Hi all

I'm about to plant a cherry tree and apparently they hate heavy soil..
I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale at
the nursery I'm going to.

I'm planting it in a raised bed, so I can make the soil be as good as
the tree needs it to be, but eventually the roots will need to go into
the soil beneath the bed.. And probably won't, if it's mostly clay..


What are some suggestions?

Can I dig a hole and fill it with compost and rotted manure and
potash, or is it too late?
By the time the roots get to it, it might have aided to condition the
soil around, right?

Please advise!

On Aug 14, 10:48*am, Ivan wrote:
Hi all

I'm about to plant a cherry tree and apparently they hate heavy soil..
I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale at
the nursery I'm going to.

I'm planting it in a raised bed, so I can make the soil be as good as
the tree needs it to be, but eventually the roots will need to go into
the soil beneath the bed.. And probably won't, if it's mostly clay..

What are some suggestions?

Can I dig a hole and fill it with compost and rotted manure and
potash, or is it too late?
By the time the roots get to it, it might have aided to condition the
soil around, right?

Please advise!

uumm

Gypsum, that is.

On Aug 14, 11:25*am, Jangchub wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:48:03 -0700 (PDT), Ivan
wrote:





Hi all

I'm about to plant a cherry tree and apparently they hate heavy soil..
I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale at
the nursery I'm going to.

I'm planting it in a raised bed, so I can make the soil be as good as
the tree needs it to be, but eventually the roots will need to go into
the soil beneath the bed.. And probably won't, if it's mostly clay..

What are some suggestions?

Can I dig a hole and fill it with compost and rotted manure and
potash, or is it too late?
By the time the roots get to it, it might have aided to condition the
soil around, right?

Please advise!

Okay, so you first say you are about to plant a cherry tree and they
hate heavy soil and you have heavy soil. *My advice is not to plant a
cherry tree because no matter what you do, it will fail in several
years and you'll be back to having a bare spot with no tree and have
wasted time trying to grow something in improper conditions.

You can amend the soil till the cows come *home. *If you dig a hole
and amend that soil, you will definitely be killing a tree slowly.
Once the roots hit that wall it will start to fail. *A raised bed is
not for trees, it's for perennials, vegetables and for those who
insist on growing acid loving shrubs in alkaline soil.

Cercis canadensis or C. Texinensis (if you are in zone 7 or higher)
will do much better. *Your cherry will not live long enough to provide
fruit and it may not even flower. *- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So basically the soil will never be able to be improved?
Nothing breaks clay soil?

If I were to replace the soil with better-draining soil, how deep
would I have to go?

It's not a very big courtyard, so I'm thinking that perhaps the whole
idea of digging a hole and amending the soil is really not that bad. .
The tree will, eventually, hit a wall, whether it be concrete or clay
soil ..

If you would like advise based on tree biology email me at
and I will help you the best I can.

Other than that here are some common problems that would help you and what
ever you plant.

--
Many tree problems are associated with the following: They are Case
Sensitive.

Unhealthy Trees from the Nursery / Improper Planting
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20..._planting.html

Improper Mulching -
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/M/mulch.html

Improper Pruning
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/tree_pruning

Improper Fertilization (See A Touch of Chemistry)
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/CHEM.html

Tree Farming and Related Problems
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/

Troubles in the Rhizosphere
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/RHIZO.html

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"Ivan" wrote in message
...
Hi all

I'm about to plant a cherry tree and apparently they hate heavy soil..
I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale at
the nursery I'm going to.

I'm planting it in a raised bed, so I can make the soil be as good as
the tree needs it to be, but eventually the roots will need to go into
the soil beneath the bed.. And probably won't, if it's mostly clay..


What are some suggestions?

Can I dig a hole and fill it with compost and rotted manure and
potash, or is it too late?
By the time the roots get to it, it might have aided to condition the
soil around, right?

Please advise!

On Aug 14, 12:16*pm, "symplastless" wrote:
If you would like advise based on tree biology email me at
*and I will help you the best I can.

Other than that here are some common problems that would help you and what
ever you plant.

--
Many tree problems are associated with the following: They are Case
Sensitive.

Unhealthy Trees from the Nursery / Improper Plantinghttp://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/T/tree_planting.html

Improper Mulching -http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/M/mulch.html

Improper Pruninghttp://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/tree_pruning

Improper Fertilization (See A Touch of Chemistry)http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/CHEM.html

Tree Farming and Related Problemshttp://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/

Troubles in the Rhizospherehttp://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/RHIZO.html

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologistwww.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"Ivan" wrote in message

...



Hi all

I'm about to plant a cherry tree and apparently they hate heavy soil..
I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale at
the nursery I'm going to.

I'm planting it in a raised bed, so I can make the soil be as good as
the tree needs it to be, but eventually the roots will need to go into
the soil beneath the bed.. And probably won't, if it's mostly clay..

What are some suggestions?

Can I dig a hole and fill it with compost and rotted manure and
potash, or is it too late?
By the time the roots get to it, it might have aided to condition the
soil around, right?

Please advise!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Haha.. Thanks.
You've already done this though.

On Aug 14, 12:02*pm, Jangchub wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:49:24 -0700 (PDT), Ivan
wrote:

So basically the soil will never be able to be improved?
Nothing breaks clay soil?

If I were to replace the soil with better-draining soil, how deep
would I have to go?

It's not a very big courtyard, so I'm thinking that perhaps the whole
idea of digging a hole and amending the soil is really not that bad. .
The tree will, eventually, hit a wall, whether it be concrete or clay
soil ..

You can improve the soil, but *keeping improved takes some work. *You
will need to provide an area equal to that of the diameter of the
canopy of the tree. *The end of the canopy is called the drip line. If
you amend a hole which goes down about four feed and out to the drip
line you may have some success. *Keep in mind clay soil is very
nutrient rich with elements. *You can improve soil texture by using a
back hoe or a Bobcat. *You would have to blend into the soil at least
five yards of compost, fungal specifically. *Fungal compost is made
using vegetation. *Bacterial compost is made using manures from
animals mixed with vegetation. *They provide two very different types
of organism. *Both are necessary, but for trees a fungal mat is
necessary.

If after you add the compost, and then about a yard or so of
decomposed granite, or lavasand, or coarse builders sand and mix it
all together to a depth of four feet, all the way out to the eventual
drip line of the tree...you may have success. *

Courtyard implies shade. *How much sun will your cherry tree get in
the courtyard? *

I will tag this discussion, not to be rude, but to point out how
people ask a question or for advice, they get it and still do what
they want anyway. *Try it. *You'll *know in three to five years if
your work was worth it or not.

Not saying I'll go out and do whatever I want anyway .. I'm trying to
understand why the soil can't be fixed and come to terms with the fact
I won't be able to have the tree we want ..
It's a small-ish patch of soil in a courtyard.. I should have
explained better: the soil part is small, but the courtyard is rather
large, only concreted, so it gets decent amounts of sun....

The soil is what bothers me the most ..

In article ,
Jangchub wrote:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:41:52 -0700 (PDT), Ivan
wrote:

Not saying I'll go out and do whatever I want anyway .. I'm trying to
understand why the soil can't be fixed and come to terms with the fact
I won't be able to have the tree we want ..
It's a small-ish patch of soil in a courtyard.. I should have
explained better: the soil part is small, but the courtyard is rather
large, only concreted, so it gets decent amounts of sun....

The soil is what bothers me the most ..

Tree roots need what is called gas exchange and that comes from the
soil surface. Trees in courtyards covered in concrete are not healthy
and usually stay relatively small. I would advise you to do a google
search on native trees to your region and specifically agricultural
zone. Take into consideration how much rain you get, will that small
hole get any of the rain through the concrete, certainly no air will
exchange in the top horizon of soil under concrete.

I'm not wilfully trying to discuourage you, I love trees and have as
many as my property will accomodate. I would love an apple tree. That
is not going to happen where I live in Texas. I want red maple, not
happening.

So the very best suggestion I can make with amplified verve is that
you seek out what species are native and go from there.

OP: "I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale
at the nursery I'm going to."
------

Let's see. It's half past August now, how many nurseries in your
area are having bare root sales Jang?
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

"Ivan" wrote in message
...
Hi all

I'm about to plant a cherry tree and apparently they hate heavy soil..
I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale at
the nursery I'm going to.

I'm planting it in a raised bed, so I can make the soil be as good as
the tree needs it to be, but eventually the roots will need to go into
the soil beneath the bed.. And probably won't, if it's mostly clay..


What are some suggestions?

Can I dig a hole and fill it with compost and rotted manure and
potash, or is it too late?

No! The hole will become a pit filled with water and the roots in it will rot.

By the time the roots get to it, it might have aided to condition the
soil around, right?

Please advise!

Planting on a mound is good. Planting in a hole is bad.

David

Ivan wrote:

I'm about to plant a cherry tree and apparently they hate heavy soil..
I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale at
the nursery I'm going to.

I'm planting it in a raised bed, so I can make the soil be as good as
the tree needs it to be, but eventually the roots will need to go into
the soil beneath the bed..

Please advise!

Don't plant trees in a raised bed unless it's a really HUGE raised
bed, because tree roots do not grow downward nearly as far as they
grow outward. In the typical sized raised bed a cherry tree will
become root bound, will not receive adequate water, it's roots will
frost damage depending on your location, it will become stressed and
die... of course this will take about ten years, just when you think
your tree is in its prime.

Plant your tree directly in the ground, you really only need to amend
the soil in the planting hole, once established trees tolerate heavy
soils very well.

On Aug 13, 9:25�pm, Jangchub wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:48:03 -0700 (PDT), Ivan
wrote:





Hi all

I'm about to plant a cherry tree and apparently they hate heavy soil..
I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale at
the nursery I'm going to.

I'm planting it in a raised bed, so I can make the soil be as good as
the tree needs it to be, but eventually the roots will need to go into
the soil beneath the bed.. And probably won't, if it's mostly clay..

What are some suggestions?

Can I dig a hole and fill it with compost and rotted manure and
potash, or is it too late?
By the time the roots get to it, it might have aided to condition the
soil around, right?

Please advise!

Okay, so you first say you are about to plant a cherry tree and they
hate heavy soil and you have heavy soil. �My advice is not to plant a
cherry tree because no matter what you do, it will fail in several
years and you'll be back to having a bare spot with no tree and have
wasted time trying to grow something in improper conditions.

You can amend the soil till the cows come �home.

Actually cows are very good at amending soil.

On Aug 14, 3:55*pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,





*Jangchub wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:41:52 -0700 (PDT), Ivan
wrote:

Not saying I'll go out and do whatever I want anyway .. I'm trying to
understand why the soil can't be fixed and come to terms with the fact
I won't be able to have the tree we want ..
It's a small-ish patch of soil in a courtyard.. I should have
explained better: the soil part is small, but the courtyard is rather
large, only concreted, so it gets decent amounts of sun....

The soil is what bothers me the most ..

Tree roots need what is called gas exchange and that comes from the
soil surface. *Trees in courtyards covered in concrete are not healthy
and usually stay relatively small. *I would advise you to do a google
search on native trees to your region and specifically agricultural
zone. * Take into consideration how much rain you get, will that small
hole get any of the rain through the concrete, certainly no air will
exchange in the top horizon of soil under concrete. *

I'm not wilfully trying to discuourage you, I love trees and have as
many as my property will accomodate. *I would love an apple tree. That
is not going to happen where I live in Texas. *I want red maple, not
happening. *

So the very best suggestion I can make with amplified verve is that
you seek out what species are native and go from there.

OP: "I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale
at the nursery I'm going to."
------

Let's see. It's half past August now, how many nurseries in your
area are having bare root sales Jang?
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Barshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.nethttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



All of them, really.
They begin having bare root sales in around June and go on until the
end of August, when they pot the trees they have left over and sell
them for twice as much money.
We're not all in America.

On Aug 15, 6:00*am, Sheldon wrote:
Ivan wrote:

I'm about to plant a cherry tree and apparently they hate heavy soil..
I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale at
the nursery I'm going to.

I'm planting it in a raised bed, so I can make the soil be as good as
the tree needs it to be, but eventually the roots will need to go into
the soil beneath the bed..

Please advise!

Don't plant trees in a raised bed unless it's a really HUGE raised
bed, because tree roots do not grow downward nearly as far as they
grow outward. *In the typical sized raised bed a cherry tree will
become root bound, will not receive adequate water, it's roots will
frost damage depending on your location, it will become stressed and
die... of course this will take about ten years, just when you think
your tree is in its prime.

Plant your tree directly in the ground, you really only need to amend
the soil in the planting hole, once established trees tolerate heavy
soils very well.



Well that's what I thouht would happen .. After doing some reading I
decided I might give this a go.. (The planting on the hole, and hoping
the tree will get used to the heavy soil once it establishes .....
We'll see how it goes.
I'm not planning on living here for another 20 years anyway. :P

"Billy" wrote in message
...

Let's see. It's half past August now, how many nurseries in your
area are having bare root sales Jang?
--

Snips!

I live in zone 6 and anything bare root this time of year is DEAD.

On Aug 13, 8:57*pm, Ivan wrote:
On Aug 14, 10:48*am, Ivan wrote:





Hi all

I'm about to plant a cherry tree and apparently they hate heavy soil..
I will buy the tree this weekend as they're having a bare-root sale at
the nursery I'm going to.

I'm planting it in a raised bed, so I can make the soil be as good as
the tree needs it to be, but eventually the roots will need to go into
the soil beneath the bed.. And probably won't, if it's mostly clay..

What are some suggestions?

Can I dig a hole and fill it with compost and rotted manure and
potash, or is it too late?
By the time the roots get to it, it might have aided to condition the
soil around, right?

Please advise!

uumm

Gypsum, that is.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

gypsum may or may not work, btw. some clays, replacing the sodium with
calcium via gypsum works to break it up, some it doesn't. i can't
remember the details, but it's something you could probably find on
the web, which is where i probably found it.

i found out that about a foot down under my yard is an impermeable
wall of red clay with a lot of the original red rocks still embedded
in it. come spring, or lately when it's raining every day, the place
is a swamp. the yard has a few pretty large maples and other trees in
it, though. i'm not planting anything that doesn't have "dwarf" in the
name, however. dwarf willows seem to be happy with the situation, also
local native swamp azaleas. the upside is i don't have to water the
lawn much.