Hi everyone.

I've joined the forum in the hope that I can become a bit more green fingered. At the moment I tend to shove something in the ground and walk away knowing it's got two chances, but if I can get my head around what should be where and when I might be able to get our garden looking something like decent.

One of the biggest problems I need to overcome right now is weed control. We moved into our house nearly a year ago and inherited a good sized but terribly neglected garden (30 years). The top 1/3 of the garden, approx 50'x35’ is totally covered in Docks and nettles but I'd really rather it be lawned. Last summer I got my hands on some weedkiller and sprayed the lot, within a week they all seemed dead but a few weeks later they were back with a vengeance so I sprayed them again, and the same happened. Obviously they died down over winter but now they’re back in all their glory.

Now, this is becoming a real bug bare and I don’t feel like I can move on until I’ve figure out how to kill them. The area is way too big to dig them out and they must be so deep routed I’m worried that weed killer isn’t going to get rid either. My worry is that they are consuming the lawn, they have moved down by around 4 feet in a year and I need to nip them in the bud asap.

Can anyone offer some useful advice? Any suggestions welcome but I really don’t see digging them up as an option this time.

All the best,
Matt

On 03/04/09 20:40, keelematt wrote:
Hi everyone.

I've joined the forum in the hope that I can become a bit more green
fingered. At the moment I tend to shove something in the ground and
walk away knowing it's got two chances, but if I can get my head around
what should be where and when I might be able to get our garden looking
something like decent.

One of the biggest problems I need to overcome right now is weed
control. We moved into our house nearly a year ago and inherited a
good sized but terribly neglected garden (30 years). The top 1/3 of
the garden, approx 50'x35’ is totally covered in Docks and nettles but
I'd really rather it be lawned. Last summer I got my hands on some
weedkiller and sprayed the lot, within a week they all seemed dead but
a few weeks later they were back with a vengeance so I sprayed them
again, and the same happened. Obviously they died down over winter but
now they’re back in all their glory.

Now, this is becoming a real bug bare and I don’t feel like I can move
on until I’ve figure out how to kill them. The area is way too big to
dig them out and they must be so deep routed I’m worried that weed
killer isn’t going to get rid either. My worry is that they are
consuming the lawn, they have moved down by around 4 feet in a year and
I need to nip them in the bud asap.

Can anyone offer some useful advice? Any suggestions welcome but I
really don’t see digging them up as an option this time.

All the best,
Matt




What weed killer have you been using? What is the principal active
ingredient?

Ed

On Apr 3, 1:29*pm, Ed ex@directory wrote:
On 03/04/09 20:40, keelematt wrote:

Hi everyone.

I've joined the forum in the hope that I can become a bit more green
fingered. *At the moment I tend to shove something in the ground and
walk away knowing it's got two chances, but if I can get my head around
what should be where and when I might be able to get our garden looking
something like decent.

One of the biggest problems I need to overcome right now is weed
control. *We moved into our house nearly a year ago and inherited a
good sized but terribly neglected garden (30 years). *The top 1/3 of
the garden, approx 50'x35’ is totally covered in Docks and nettles but
I'd really rather it be lawned. *Last summer I got my hands on some
weedkiller and sprayed the lot, within a week they all seemed dead but
a few weeks later they were back with a vengeance so I sprayed them
again, and the same happened. *Obviously they died down over winter but
now they’re back in all their glory.

Now, this is becoming a real bug bare and I don’t feel like I can move
on until I’ve figure out how to kill them. *The area is way too big to
dig them out and they must be so deep routed I’m worried that weed
killer isn’t going to get rid either. *My worry is that they are
consuming the lawn, they have moved down by around 4 feet in a year and
I need to nip them in the bud asap.

Can anyone offer some useful advice? *Any suggestions welcome but I
really don’t see digging them up as an option this time.

All the best,
Matt

What weed killer have you been using? What is the principal active
ingredient?

Ed

If I could put in my .02...The weeds may have learned to love the
weedkiller, just like insects learn to love the bug spray one is
using.

If you can afford it, have a pro come in and deal with the weeds once
for all.

If not, you might want to try the plastic method, often used on empty
lots which have become dog toilets (to kill dangerous worms from the
doggie doo-doo).

Cover the area with sturdy clear plastic and wait for the sun to kill
the weeds. Takes a while, but is not toxic to the soil.

Good luck!

In article ,
keelematt wrote:

Hi everyone.

I've joined the forum in the hope that I can become a bit more green
fingered. At the moment I tend to shove something in the ground and
walk away knowing it's got two chances, but if I can get my head around
what should be where and when I might be able to get our garden looking
something like decent.

One of the biggest problems I need to overcome right now is weed
control. We moved into our house nearly a year ago and inherited a
good sized but terribly neglected garden (30 years). The top 1/3 of
the garden, approx 50'x35’ is totally covered in Docks and nettles but
I'd really rather it be lawned. Last summer I got my hands on some
weedkiller and sprayed the lot, within a week they all seemed dead but
a few weeks later they were back with a vengeance so I sprayed them
again, and the same happened. Obviously they died down over winter but
now they’re back in all their glory.

Now, this is becoming a real bug bare and I don’t feel like I can move
on until I’ve figure out how to kill them. The area is way too big to
dig them out and they must be so deep routed I’m worried that weed
killer isn’t going to get rid either. My worry is that they are
consuming the lawn, they have moved down by around 4 feet in a year and
I need to nip them in the bud asap.

Can anyone offer some useful advice? Any suggestions welcome but I
really don’t see digging them up as an option this time.

All the best,
Matt

Truly, dumber than dirt. Do yourself and the world a favor and get rid
of your toxic waste. Lay dow cardboard or newspaper over the weeds. Yes,
it will look like a gawd awful mess, which is why you then put mulch on
it (preferably alfalfa). Wait until mulch breaks down some (maybe 2 - 6
months), and plant what you want. If it is something vain and stupid
like a lawn, just toss the seed on the mulch and water them in. Your
neighbors will thank you and the soil will thank you.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is
now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of
conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 20:40:14 +0100, keelematt
wrote:


Hi everyone.

I've joined the forum in the hope that I can become a bit more green
fingered. At the moment I tend to shove something in the ground and
walk away knowing it's got two chances, but if I can get my head around
what should be where and when I might be able to get our garden looking
something like decent.

One of the biggest problems I need to overcome right now is weed
control. We moved into our house nearly a year ago and inherited a
good sized but terribly neglected garden (30 years). The top 1/3 of
the garden, approx 50'x35’ is totally covered in Docks and nettles but
I'd really rather it be lawned. Last summer I got my hands on some
weedkiller and sprayed the lot, within a week they all seemed dead but
a few weeks later they were back with a vengeance so I sprayed them
again, and the same happened. Obviously they died down over winter but
now they’re back in all their glory.

Now, this is becoming a real bug bare and I don’t feel like I can move
on until I’ve figure out how to kill them. The area is way too big to
dig them out and they must be so deep routed I’m worried that weed
killer isn’t going to get rid either. My worry is that they are
consuming the lawn, they have moved down by around 4 feet in a year and
I need to nip them in the bud asap.

Can anyone offer some useful advice? Any suggestions welcome but I
really don’t see digging them up as an option this time.

All the best,
Matt


As a newbie, you may be better off hiring a lawn service for a year
and observe and learn what they do. Spot spraying is better than
covering the entire lawn, it can be harsh on grass if used too
much/too often. You may get by with hand pulling weeds--you are lucky
in this manner to have a small lawn. When weeds are under control
consider overseeding at the time which is best in your climate. Shop
for the best quality seed you can find. Good luck.

Damned lazy??? Quit being such a damned ignorant, egotistical ar5e! I'm one of the hardest working individuals anybody could ever meet and lazy is the last word that could be used to describe me! Uneducated? I think not. An inexperienced gardener yes, which is why I came along and asked the question. I work 60 hours a week and my spare time is spent rebuilding our home and trying to get round to enjoying time with our kids. I’d love to have the time to dig out what must be getting on for 200 square feet of 30-50 year old docks, but I don’t.

It sounds to me like you need to get a grip on your campaign and re-think your approach to spreading the word. Maybe if people like YOU offered a more friendly introduction to green living, people like ME might be more inclined to listened to what you've got to say - should I act in the same childish manner as yours and purchase 20 gallons of round-up to see how that goes on with the weeds? Not today.

Grow up and get a life Charlie, and while you’re at it you might want to learn how to express yourself and your opinions more appropriately. Oh, I think you meant to say “our planet” not “my planet”.

On Apr 3, 12:40*pm, keelematt
wrote:
Hi everyone.

I've joined the forum in the hope that I can become a bit more green
fingered. *At the moment I tend to shove something in the ground and
walk away knowing it's got two chances, but if I can get my head around
what should be where and when I might be able to get our garden looking
something like decent.

One of the biggest problems I need to overcome right now is weed
control. *We moved into our house nearly a year ago and inherited a
good sized but terribly neglected garden (30 years). *The top 1/3 of
the garden, approx 50'x35’ is totally covered in Docks and nettles but
I'd really rather it be lawned. *Last summer I got my hands on some
weedkiller and sprayed the lot, within a week they all seemed dead but
a few weeks later they were back with a vengeance so I sprayed them
again, and the same happened. *Obviously they died down over winter but
now they’re back in all their glory.

Now, this is becoming a real bug bare and I don’t feel like I can move
on until I’ve figure out how to kill them. *The area is way too big to
dig them out and they must be so deep routed I’m worried that weed
killer isn’t going to get rid either. *My worry is that they are
consuming the lawn, they have moved down by around 4 feet in a year and
I need to nip them in the bud asap.

Can anyone offer some useful advice? *Any suggestions welcome but I
really don’t see digging them up as an option this time.

All the best,
Matt

--
keelematt

I'm not at all sure why rudeness in responding to your question seems
to be called for. But it takes all kinds, some quite a bit less
helpful and less knowledgeable than others :-)

There's a couple of ways you can approach this. Smothering the area is
effective but will take some time. Layer on newspaper (completely
biodegradable) rather thickly and wet it down. Top off with an organic
mulch - wood chips, ground bark, compost, composted manure, etc. This
will weight down the paper and add to the soil texture as it
decomposes and eventually gets turned into the soil. If you start this
now, the area should be free of weeds and ready to till and plant by
early fall.

You can also go with the herbicide approach if you wish. It is fast
and efficient but may take several applications. Plants generally need
to be in active growth for most herbicides to be effective.
Horticultural vinegar is a 'natural' choice but has its own drawbacks.
Glyphosate (RoundUp) is commonly used for this purpose and works as
well but with less of a long term environmental impact. It breaks down
in the soil quite rapidly and is far less of a pollutant than most
commercial fertilizers are. Both are broad spectrum herbicides,
meaning they can damage anything they are sprayed on. Follow label
directions explicitly and avoid using if any kind of breeze.

Another, perhaps less efficient method, is to till the area. You will
still likely get some weeds generating but they should be easier to
remove. If you want to grass this area, I'd go with of the other
methods first.

btw, covering the area with clear plastic will work, but I'd not
recommend it. This is called solarization and while it will kill off
the weeds (and anything else growing under it) it also kills off
beneficial soil organisms, leaving the soil essentially sterile. This
is highly undesirable and takes a lot of work to bring the soil back
into a healthy condition.

In article
,
gardengal wrote:

You can also go with the herbicide approach if you wish. It is fast
and efficient but may take several applications. Plants generally need
to be in active growth for most herbicides to be effective.
Horticultural vinegar is a 'natural' choice but has its own drawbacks.
Glyphosate (RoundUp) is commonly used for this purpose and works as
well but with less of a long term environmental impact. It breaks down
in the soil quite rapidly and is far less of a pollutant than most
commercial fertilizers are.

This is what is known as "damning with faint praise".

If you have any consideration for the planet, you will refrain from
using chemical fertilizers as they kill microorganisms in the soil and
reduce top soil, thus making the user more dependent on them, in ever
increasing quantities to maintain the same level of crop production,
until the system crashes from lack of topsoil.

Both are broad spectrum herbicides,
meaning they can damage anything they are sprayed on. Follow label
directions explicitly and avoid using if any kind of breeze.

http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/7728/7728.html

Our studies show that glyphosate acts as a disruptor of mammalian
cytochrome P450 aromatase activity from concentrations 100 times lower
than the recommended use in agriculture; this is noticeable on human
placental cells after only 18 hr, and it can also affect aromatase gene
expression. It also partially disrupts the ubiquitous reductase activity
but at higher concentrations. Its effects are allowed and amplified by
at least 0.02% of the adjuvants present in Roundup, known to facilitate
cell penetration, and this should be carefully taken into account in
pesticide evaluation. The dilution of glyphosate in Roundup formulation
may multiply its endocrine effect. Roundup may be thus considered as a
potential endocrine disruptor. Moreover, at higher doses still below the
classical agricultural dilutions, its toxicity on placental cells could
induce some reproduction problems.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is
now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of
conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

Billy, do you live your entire life being a total prick or are you just a part time keyboard hero? I moderated a number of forums for many years and I must admit that it's rare to come across anybody as obnoxious or eager for a flame war as you! It's usually immature teenagers that are trying to wind people up at the drop of a hat. What was it you called me? Dumber than dirt wasn't it, you really have no idea how far off the truth you are, jackass.

You mentioned in your first post that I was here looking for a poison solution - you're absolutely full of crud, I asked for suggested methods of killing the Docks not poisoning them, I had been considering using a paraffin burner or coving them rather than using chemicals and wondered if it might have been suggested here, it seems like you're just to eager waiting to start jumping up and down on your soap box before looking any further than your blurred, narrow minded outlook on the human race.

Well Mr Smartarse, answer me this - What the hell is so vain and stupid about a lawn?
My children would be lost without the lawn to play on. We do have woods as well as more wild areas on our ground for them to explore but they still love to kick a ball about the place and ride their toy tractors around. You really are a complete tosser. Would you rather I concreted the lot and saved myself a life times worth of work? Are we not being encouraged to keep lawned areas by your fellow eco warriors?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links on here but on the off chance here's one for you ;-)


I'll take another look at the help comments tomorrow and see if we can figure out a solution. Shame I've lowered my self to Billy's level and wasted 20 minutes of my life writing this post!

In article ,
keelematt wrote:

Billy, do you live your entire life being a total prick or are you just
a part time keyboard hero? I moderated a number of forums for many
years and I must admit that it's rare to come across anybody as
obnoxious or eager for a flame war as you! It's usually immature
teenagers that are trying to wind people up at the drop of a hat. What
was it you called me? Dumber than dirt wasn't it, you really have no
idea how far off the truth you are, jackass.

You mentioned in your first post that I was here looking for a poison
solution - you're absolutely full of crud, I asked for suggested
methods of killing the Docks not poisoning them, I had been considering
using a paraffin burner or coving them rather than using chemicals and
wondered if it might have been suggested here, it seems like you're
just to eager waiting to start jumping up and down on your soap box
before looking any further than your blurred, narrow minded outlook on
the human race.

Well Mr Smartarse, answer me this - What the hell is so vain and stupid
about a lawn?
My children would be lost without the lawn to play on. We do have
woods as well as more wild areas on our ground for them to explore but
they still love to kick a ball about the place and ride their toy
tractors around. You really are a complete tosser. Would you rather I
concreted the lot and saved myself a life times worth of work? Are we
not being encouraged to keep lawned areas by your fellow eco warriors?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links on here but on the off chance
'here's' (http://tinyurl.com/yjm842) one for you ;-)


I'll take another look at the help comments tomorrow and see if we can
figure out a solution. Shame I've lowered my self to Billy's level and
wasted 20 minutes of my life writing this post!

You are quit right, I will apologize to the dirt in the morning. I'm
sorry to be the first one in line to get in your face about your
proposed project, but I certainly won't be the last, if you continue to
follow this ill fated trajectory.

Stupidity starts with chemical solutions (figuratively and literally).
You obviously haven't the faintest idea about the world's crisis of
diminishing biodiversity and the destruction of the top soil that
humanity counts on for survival.

Since lawns and chemicals seem to go together like cheese and pickles
for you, the herbicides will undoubtedly soon be joined by the other
evil doers. No, not George Bush and Dick Cheney, but pesticides and
chemical fertilizers. As I understand it, once you have this trio
of biocides perfectly confected, you plan to loose small children on it
to play. My god, it's brilliant, if you want to play chemical Russian
roulette with the neighborhood children (who are the most vulnerable to
these poisons) and who ever is down stream from egomaniacal effluent.
You know that children playing on your expensive, high maintenance,
green trophy are just going to tear it up. Then you'll be yelling at the
kids to stay off your beautiful lawn, as you try to keep up appearances
for the Lord Love-a-Ducks who live up the lane from you.

A number of posters have already told you what organic options you have.
What? Don't believe in that organic gardening rubbish? We could have
used you 90 years ago, when the U.K. stopped accepting our apples just
because of a little lead arsenate on them. Well, OK, it was a lot of
lead arsenate, but still, underneath the poison, they were beautiful
apples.

I'm not going to hold your hand and go through the different methods
that were presented to you in good faith, mine included. Suffice it to
say, if it doesn't entail using some witches brew, it's probably worth a
go.

You mentioned in your first post that "last summer I got my hands on some
weedkiller and sprayed the lot, within a week they all seemed dead but
a few weeks later they were back with a vengeance so I sprayed them
again, and the same happened". Reading through the balance of your post,
you neglect to mention that you experienced an epiphany in regards to
biocides.

Oh, what is a "Good Samaritan" to do, when you hold back important
insights? So, don't give me a lot of crud for thinking you were in a
similar state of mind. "Third time proves it all", is the way it goes,
eh?

It's a bit depressing to think that you are so devoid of wit that the
only options you see are a work intensive, poisonous sump of a lawn or
concrete slab. With any effort, you should be able to find a nursery
nearby, who will give you good organic advice on ground covers, or
flower gardens with mulched paths where your children can play. I doubt,
however, that you'll get better advice, than what you have been so
charitably offered here.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

On Apr 4, 6:09*pm, keelematt
wrote:
Billy, do you live your entire life being a total prick or are you just
a part time keyboard hero? *I moderated a number of forums for many
years and I must admit that it's rare to come across anybody as
obnoxious or eager for a flame war as you! *It's usually immature
teenagers that are trying to wind people up at the drop of a hat. *What
was it you called me? *Dumber than dirt wasn't it, you really have no
idea how far off the truth you are, jackass.

You mentioned in your first post that I was here looking for a poison
solution - you're absolutely full of crud, I asked for suggested
methods of killing the Docks not poisoning them, I had been considering
using a paraffin burner or coving them rather than using chemicals and
wondered if it might have been suggested here, it seems like you're
just to eager waiting to start jumping up and down on your soap box
before looking any further than your blurred, narrow minded outlook on
the human race.

Well Mr Smartarse, answer me this - What the hell is so vain and stupid
about a lawn?
My children would be lost without the lawn to play on. *We do have
woods as well as more wild areas on our ground for them to explore but
they still love to kick a ball about the place and ride their toy
tractors around. *You really are a complete tosser. *Would you rather I
concreted the lot and saved myself a life times worth of work? *Are we
not being encouraged to keep lawned areas by your fellow eco warriors?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links on here but on the off chance
'here's' (http://tinyurl.com/yjm842) one for you ;-)

I'll take another look at the help comments tomorrow and see if we can
figure out a solution. *Shame I've lowered my self to Billy's level and
wasted 20 minutes of my life writing this post!

--
keelematt

Sometimes it's just not worth it to respond :-)

I am an organic gardener myself, meaning I avoid chemical pesticides
and fertilizers whenever possible - I tend to avoid even organic pest
controls as well, as many times they are just as harmful (if not more
so) to the you and environment as those synthesized in a lab. But the
organic Nazis, such as Billy appears to be, are detrimental to the
cause as are any type of ideologues and tend to put people off the
program rather than encouraging them. There are pros and cons to every
approach and chemical methods are not inheritantly bad and organic
ones inheritantly good. Chemical controls have reduced many disease
and insect problems over the years that would have otherwise
devastated farming and cropping and we wouldn't have fed a 10th of the
population we managed to provide for since WWII had not chemical
fertilizers been invented. It's simply a matter of educating one's
self and others on the drawbacks of either approach and to remember to
use moderation in everything. Including how one presents their
personal point of view or gardening philosophy.

There is nothing wrong with having and maintaining a lawn if that is
your desire and it is quite possible to have a thick and lush lawn
WITHOUT the use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. It just takes
some research into the techniques and materials and a bit of work
initially.

Torching the weeds is a very viable approach. And it too produces very
fast, efficient results. I'd consider it a definite option.

In article
,
gardengal wrote:

On Apr 4, 6:09*pm, keelematt
wrote:
Billy, do you live your entire life being a total prick or are you just
a part time keyboard hero? *I moderated a number of forums for many
years and I must admit that it's rare to come across anybody as
obnoxious or eager for a flame war as you! *It's usually immature
teenagers that are trying to wind people up at the drop of a hat. *What
was it you called me? *Dumber than dirt wasn't it, you really have no
idea how far off the truth you are, jackass.

You mentioned in your first post that I was here looking for a poison
solution - you're absolutely full of crud, I asked for suggested
methods of killing the Docks not poisoning them, I had been considering
using a paraffin burner or coving them rather than using chemicals and
wondered if it might have been suggested here, it seems like you're
just to eager waiting to start jumping up and down on your soap box
before looking any further than your blurred, narrow minded outlook on
the human race.

Well Mr Smartarse, answer me this - What the hell is so vain and stupid
about a lawn?
My children would be lost without the lawn to play on. *We do have
woods as well as more wild areas on our ground for them to explore but
they still love to kick a ball about the place and ride their toy
tractors around. *You really are a complete tosser. *Would you rather I
concreted the lot and saved myself a life times worth of work? *Are we
not being encouraged to keep lawned areas by your fellow eco warriors?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links on here but on the off chance
'here's' (http://tinyurl.com/yjm842) one for you ;-)

I'll take another look at the help comments tomorrow and see if we can
figure out a solution. *Shame I've lowered my self to Billy's level and
wasted 20 minutes of my life writing this post!

--
keelematt

Sometimes it's just not worth it to respond :-)

I am an organic gardener myself, meaning I avoid chemical pesticides
and fertilizers whenever possible - I tend to avoid even organic pest
controls as well, as many times they are just as harmful (if not more
so) to the you and environment as those synthesized in a lab. But the
organic Nazis, such as Billy appears to be, are detrimental to the
cause as are any type of ideologues and tend to put people off the
program rather than encouraging them. There are pros and cons to every
approach and chemical methods are not inheritantly bad and organic
ones inheritantly good. Chemical controls have reduced many disease
and insect problems over the years that would have otherwise
devastated farming and cropping and we wouldn't have fed a 10th of the
population we managed to provide for since WWII had not chemical
fertilizers been invented. It's simply a matter of educating one's
self and others on the drawbacks of either approach and to remember to
use moderation in everything. Including how one presents their
personal point of view or gardening philosophy.

There is nothing wrong with having and maintaining a lawn if that is
your desire and it is quite possible to have a thick and lush lawn
WITHOUT the use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. It just takes
some research into the techniques and materials and a bit of work
initially.

Torching the weeds is a very viable approach. And it too produces very
fast, efficient results. I'd consider it a definite option.

You never did announce the basis of your authority on gardening matters.
Since you eschew information from books, I can only assume that you are
a research scientist who has spent her time recreating the wheel.

Poor me. I must learn a priori from second hand accounts. But wait a
minute. That's what your offering isn't it, a second hand account?
Bit of a conundrum, if you get my drift.

For some reason, the phrase "American pest" keeps coming to my mind.

Oh right, American Pests: The Losing War on Insects from Colonial Times
to DDT by James E. McWilliams.
http://www.amazon.com/American-Pests...l/dp/023113942
X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238953305&sr=1-1

Integrated pest management was the main thrust of economic entomologists
until the beginning of the 20th Century. Then it quickly turned to
simple solutions for simple minds, and we got lead arsenate apples, DDT,
Monsanto, pesticide residues, and endocrine disrupters. Besides the
physical effort that "keelematt" will need to invest in his lawn
(especially if it is organic), if he goes the Monsanto route, he will
get to be a guinea pig on the cutting edge predatory commercialism.

Do yourself a favor, "gardenfraud", learn about what you are advising
before you open your big mouth.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

On Apr 5, 11:08*am, Billy wrote:
In article
,





*gardengal wrote:
On Apr 4, 6:09*pm, keelematt
wrote:
Billy, do you live your entire life being a total prick or are you just
a part time keyboard hero? *I moderated a number of forums for many
years and I must admit that it's rare to come across anybody as
obnoxious or eager for a flame war as you! *It's usually immature
teenagers that are trying to wind people up at the drop of a hat. *What
was it you called me? *Dumber than dirt wasn't it, you really have no
idea how far off the truth you are, jackass.

You mentioned in your first post that I was here looking for a poison
solution - you're absolutely full of crud, I asked for suggested
methods of killing the Docks not poisoning them, I had been considering
using a paraffin burner or coving them rather than using chemicals and
wondered if it might have been suggested here, it seems like you're
just to eager waiting to start jumping up and down on your soap box
before looking any further than your blurred, narrow minded outlook on
the human race.

Well Mr Smartarse, answer me this - What the hell is so vain and stupid
about a lawn?
My children would be lost without the lawn to play on. *We do have
woods as well as more wild areas on our ground for them to explore but
they still love to kick a ball about the place and ride their toy
tractors around. *You really are a complete tosser. *Would you rather I
concreted the lot and saved myself a life times worth of work? *Are we
not being encouraged to keep lawned areas by your fellow eco warriors?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links on here but on the off chance
'here's' (http://tinyurl.com/yjm842) one for you ;-)

I'll take another look at the help comments tomorrow and see if we can
figure out a solution. *Shame I've lowered my self to Billy's level and
wasted 20 minutes of my life writing this post!

--
keelematt

Sometimes it's just not worth it to respond :-)

I am an organic gardener myself, meaning I avoid chemical pesticides
and fertilizers whenever possible - I tend to avoid even organic pest
controls as well, as many times they are just as harmful (if not more
so) to the you and environment as those synthesized in a lab. But the
organic Nazis, such as Billy appears to be, are detrimental to the
cause as are any type of ideologues and tend to put people off the
program rather than encouraging them. There are pros and cons to every
approach and chemical methods are not inheritantly bad and organic
ones inheritantly good. Chemical controls have reduced many disease
and insect problems over the years that would have otherwise
devastated farming and cropping and we wouldn't have fed a 10th of the
population we managed to provide for since WWII had not chemical
fertilizers been invented. It's simply a matter of educating one's
self and others on the drawbacks of either approach and to remember to
use moderation in everything. Including how one presents their
personal point of view or gardening philosophy.

There is nothing wrong with having and maintaining a lawn if that is
your desire and it is quite possible to have a thick and lush lawn
WITHOUT the use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. It just takes
some research into the techniques and materials and a bit of work
initially.

Torching the weeds is a very viable approach. And it too produces very
fast, efficient results. I'd consider it a definite option.

You never did announce the basis of your authority on gardening matters.
Since you eschew information from books, I can only assume that you are
a research scientist who has spent her time recreating the wheel.

Poor me. I must learn a priori from second hand accounts. But wait a
minute. That's what your offering isn't it, a second hand account?
Bit of a conundrum, if you get my drift.

For some reason, the phrase "American pest" keeps coming to my mind.

Oh right, American Pests: The Losing War on Insects from Colonial Times
to DDT by James E. McWilliams.http://www.amazon.com/American-Pests...onial/dp/02311...
X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238953305&sr=1-1

Integrated pest management was the main thrust of economic entomologists
until the beginning of the 20th Century. Then it quickly turned to
simple solutions for simple minds, and we got lead arsenate apples, DDT,
Monsanto, pesticide residues, and endocrine disrupters. Besides the
physical effort that "keelematt" will need to invest in his lawn
(especially if it is organic), if he goes the Monsanto route, he will
get to be a guinea pig on the cutting edge predatory commercialism.

Do yourself a favor, "gardenfraud", learn about what you are advising
before you open your big mouth.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." *- Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

gee, what more is there to say? I guess you've got me pegged, you
simpleminded little cretin. Matt pretty much has it nailed in his
assessment of you.....your words speak for themselves and they're not
saying a heck of a lot. Do YOURSELF a favor and try a different
approach - your message, if there is a valid one in all that rhetoric
and diatribe, is lost in all the rest of the garbage you spout.

btw, what in hell are YOUR credentials.........if you have any? And
where do you get off slamming anyone else for their opinions? From
what kind of authority do you speak? Oh, I know........it's the World
According to Billy. Silly me for not realizing that.

Sheesh.

In article
,
gardengal wrote:

On Apr 5, 11:08*am, Billy wrote:
In article
,





*gardengal wrote:
On Apr 4, 6:09*pm, keelematt
wrote:
Billy, do you live your entire life being a total prick or are you just
a part time keyboard hero? *I moderated a number of forums for many
years and I must admit that it's rare to come across anybody as
obnoxious or eager for a flame war as you! *It's usually immature
teenagers that are trying to wind people up at the drop of a hat. *What
was it you called me? *Dumber than dirt wasn't it, you really have no
idea how far off the truth you are, jackass.

You mentioned in your first post that I was here looking for a poison
solution - you're absolutely full of crud, I asked for suggested
methods of killing the Docks not poisoning them, I had been considering
using a paraffin burner or coving them rather than using chemicals and
wondered if it might have been suggested here, it seems like you're
just to eager waiting to start jumping up and down on your soap box
before looking any further than your blurred, narrow minded outlook on
the human race.

Well Mr Smartarse, answer me this - What the hell is so vain and stupid
about a lawn?
My children would be lost without the lawn to play on. *We do have
woods as well as more wild areas on our ground for them to explore but
they still love to kick a ball about the place and ride their toy
tractors around. *You really are a complete tosser. *Would you rather I
concreted the lot and saved myself a life times worth of work? *Are we
not being encouraged to keep lawned areas by your fellow eco warriors?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links on here but on the off chance
'here's' (http://tinyurl.com/yjm842) one for you ;-)

I'll take another look at the help comments tomorrow and see if we can
figure out a solution. *Shame I've lowered my self to Billy's level and
wasted 20 minutes of my life writing this post!

--
keelematt

Sometimes it's just not worth it to respond :-)

I am an organic gardener myself, meaning I avoid chemical pesticides
and fertilizers whenever possible - I tend to avoid even organic pest
controls as well, as many times they are just as harmful (if not more
so) to the you and environment as those synthesized in a lab. But the
organic Nazis, such as Billy appears to be, are detrimental to the
cause as are any type of ideologues and tend to put people off the
program rather than encouraging them. There are pros and cons to every
approach and chemical methods are not inheritantly bad and organic
ones inheritantly good. Chemical controls have reduced many disease
and insect problems over the years that would have otherwise
devastated farming and cropping and we wouldn't have fed a 10th of the
population we managed to provide for since WWII had not chemical
fertilizers been invented. It's simply a matter of educating one's
self and others on the drawbacks of either approach and to remember to
use moderation in everything. Including how one presents their
personal point of view or gardening philosophy.

There is nothing wrong with having and maintaining a lawn if that is
your desire and it is quite possible to have a thick and lush lawn
WITHOUT the use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. It just takes
some research into the techniques and materials and a bit of work
initially.

Torching the weeds is a very viable approach. And it too produces very
fast, efficient results. I'd consider it a definite option.

You never did announce the basis of your authority on gardening matters.
Since you eschew information from books, I can only assume that you are
a research scientist who has spent her time recreating the wheel.

Poor me. I must learn a priori from second hand accounts. But wait a
minute. That's what your offering isn't it, a second hand account?
Bit of a conundrum, if you get my drift.

For some reason, the phrase "American pest" keeps coming to my mind.

Oh right, American Pests: The Losing War on Insects from Colonial Times
to DDT by James E.
McWilliams.http://www.amazon.com/American-Pests...-Colonial/dp/0
2311...
X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238953305&sr=1-1

Integrated pest management was the main thrust of economic entomologists
until the beginning of the 20th Century. Then it quickly turned to
simple solutions for simple minds, and we got lead arsenate apples, DDT,
Monsanto, pesticide residues, and endocrine disrupters. Besides the
physical effort that "keelematt" will need to invest in his lawn
(especially if it is organic), if he goes the Monsanto route, he will
get to be a guinea pig on the cutting edge predatory commercialism.

Do yourself a favor, "gardenfraud", learn about what you are advising
before you open your big mouth.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." *- Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

gee, what more is there to say? I guess you've got me pegged, you
simpleminded little cretin. Matt pretty much has it nailed in his
assessment of you.....your words speak for themselves and they're not
saying a heck of a lot. Do YOURSELF a favor and try a different
approach - your message, if there is a valid one in all that rhetoric
and diatribe, is lost in all the rest of the garbage you spout.

btw, what in hell are YOUR credentials.........if you have any? And
where do you get off slamming anyone else for their opinions? From
what kind of authority do you speak? Oh, I know........it's the World
According to Billy. Silly me for not realizing that.

Sheesh.

Just a simple gardener mam, just a simple gardener.
But when it comes to bad information, or my lyin' eyes,
I'll take my lyin' eyes any day, especially since I ran them over the
pages of

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

"How to Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0

"Vegetable Gardener' Bible" by Edward C. Smith.
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Gard...Gardening/dp/1
580172121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815454&sr=1-1

The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1

In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto
by Michael Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Food-E...114964/ref=sr_
1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238974366&sr=1-1

Stolen Harvest: The Hijacking of the Global Food Supply
by Vandana Shiva
http://www.amazon.com/Stolen-Harvest...y/dp/089608607
0/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238974474&sr=1-10

What to Eat
by Marion Nestle
http://www.amazon.com/What-Eat-Mario...ref=sr_1_1?ie=
UTF8&s=books&qid=1238974909&sr=1-1

American Pests: The Losing War on Insects from Colonial Times to DDT
by James E. McWilliams
http://www.amazon.com/American-Pests...l/dp/023113942
X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238975011&sr=1-1

General Viticulture
by A. J. Winkler, James A. Cook, W. M. Kliewer, Lloyd A. Lider
http://www.amazon.com/General-Viticu...025911/ref=sr_
1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238975081&sr=1-1

The Fatal Harvest Reader by Andrew Kimbrell
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_...stripbooks&fie
ld-keywords=fatal+harvest+reader&sprefix=Fatal+Ha

(Not a book) The Worst Mistake In The History Of The Human Race
http://www.environnement.ens.fr/pers..._jared_diamond
..pdf
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

Charlie, you go boy. Seeing the post through your eyes, I'm outraged all
over again.

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sun, 5 Apr 2009 09:40:15 -0700 (PDT), gardengal
wrote:

Sometimes it's just not worth it to respond :-)

Then don't, instead of leading people astray.
Put simply, poison bad.
Unless, you KNOW that there is no down side, consider all chemicals
poison. Chemical that isn't poison? There's water, sulfur, charcoal,
lime, and stuff like that.
Your ambiguous, mealy-mouthed reply lacks any
conviction.....lukewarm, it is.....patooie! Take a stand. Population
control may not be pleasant, but nature is effective.

The chemical solution is going to result in population control also,
but with more severe results, from which we likely will have a much
harder time recovering. Oh wait.....'tweenst that and several other
big events on the horizon....life is becoming very difficult. "Organic
gardening" may be a practice that preserves some folks.

But hey, whaddo I know, my edumcation list is even shorter than my
willy, so, I'll just jab at all you bigwillys from my assigned place
at the bottom. 'Bout all the good it seems to do anywhoo.


I am an organic gardener myself, meaning I avoid chemical pesticides
and fertilizers whenever possible -

Nope. That is not the definition and principle of "organic
agriculture". Give the OP the full story. You seem to be more intent
upon castigating Billy and presentations than helping the OP.
Man, I totally missed that. Next thing she'll be sayin',"I'm a pacifist,
except for when I'm killing people". I expect we'll soon be hearing the
praise of 10-10-10.

Poseur.

I tend to avoid even organic pest
controls as well, as many times they are just as harmful (if not more
so) to the you and environment as those synthesized in a lab. But the
organic Nazis,
Mein Gott, she ist on to us. We have to get some "Blackwater" disguises.
You noticed that she is leaving room between herself and organics. I
wonder if she follows the reduced bioflavonoids and chemical residues up
the food chain.

Of course here we were talking keelematt in the UK, where it doesn't
rain all the time, sometimes it's foggy ;O) There the run-off is
assured. He obviously doesn't know or care about dead zones in the sea
caused by chemfert run-off and the poisoning of the local water supply
that will affect children the most, or the impact of pesticides and
herbicides on other species like frogs. Frogs be the canaries of the
waterways. When the frogs stop croakin', you can expect to be next.

sigh....anyone heard of Godwin's Law.....guess not. I are guilty
also, me guesses.

such as Billy appears to be,

sigh......why does Billy always get to be the.....never mind.

are detrimental to the
cause as are any type of ideologues and tend to put people off the
program rather than encouraging them. There are pros and cons to every
approach and chemical methods are not inheritantly bad and organic
ones inheritantly good. Chemical controls have reduced many disease
and insect problems over the years that would have otherwise
devastated farming and cropping and we wouldn't have fed a 10th of the
population we managed to provide for since WWII had not chemical
fertilizers been invented.
You know, Charlie there have been many book written on this subject as
well as the previous one. To be expected to give the lie to it in a
newsgroup post is overwhelming. But be assured dear readers, they are
lies.

And this is a good thing....why?

BTW......you've neglected one of the basic tenets of "organic"
gardening. Know what it is?

It's simply a matter of educating one's
self and others on the drawbacks of either approach and to remember to
use moderation in everything. Including how one presents their
personal point of view or gardening philosophy.

Hmmmm.......careful now, the OP takes offense at any hint of lack of
education.

There is nothing wrong with having and maintaining a lawn if that is
your desire and it is quite possible to have a thick and lush lawn
WITHOUT the use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. It just takes
some research into the techniques and materials and a bit of work
initially.

Torching the weeds is a very viable approach. And it too produces very
fast, efficient results. I'd consider it a definite option.

Torching dangerous ideas and practices is viable and efficient also.
Just another option to try and help people remove their heads from
their arses.

Charlie
Gotta' run. My squirrel is outside demanding his snack.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html