. Most of us not only don't own more than one general use hammer
(as opposed to the correct hammer for various jobs), and a lot of the
time we don't bother getting the hammer out. We use whatever solid
object is handy as a hammer.

I'm not sure about that. Yes, I have an awful lot of tools, and almost
always try to use the appropriate tool for a job; breaker bar for stuck
bolts, the correct hammer, and so on. But, I'm pretty sure I'm not
alone here - I'd suspect that the majority of folks who have tools
that they rely on, will have and use them properly?

Also, with many tools, there are parts that are meant to wear-out, or
even break under stress. Wooden handles come to mind. It's simply
easier, and not much more expensive, to replace the whole tool than it
is to buy a new handle, and repair the tool.

It is? When I need a new handle, I go down to Farm & Fleet, pick one up,
drill/drive the old one out, and install the new handle. 15 minute job,
tops.

And finally, to many people, what the tool is used for is the activity
they are focused on, not maintaining the tool. When I work in the
garden, I tend to work until I'm ready to drop. I barely have the energy
to collect the tools and put them away, let alone clean them and
maintain them. On the other hand, you may fall into the category of
people who love their tools, and the activity is just a way to show how
you can use the tool.

Hm. I was always taught that the job isn't over until the tools are
put away.

To each his own. Personally I'm glad that there are inexpensive tools
that are never intended to be repaired that are sturdier than toys. It
means I don't have to feel guilty when I replace my shovel instead of
repairing it after I've used it to move a boulder instead of getting a
bar that was designed for the job. I can pound that nail with the side
of my ratchet wrench. I can open the paint can with the screwdriver, and
I can use the tiny bypass trimmer to hack through a woody growth twice
the size it was designed to snip. No way I could do this if my tools
were expensive. And I don't have to set aside time for tool maintenance,
either.

Just because they're expensive doesn't mean they don't get used,
and occasionally abused. I figure the difference is that the expensive
one will take more use and more abuse.


In my father's day, my attitude towards tools would have been in the
minority. These days, thanks to those inexpensive tools, I may be in the
majority.

I don't know - how about it? Are these two ways of looking at tools a
clean distinction, and who here falls into which category? I'll buy
a cheap tool for a one-time job, sometimes, but usually prefer to
"do it right".

Dave Hinz

In misc.rural animaux wrote:
On 26 Apr 2003 13:11:26 GMT, wrote:

I mean, 3rd replacement since December?

How much do you garden? How big are your beds and how often do you work them,
and move plants around and change things?

The veggie garden is maybe 20x30 feet, there's about, er, 6 flower beds
around the house & yard. The big work I do with a backhoe/loader, or one
of the little tractors. The rest is by hand, mostly with tools which are
older than I am.

I am constantly honing my garden with
transplanting and moving around. Making new beds. Running into major rockage.
If you are a weekend gardener, good tools may last a lifetime and not break a
lot, but I do not have that same experience.

I think we're coming at this from two different perspectives. For me,
the heavy work is done by hydraulics, so I think we're talking about
two very different situations here.

Dave Hinz

Jan Flora wrote:

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand will never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.


Absolutely! And its not just ratchets - all of their tools have a
quality feel that's unmatched by any other brand. (except for the
knuckle busters - why oh why did Snap-on stoop so low as to make a
crescent wrench???)

Many years ago I worked in a Snap-On plant - oh the sight of a tub full
of sparkling chromed wrenches....


AL

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 03:36:42 -0900, (Jan Flora) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:33:02 GMT, animaux wrote:


I love my garden now. It's really getting there.

Mine's coming along. After a very wet winter and spring, I suddenly need
rain. Nothing like a big garden to stop the rain. Maybe I should wash my
vehicles. That should do it...

Bob

Get a neighbor to start mowing his hay fields. That works around here, when
we need rain : )

Jan

Or, get a rain barrel under each downspout. Since we bought rain barrels, plant
life has been looking much better. They use chloramine in our drinking water.
I wouldn't even drink it, so plants certainly don't appreciate the high pH and
levels of chloramine. With as little as 1/4 inch of rain, our five, 75 gallon
barrels fill to the top. Our neighboring city buys them from the same supplier
as Garden Supply Catalog, and resells them at a great loss for 45 dollars. I
believe they run 140 dollars in the catalog. Maybe your city has a water
collection system in place, too.

On 28 Apr 2003 20:22:39 GMT, wrote:


That is true; some of it is branding. But, they did get a reputation
for a valid reason.

Same was true for Craftsman until their tools became rougher with lesser
quality.

Bob

AL wrote:

Jan Flora wrote:

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand will never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.

Absolutely! And its not just ratchets - all of their tools have a
quality feel that's unmatched by any other brand. (except for the
knuckle busters - why oh why did Snap-on stoop so low as to make a
crescent wrench???)

Many years ago I worked in a Snap-On plant - oh the sight of a tub full
of sparkling chromed wrenches....

AL

I worked in the auto repair biz for 20 years and would tend to
agree....BUT..the cost is also something to consider. The feel and
operation of a Snap-On combo wrench is beyond compare, but the prices
are inflated. The same story goes with hand ratchets, versus other
less-expensive brands. I have broken/worn out dozens of Craftsman
ratchets, and although they were all repaired/replaced without question,
the time wasted in returning them was not insignificant.

On the other hand, I own lots of Craftsman wrenches and have never had
to replace any of them due to defects. Granted, I will still reach for
the Snap-On first.

I have also been lured by the cheap prices of Chinese tools.....and been
burned more than once on that stuff. The quality is SO poor that it
probably would never make it past QC anywhere else. Had a vise I bought
that had been filled and sanded before painting because the casting was
so porous that no one would have bought it. Unfortunately, I found this
out after it broke. I also have a Chinese grinder that has wheel shrouds
and tool rests made out of sheet metal slightly thicker than a beer can.

Gotta stay away from eBay,

Will