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#46
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ? Sevin is a Certified Organic Pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest on grapes Or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the chemical way..Not
In article ,
Rick wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:17:33 -0700, Billy wrote: In article , Jangchub wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:32:20 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote: really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown and sure when they're at peak you have to do it every day but it still beats poison. I have a backyard vineyard of 110 vines. I will give you a glass of wine each time you come out and drown them for me :-). I know a lot of frinjdwelr wrote: There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, so I created an altered header. Sevin is a certified Organic pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest. It is easily washed from fruit. Here's a list of other certified organic pesticides. http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/HpIPMS...tle-Potato.htm Here are the application guides from New York http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...azine/carbaryl /carbaryl_2eeasia_902.html Changed the header again. http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm Poison is poison. Recognition of the web of life vs. being apart or separated. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...tool=EntrezSys tem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVD ocSum Bill -- Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA |
#47
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
In article ,
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote: Paul J. Dudley wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote: In article , Charlie wrote: Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl? It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of ground water. The same function that tea served in the East. Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is). You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that this doesn't happen again. I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start another flame war ) now do. But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't start the world whining again ). I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their reply. = Paul = Paul, since you are making wine I offer the following information. "Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health - depending on the wine makers practices. For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of the must is above 3.5, if there is extended contact with the lees, If cultured wine yeast and ML bacteria are not used then the probability of the formation of carcinogens is enhanced. Here is a post I contributed to the wine making news group: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I always look for articles indicating positive health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there are many. I recently came across an article in "Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy with the heading of "Human health concerns associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98). The partial information I summarize below is NOT an attempt to start religious wars over technique or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that we as wine makers/growers should know. Personally, I believe there are "probably" more health related issues in a can of soda than some of the material discussed below but perhaps we can make better wine if we are aware of some of these facts. Summary and quotes: "From a winemaking perspective, there are two types of compounds produced by wine microbes that have health implications for the consumer: biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.**Biogenic amines have been shown to cause negative physiological effects in allergic humans (such as headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl carbamate is considered to be a probably carcinogen to humans.**The*probable*carcinogenic properties of ethyl carbamate are based on studies with experimental animals, there is not direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans." "The concentration and type of biogenic amines vary greatly in wines; however, generally red wines contain significantly more than white wines.**In*addition,*there*appears*to*be*a*direct correlation between elevated biogenic amines in wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic fermentation." Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen, it is becoming the focus of international regulation, and so its formation must be managed properly both in the vineyard and during the winemaking process." "Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea produced from wine yeast is thought to be the major precursor." Factors that affect formation "Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host of factors can influence the formation of biogenic amines including: 1)**initial*microbial*populations*present*on grapes; 2)**presence*of*precursor*amino*acids*in*grape juice; 3)**ageing*of*wine*on*wither*yeast*lees*(sur*lie ageing) or lees following malolactic fermentation; 4)**extended*grape*maceration; 5)**spontaneous*malolactic*fermentation*by indigenous lactic acid bacteria; 6)**number*of*lactic*acid*bacteria*that*are decarboxylase-positive: 7)**wine*pH; 8)**concentration*of*sulfur*dioxide*(SO2) following malolactic fermentation and during ageing; 9)**winery*sanitation*practices; 10)**yeast*strain;*and* 11)**fining*practices*(fining*white*wines*with bentonite may remove biogenic amines). Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for biogenic amine formation during the winemaking process. Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the following factors: 1)**argine*content*of*grapes; 2)**concentration*of*ethanol; 3)**nutrient*additions*to*must,*during*both alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons; 4)**yeast*straiin; 5)**spontaneous*malolactid*fermentaion*by indigenous lactic acid bacteria; 6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing); 7)**temperature*of*iwne*during*ageing*and shipment; 8)**duration*of*wine*ageing; 9)**wine*pH;*and 10)**wineery*sanitation*practices." "Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate Biogenic Amines if possible periodically monitor microbial populations on grapes to determine risk for biogenic amine producers. if possible, assess concentration of primary precursor amino acids in grapes and must. avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity. Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or malolactic lees. Try to minimize extended grape maceration. Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry. Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and Pediococcus. When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to remove the natural lactic acid bacteria. Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria. Maintan good sanitation practices during wine production. Ethyl Carbamate Avoid argine content of 1000 mg/L in juice. Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of vineyards. Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and soil. Test nitrogen status of juice. Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do not add urea. Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that are known to produce low levels of urea (Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice has a high arginine content. Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing), which can liberate amino acids and proteins. Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not have ability to produce high levels of citrulline. Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and shipment of wine. If wines are going to be aged for an extendd period of time, it is advisable to periodically monitor ethyl carbamate levels. Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and Pedioccus. Immediately following malolactic fermentation and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria. Maintain good sanitation practices during wine production." I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the resources to monitor all of the above but we can control a good amount of them. I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic to pick up a copy of the magazine.**There*are*23 references cited at the end of the article.**I did not quote the article in the entirety but tried to summarize the main points. Paul Interesting article, however I suggest you check with http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/ecintro.html and download the "Ethyl Carbamate Preventative Action Manual: English Language Version, PDF format". It is put out by U.C.Davis. I have no idea who Robert Tracy is or if he is just trying to spice up a story. S U M M A R Y Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization in the vineyard. Monitor soil nitrogen status. Monitor vine nitrogen status. Do not use winter legumes as cover crops if soil nitrogen status is already high. Be aware that nitrogen uptake varies strongly with different cultivars and especially rootstocks. Monitor juice nitrogen status. Do not add excessive nitrogen supplements. Do not add nitrogen supplements routinely. Do not add urea as nitrogen supplement. Avoid juice arginine levels greater than 1000 mg/L. When choosing among wine yeast strains, avoid those with high urea excretion characteristics. Use malo-lactic bacteria with known characteristics. Be aware that use of urease preparations cannot completely eliminate EC formation. Be aware that must fortification may aggravate the problem of urea excretion by yeast. Monitor EC levels of fortification spirit. Avoid exposure of wine to elevated temperatures during storage and transport -- Billy Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related |
#48
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ? Sevin is a Certified Organic Pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest on grapes Or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the chemical way..Not
In article
, Bill wrote: There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, so I created an altered header. Sevin is a certified Organic pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest. It is easily washed from fruit. Here's a list of other certified organic pesticides. http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/HpIPMS...tle-Potato.htm Here are the application guides from New York http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...azine/carbaryl /carbaryl_2eeasia_902.html Changed the header again. Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the "correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature. An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active ingredient Carbaryl) it is classified a class 1 toxin, and in Sevin, with less active ingredient, it is a class 2 toxin; and it becomes a Class 3 toxin for some other brands which have barely any active ingredient at all. It's toxic in every case with many high-dosage problems and fewer (but still serious) low exposure risks. But whether or not the "last word" on the topic ever comes available, the main thing is that putting "organic" on a toxin doesn't mean organic gardeners would use it, no more than they'd slather aresenic on everything, which'd be perfectly "organic" to do. Sevin will kill beneficial insects, destroy the natural balance, and insure the return of harmful insects while the beneficial will be slower to recover. Carbaryl might LEGALLY be used in organic produce fields but those sort of regulations are never about the best thing for the environment -- they're about how much you can get away with in a one-species commercial crop to maximize harvests and still sell the product at the higher price as organic. Organic gardening is about achieving a healthful balance that does away with even needing toxins, such as can't seriously be achieved in a one-species crop but certainly can be achieved in a balanced multi-species garden for which nature becomes an aid and not a hindrance. The ACTUAL organic method of treating Japanese beetles for a specific example is to increase the entomopathogenic nematode and milky spore population in the soil, following label instructions very narrowly as the desireable microorganisms may not take hold if applied to soil willynilly under less than favorable conditions. These require very specific season and weather conditions to take hold, but once they do, the nematodes will take care of the grubs of a great many harmful species, and the milkly spoor will be a permanent fix that gets the Japanese beetle grubs specifically (it effects no other species at all). Japanese beetles will never recur, as they will when using pesticides like carbaryl which merely start the endless cycle of pesticide dependence. The beneficial microorganism route is unbeatable, but it's not instant, and in the meantime, while waiting two years for milky spore to take care of Japanese beetles completely, the subsidiary organic methods begin with hand-removal when the insects are active on plants (they're great to feed a pet lizard or pixi frog or laying hens or ciclids such as an oscar). Planting something they love to distraction, like a Rose of Sharon or a dwarf crabapple in a very warm/sunny spot, centralizes the beetle-plucking. Further assistance can be from the parastic wasps Tiphia vernalis or T. popilliavora which get the beetle eggs, available from a number of companies and which some neighborhoods join forces to obtain for an entire block. Traps can also be placed about for the adult beetles, which some field studies show take care of as many as three-fourths of the adult beetles in June and August, and work best at garden peripheries away from plants as they effectively draw the beetles out of the garden (whereas placed IN the garden the traps may draw adults from your neighbor's yard and a third or a fourth of those will get side-tracked by cool plants; also there'll be so many beetles in the traps that they'll stink of decomposing insects). In the main, the microorganism route, with some hand-plucking until it takes hold, is all a garden demands to stay fully organic. And the best part is that works way better than carbaryl or any other toxin one might otherwise select. -paghat the ratgirl http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm Poison is poison. Recognition of the web of life vs. being apart or separated. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...tool=EntrezSys tem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVD ocSum Bill -- visit my temperate gardening website: http://www.paghat.com visit my film reviews website: http://www.weirdwildrealm.com |
#49
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ? Sevin isa Certified Organic Pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest ongrapes Or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the chemical way..Not
On Jul 23, 5:55 pm, (paghat) wrote:
In article , Bill wrote: Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the "correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature. An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active MASSIVE SNIPS OK, just so we are clear on this...I am NOT an organic gardener, I use chemical ferts all the time, but I do not use Sevin or any of its derivatives or any any other herbicide or pesticide on my garden or lawn. Yeah I have crabgrass and other damn things I cannot name- but when I give my daughter a cherry tomato, I know it's not been dosed with some damn crap. Chris |
#50
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
Billy wrote:
In article , "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote: Paul J. Dudley wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote: In article , Charlie wrote: Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl? It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of ground water. The same function that tea served in the East. Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is). You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that this doesn't happen again. I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start another flame war ) now do. But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't start the world whining again ). I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their reply. = Paul = Paul, since you are making wine I offer the following information. "Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health - depending on the wine makers practices. For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of the must is above 3.5, if there is extended contact with the lees, If cultured wine yeast and ML bacteria are not used then the probability of the formation of carcinogens is enhanced. Here is a post I contributed to the wine making news group: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I always look for articles indicating positive health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there are many. I recently came across an article in "Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy with the heading of "Human health concerns associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98). The partial information I summarize below is NOT an attempt to start religious wars over technique or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that we as wine makers/growers should know. Personally, I believe there are "probably" more health related issues in a can of soda than some of the material discussed below but perhaps we can make better wine if we are aware of some of these facts. Summary and quotes: "From a winemaking perspective, there are two types of compounds produced by wine microbes that have health implications for the consumer: biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.**Biogenic amines have been shown to cause negative physiological effects in allergic humans (such as headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl carbamate is considered to be a probably carcinogen to humans.**The*probable carcinogenic properties of ethyl carbamate are based on studies with experimental animals, there is not direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans." "The concentration and type of biogenic amines vary greatly in wines; however, generally red wines contain significantly more than white wines.**In*addition,*there*appears*to*be*a direct correlation between elevated biogenic amines in wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic fermentation." Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen, it is becoming the focus of international regulation, and so its formation must be managed properly both in the vineyard and during the winemaking process." "Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea produced from wine yeast is thought to be the major precursor." Factors that affect formation "Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host of factors can influence the formation of biogenic amines including: 1)**initial*microbial*populations*present*on grapes; 2)**presence*of*precursor*amino*acids*in*grape juice; 3)**ageing*of*wine*on*wither*yeast*lees*(sur lie ageing) or lees following malolactic fermentation; 4)**extended*grape*maceration; 5)**spontaneous*malolactic*fermentation*by indigenous lactic acid bacteria; 6)**number*of*lactic*acid*bacteria*that*are decarboxylase-positive: 7)**wine*pH; 8)**concentration*of*sulfur*dioxide*(SO2) following malolactic fermentation and during ageing; 9)**winery*sanitation*practices; 10)**yeast*strain;*and 11)**fining*practices*(fining*white*wines*with bentonite may remove biogenic amines). Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for biogenic amine formation during the winemaking process. Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the following factors: 1)**argine*content*of*grapes; 2)**concentration*of*ethanol; 3)**nutrient*additions*to*must,*during*both alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons; 4)**yeast*straiin; 5)**spontaneous*malolactid*fermentaion*by indigenous lactic acid bacteria; 6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing); 7)**temperature*of*iwne*during*ageing*and shipment; 8)**duration*of*wine*ageing; 9)**wine*pH;*and 10)**wineery*sanitation*practices." "Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate Biogenic Amines if possible periodically monitor microbial populations on grapes to determine risk for biogenic amine producers. if possible, assess concentration of primary precursor amino acids in grapes and must. avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity. Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or malolactic lees. Try to minimize extended grape maceration. Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry. Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and Pediococcus. When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to remove the natural lactic acid bacteria. Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria. Maintan good sanitation practices during wine production. Ethyl Carbamate Avoid argine content of 1000 mg/L in juice. Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of vineyards. Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and soil. Test nitrogen status of juice. Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do not add urea. Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that are known to produce low levels of urea (Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice has a high arginine content. Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing), which can liberate amino acids and proteins. Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not have ability to produce high levels of citrulline. Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and shipment of wine. If wines are going to be aged for an extendd period of time, it is advisable to periodically monitor ethyl carbamate levels. Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and Pedioccus. Immediately following malolactic fermentation and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria. Maintain good sanitation practices during wine production." I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the resources to monitor all of the above but we can control a good amount of them. I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic to pick up a copy of the magazine.**There are*23 references cited at the end of the article.**I did not quote the article in the entirety but tried to summarize the main points. Paul Interesting article, however I suggest you check with http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/ecintro.html and download the "Ethyl Carbamate Preventative Action Manual: English Language Version, PDF format". It is put out by U.C.Davis. I have no idea who Robert Tracy is or if he is just trying to spice up a story. S U M M A R Y Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization in the vineyard. Monitor soil nitrogen status. Monitor vine nitrogen status. Do not use winter legumes as cover crops if soil nitrogen status is already high. Be aware that nitrogen uptake varies strongly with different cultivars and especially rootstocks. Monitor juice nitrogen status. Do not add excessive nitrogen supplements. Do not add nitrogen supplements routinely. Do not add urea as nitrogen supplement. Avoid juice arginine levels greater than 1000 mg/L. When choosing among wine yeast strains, avoid those with high urea excretion characteristics. Use malo-lactic bacteria with known characteristics. Be aware that use of urease preparations cannot completely eliminate EC formation. Be aware that must fortification may aggravate the problem of urea excretion by yeast. Monitor EC levels of fortification spirit. Avoid exposure of wine to elevated temperatures during storage and transport All of the above true but does not detract or counter what I have posted. |
#51
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
In article ,
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote: All of the above true but does not detract or counter what I have posted. No it doesn't ;o) -- Billy Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related |
#52
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ? Sevin is a Certified Organic Pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest on grapes Or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the chemical way..Not
In article
, Chris wrote: On Jul 23, 5:55 pm, (paghat) wrote: In article , Bill wrote: Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the "correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature. An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active MASSIVE SNIPS OK, just so we are clear on this...I am NOT an organic gardener, I use chemical ferts all the time, but I do not use Sevin or any of its derivatives or any any other herbicide or pesticide on my garden or lawn. Yeah I have crabgrass and other damn things I cannot name- but when I give my daughter a cherry tomato, I know it's not been dosed with some damn crap. Chris Good for you, that is the first step but pesticides come from the same petroleum base as the chem ferts. Your cherry tomatoes are more nutritious without the pesticides and healthier without their residues. Additionally, the easily accessible nitrogen from chem ferts is quickly transported and concentrated in the leaves of your crops, which and makes them desirable to insects. The quality of your crops will be similar to what you would get from hydroponics. The next step is to grow your soil to grow your plants. Chem ferts are salts and damage the food chains (webs, whatever) in the soil. There is a symbiotic relationship between the flora and fauna in the garden soil and the plants that you cultivate which makes for more nutritious and healthier plants. If you already see a half dozen worms in a shovel full of soil, your garden is in good shape and you can keep it that way with alfalfa mulches, green manures (plants), and cover crops. -- Billy Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related |
#53
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote in message news Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters. As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked" in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so. Paul, don't waste your time with Sevin dust. I recently learned it's been used so much and for so long the bugs have immunity to it. I believe it because it did nothing to help control whitefly and spider mites. Water spraying just increases your water bill because to knock off insect eggs etc. the force needed would seriously damage the leaves and the adults are back on the plants before you can turn the water off. This is the first year we don't have Japanese Beetles, probably because the whitefly and mites took over the gardens. |
#54
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
"frinjdwelr" wrote in message ... Japanese beetles are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown and sure when they're at peak you have to do it every day but it still beats poison. This is utter bullcrap. When tried, they quickly fly away only to come back in 10 to 15 minutes and pick up where they left off. If one or two end up in the bowl of water you're lucky. And try that when there are hundreds of plants involved. |
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:39:10 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote: "frinjdwelr" wrote in message ... Japanese beetles are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown and sure when they're at peak you have to do it every day but it still beats poison. This is utter bullcrap. When tried, they quickly fly away only to come back in 10 to 15 minutes and pick up where they left off. If one or two end up in the bowl of water you're lucky. And try that when there are hundreds of plants involved. Really? I've used a mason jar or mayo jar with 1/2" of water in the bottom and a drop or two of dishwashing liquid. Maybe one out of 20 will fly away, but most will drop into the soapy water. I can easily catch 100 beetles in less than 15 minutes. Milky spore is a complete waste of money. |
#56
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley wrote:
Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters. As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked" in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so. TIA Paul OK .. I said I would put this post to rest due to so much controversy but I also told someone I would post any reply from the makers of Sevin-5, so here 'tis: Mr. Dudley, Thanks for your question. Sevin is not systemic. Once Sevin has been applied, it remains effective on plants up to 7 days or until rain or overhead watering. The white material you see is the residue, which contains no active ingredients or chemicals. Water breaks the carbaryl down immediately. You might try to use a produce wash that can be found in most grocery stores. This may help remove some of the residue. Hope this helps! Have a nice day, J------ R------ * ( name withheld ) Consumer Product Representative PO Box 24830 Lexington, KY 40524 1-800-969-7200 Go ahead and flame it apart.... = Paul = |
#57
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
In article , "Paul J.
Dudley" wrote: OK .. I said I would put this post to rest due to so much controversy but I also told someone I would post any reply from the makers of Sevin-5, so here 'tis: Mr. Dudley, Thanks for your question. Sevin is not systemic. Once Sevin has been applied, it remains effective on plants up to 7 days or until rain or overhead watering. The white material you see is the residue, which contains no active ingredients or chemicals. Water breaks the carbaryl down immediately. You might try to use a produce wash that can be found in most grocery stores. This may help remove some of the residue. Hope this helps! Have a nice day, J------ R------ * ( name withheld ) Consumer Product Representative PO Box 24830 Lexington, KY 40524 1-800-969-7200 Wow. I always expect companies to dissimilate but that stuff's just outright lying. ALKALINE water quickly breaks down carbaryl. In my region where water is naturally soft, carbaryl can linger in water for a very long time, according to the EPA's draft report titled "Carbaryl Health Advisory." In neither case is it water that breaks it down, but bacteria in the water shortens the carbaryl halflife. Strange the don't stick to the best-case scenario possibility, as this outright lying reveals they can't be trusted. Because fact is, water does not affect the half-life of carbaryl, neither immediately nor over time. It has little to nothign to do with the halflife of carbaryl, and your Consumer Product Representative has just kicked you in the nuts as a dope who'll believe any old crap, either not caring enough to even know a truthful answer, or deciding lying to you is best for their company. Carbaryl remains at the application site with a half-life of 7 days to 28 days dependant on soil conditions, acidity, alkalinity, and temperature. At low temperture in low-pH conditions its half-life can extend to 4 months. In wet conditions with lots of the right bacteria, the half-life can contract to 24 hours. Carbyral "loss" is primarily through uptake into plants, where it remains, and secondarily from bacteria in soil (or in ground water). It is regarded as largely non-toxic in crop plants because the human body excretes or urinates three-thirds of it pretty much unchanged and the metabolized remnant is well under anything that could ever be immediately toxic (long term is another matter), though it can cause nitrosocarbaryl to form in the stomach, with mutagenic risks the vendors will say is not caused by carbaryl -- which is true though they leave out the fact that carbaryl is the cause of the nitrosocarbaryl (source: Sieberg & Eisenbrand in Mutat. Research 22; Elespuru et al in Nature 247; etc). Carbaryl is not water soluable (it is soluable in ethanol or petroleum ether); it is stable in heat and light. It appears on plants as a white or grey powdery solid (crystaline under a microscope). If you can see it as a white residue, it is ACTIVE in accordance with its average 7 to 28 day halflife (longer in cold, low-pH, or low-bacteria conditions), and much of what ceases to be detectable on the plant will then be taken into the plant for ingestion by animals or people, to be transformed into "a potent mutagen" in the stomach. Carbaryl is not believed to be carcinogenic. However, when it comes in contact with nitrite it gives rise to N-nitrosocarbaryl, highly mutagenic at low levels of exposure, but carcinogenic only at high levels of exposure. Nitrite is a common substance found in gardens, in human saliva, as a food additive, so essentially any product with carbaryl in it must be regarded as an INEVITABLE precursor to a toxic mutagenic. Carbaryl per se has been shown in animal studies to have a harmful effect on chromosomes and cell division (mitosis), and to damage kidneys and lungs, but not so far shown to occur in humans. But a vendor will NEVER say the simplest factual thing: Carbaryl has not yet proven to be the direct cause of harmful or taxic affects at low exposures in people, apart from giving rise to potent mutagens if injested. If you don't want to eat carbaryl, the only way around it is to never put in harvestable plants. If you don't want animals to eat it, you won't put it on anything at all. It's best case scenario is that it'll have an immediate deadly effect on all honey bees and pollinators and crop yields will fall dramatically. -paghat the ratgirl -- visit my temperate gardening website: http://www.paghat.com visit my film reviews website: http://www.weirdwildrealm.com |
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