In April of this year, I noticed some grape vines in the bargain bin
at the grocery store. Just out of curiosity, I looked at them, and
found one which had two buds which were closed but firm (neither dried
out nor rotting), so I gambled $1.95 on it.

The variety is Niagara. It was from one of those mass-market
nurseries.

I washed off the 'soil' it came in and let it sit in water overnight.
Next day, the buds had opened, and I planted it in the worst possible
place, a corner which gets no sun and the soil is building rubble in
clay.

My only thought was to have "something" in that corner. I figured if
it ever grew to 5 feet tall, it'd get some light (narrow porch has
windows on both sides). And if it didn't grow, well, it was only 2
bucks.

It sat for about a week, doing nothing, and I thought I'd wasted my
effort digging a hole for it.

Then it took off.

By July 1st, it was up to the windows.

I'd run strings from the sill down to the ground for it to climb, so I
put a trellis over the window for its further growth.

Now, each stem goes 5 feet up to the window, 2 feet horizontally
across, a foot up, 2 feet across, a foot up, and they're beginning
their third pass across.

From what I've read about growing/training grapes, you're to trim it
back at planting to only one stem and then hope it reaches a 36-inch
high wire the first year.

This has two stems, each about 12 feet long, with no sign of slowing
down!

I didn't have a distinct plan in place because I didn't expect it to
survive, and I've just been puttering, pinching off side shoots as I
tie it to the trellis to train it to go back and forth across the
window.

I know I'll never get grapes off it (besides lack of light and lousy
soil, the squirrels pass over it on their way to the feeder). I only
want something reasonably attractive.

I'm almost afraid to prune off the tips because if it sends out side
shoots, the way it's growing, it'll probably engulf the house!

I've looked at more than a hundred sites, and I haven't found a thing
about how to train grapes to a trellis purely for decoration, and
there's nothing, anywhere, about one which is growing like Little
Audrey!

At this point, I don't even know what I don't know, so I'm not sure
what to ask!

One thing I do need to know -- is it safe to just keep weaving it back
and forth across the trellis, or will that leave me with nothing but
bare trunks next year?

Any help appreciated!

On 8/8/13 2:38 AM, Jymesion wrote:
In April of this year, I noticed some grape vines in the bargain bin
at the grocery store. Just out of curiosity, I looked at them, and
found one which had two buds which were closed but firm (neither dried
out nor rotting), so I gambled $1.95 on it.

The variety is Niagara. It was from one of those mass-market
nurseries.

I washed off the 'soil' it came in and let it sit in water overnight.
Next day, the buds had opened, and I planted it in the worst possible
place, a corner which gets no sun and the soil is building rubble in
clay.

My only thought was to have "something" in that corner. I figured if
it ever grew to 5 feet tall, it'd get some light (narrow porch has
windows on both sides). And if it didn't grow, well, it was only 2
bucks.

It sat for about a week, doing nothing, and I thought I'd wasted my
effort digging a hole for it.

Then it took off.

By July 1st, it was up to the windows.

I'd run strings from the sill down to the ground for it to climb, so I
put a trellis over the window for its further growth.

Now, each stem goes 5 feet up to the window, 2 feet horizontally
across, a foot up, 2 feet across, a foot up, and they're beginning
their third pass across.

From what I've read about growing/training grapes, you're to trim it
back at planting to only one stem and then hope it reaches a 36-inch
high wire the first year.

This has two stems, each about 12 feet long, with no sign of slowing
down!

I didn't have a distinct plan in place because I didn't expect it to
survive, and I've just been puttering, pinching off side shoots as I
tie it to the trellis to train it to go back and forth across the
window.

I know I'll never get grapes off it (besides lack of light and lousy
soil, the squirrels pass over it on their way to the feeder). I only
want something reasonably attractive.

I'm almost afraid to prune off the tips because if it sends out side
shoots, the way it's growing, it'll probably engulf the house!

I've looked at more than a hundred sites, and I haven't found a thing
about how to train grapes to a trellis purely for decoration, and
there's nothing, anywhere, about one which is growing like Little
Audrey!

At this point, I don't even know what I don't know, so I'm not sure
what to ask!

One thing I do need to know -- is it safe to just keep weaving it back
and forth across the trellis, or will that leave me with nothing but
bare trunks next year?

Any help appreciated!



'Niagara' is a general-purpose grape, suitable for eating fresh, juice,
and wine. Most grapes do not really care about soil; your "worst
possible place" with building rubble and clay is likely okay.

To control the vine during growing season, keep pinching the tips of
some branches and tying the others to the trellis.

In the winter, prune severely. After selecting a very few "main"
branches, remove the weaker side branches. Trim the remaining side
branches to 1 or 2 buds.

I hope your trellis is quite strong. A grape vine with maturing fruit
can be very heavy. Instead of a trellis, I have steel-pipe fence posts
and wire rope to support my vines. See my
http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_grapes.html. Note the use of
steel rebar to anchor the ends of the wire rope.

If you really do not like where the vine is now growing, cuttings root
quite easily. Your plant most likely is a rooted cutting. I'm not
really sure as to when or how to take cuttings, but you should be able
to research that in a good garden or horticulture book, possibly in a
local library. Since 'Niagara' is an American grape (not European), it
does not need to be grafted onto root stock.

It takes 2-4 years for a newly planted cutting to give fruit. My three
vines are from cuttings done by a neighbor. This year -- about five
years after they were planted -- one vine still has not given any fruit.
The other two each gave me about 3-4 gallons of grapes.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

In article ,
Jymesion wrote:

In April of this year, I noticed some grape vines in the bargain bin
at the grocery store. Just out of curiosity, I looked at them, and
found one which had two buds which were closed but firm (neither dried
out nor rotting), so I gambled $1.95 on it.

The variety is Niagara. It was from one of those mass-market
nurseries.

I washed off the 'soil' it came in and let it sit in water overnight.
Next day, the buds had opened, and I planted it in the worst possible
place, a corner which gets no sun and the soil is building rubble in
clay.

My only thought was to have "something" in that corner. I figured if
it ever grew to 5 feet tall, it'd get some light (narrow porch has
windows on both sides). And if it didn't grow, well, it was only 2
bucks.

It sat for about a week, doing nothing, and I thought I'd wasted my
effort digging a hole for it.

Then it took off.

By July 1st, it was up to the windows.

I'd run strings from the sill down to the ground for it to climb, so I
put a trellis over the window for its further growth.

Now, each stem goes 5 feet up to the window, 2 feet horizontally
across, a foot up, 2 feet across, a foot up, and they're beginning
their third pass across.

From what I've read about growing/training grapes, you're to trim it
back at planting to only one stem and then hope it reaches a 36-inch
high wire the first year.

This has two stems, each about 12 feet long, with no sign of slowing
down!

I didn't have a distinct plan in place because I didn't expect it to
survive, and I've just been puttering, pinching off side shoots as I
tie it to the trellis to train it to go back and forth across the
window.

I know I'll never get grapes off it (besides lack of light and lousy
soil, the squirrels pass over it on their way to the feeder). I only
want something reasonably attractive.

I'm almost afraid to prune off the tips because if it sends out side
shoots, the way it's growing, it'll probably engulf the house!

I've looked at more than a hundred sites, and I haven't found a thing
about how to train grapes to a trellis purely for decoration, and
there's nothing, anywhere, about one which is growing like Little
Audrey!

At this point, I don't even know what I don't know, so I'm not sure
what to ask!

One thing I do need to know -- is it safe to just keep weaving it back
and forth across the trellis, or will that leave me with nothing but
bare trunks next year?

Any help appreciated!


No reason to worry about it now. You have to nearly next to devise a
system. Keep in mind that every new bud is a potential cane. It's not
unusual for a plant to grow tall and lanky, when looking for sunlight.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg

Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Jymesion wrote:

In April of this year, I noticed some grape vines in the bargain bin
at the grocery store. Just out of curiosity, I looked at them, and
found one which had two buds which were closed but firm (neither dried
out nor rotting), so I gambled $1.95 on it.

The variety is Niagara. It was from one of those mass-market
nurseries.

I washed off the 'soil' it came in and let it sit in water overnight.
Next day, the buds had opened, and I planted it in the worst possible
place, a corner which gets no sun and the soil is building rubble in
clay.

My only thought was to have "something" in that corner. I figured if
it ever grew to 5 feet tall, it'd get some light (narrow porch has
windows on both sides). And if it didn't grow, well, it was only 2
bucks.

It sat for about a week, doing nothing, and I thought I'd wasted my
effort digging a hole for it.

Then it took off.

By July 1st, it was up to the windows.

I'd run strings from the sill down to the ground for it to climb, so I
put a trellis over the window for its further growth.

Now, each stem goes 5 feet up to the window, 2 feet horizontally
across, a foot up, 2 feet across, a foot up, and they're beginning
their third pass across.

From what I've read about growing/training grapes, you're to trim it
back at planting to only one stem and then hope it reaches a 36-inch
high wire the first year.

This has two stems, each about 12 feet long, with no sign of slowing
down!

I didn't have a distinct plan in place because I didn't expect it to
survive, and I've just been puttering, pinching off side shoots as I
tie it to the trellis to train it to go back and forth across the
window.

I know I'll never get grapes off it (besides lack of light and lousy
soil, the squirrels pass over it on their way to the feeder). I only
want something reasonably attractive.

I'm almost afraid to prune off the tips because if it sends out side
shoots, the way it's growing, it'll probably engulf the house!

I've looked at more than a hundred sites, and I haven't found a thing
about how to train grapes to a trellis purely for decoration, and
there's nothing, anywhere, about one which is growing like Little
Audrey!

At this point, I don't even know what I don't know, so I'm not sure
what to ask!

One thing I do need to know -- is it safe to just keep weaving it back
and forth across the trellis, or will that leave me with nothing but
bare trunks next year?

Any help appreciated!

There's tons of info about growing grapes on the net, TONS.

At my last house I planted two concord grape vines as a privacy
screen, worked out very well and got lots of grapes too, produced the
2nd year... bought from Lowe's end of season sale rack.
Vines in early spring, heavily pruned the previous fall:
http://i44.tinypic.com/23robow.jpg
Just budding out... that tree is a dwarf sour cherry, very prolific:
http://i40.tinypic.com/1ooimr.jpg
When fully leafed out coverage is superb, total privacy:
http://i43.tinypic.com/2yxmz9y.jpg
Each growing season grapes must be pruned back to first tiny grape
cluster, remove approximately 30% of vine by weight (guesstimate), or
vine will use its energy to produce more vine rather than great
grapes. Proper pruning is the most important aspect of grape growing,
most folks ignore pruning and end up with a slovenly mess of leggy
vines and a few measly grapes.

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 10:18:59 -0700, Billy
wrote:
No reason to worry about it now. You have to nearly next to devise a
system. Keep in mind that every new bud is a potential cane.

So far my system has only been to wind the two stems back and forth
across the trellis. I'm not sure how that's going to work out.

It's not
unusual for a plant to grow tall and lanky, when looking for sunlight.

Slap me upside the head! I should have known that! I don't know why I
didn't recognize it. The leaf spacing is about 6" apart up to the
window sill, and it's shorter from there on, where they get a lot more
light.

And it's all lanky growth, what I've always called water growth --
thin, tall, and soft.

Thanks!

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 16:04:34 -0400, Brooklyn1
wrote:

There's tons of info about growing grapes on the net, TONS.

I've found lots. The problem is that none of it applies to my
situation, or at least, I don't see how it applies because mine has to
grow tall and narrow and my main need is for dense foliage. A crop of
grapes isn't going to happen (too little light, too many squirrels).

I particularly haven't found anything about how to handle it when it's
growing so fast.

When fully leafed out coverage is superb, total privacy:
http://i43.tinypic.com/2yxmz9y.jpg

Looks fantastic! You did a great job on it!

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 10:12:18 -0700, "David E. Ross"
wrote:

On 8/8/13 2:38 AM, Jymesion wrote:

One thing I do need to know -- is it safe to just keep weaving it back
and forth across the trellis, or will that leave me with nothing but
bare trunks next year?

To control the vine during growing season, keep pinching the tips of
some branches and tying the others to the trellis.

So I should prune off the end of the stems and let them develop
branches?

So far, I've been pinching off everything and letting only the main
stems grow.

I hope your trellis is quite strong.

I cheated! I went to Lowe's and picked out the lumber and trellis and
various bits and bobs to put it all together, then I looked at the
pile. No one thing was very expensive, but it added up to a lot, and
it was going to be a semi-major project to put it all together..

Then I saw what would be easy -- a panel of porch railing. It's
basically two 4' 2x4s with 1 1/4 x 1 1/14 posts connecting them.

I only had to drill six holes, put it up against the window frame, and
drive in lag bolts (turned on it's side, it forms a ladder, and is the
exact width so the lag bolts go through the trim and into the wall
studs on either side of the window.

The only finicky bit was a board and spindles for the squirrels to
easily get around the gutter at the top of the wall.

It takes 2-4 years for a newly planted cutting to give fruit.

I never expect to get any grapes off it. I had some grape vines
trained against a fence about 30 years ago and lost most of the crop
to squirrels. I expect that problem to be much worse when the
grapevine is on their path to the feeder.

Thanks for the info!

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 10:12:18 AM UTC-7, David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/13 2:38 AM, Jymesion wrote:

[...snippage...]

'Niagara' is a general-purpose grape, suitable for eating fresh, juice,

and wine. Most grapes do not really care about soil; your "worst

possible place" with building rubble and clay is likely okay.


"Most grapes do not really care about soil.."

David, can you hear the anguished screams from vintners of France and everywhere else where wine grapes are grown! Can you say "terroir"???

[...snippage...]

HB

Higgs Boson said:

"Most grapes do not really care about soil.."

David, can you hear the anguished screams from vintners of France and
everywhere else
where wine grapes are grown! Can you say "terroir"???

Well!

The vintners may care, but the *grapes* don't!

The wild ones are scrambling all over the neglected parts of the
neighbors' yards, despite the fact that we all live on something
approximating a fossil sand dune. Every year I have to pull down
vines. The only nice thing I can say about these vines is that,
unlike the buckthorn, ailanthus, euonymus, white mulberries,
Siberian elm, white poplar, multiflora roses, etc, etc. that seed
themselves all over the neighborhood, the grapes (and poison ivy)
are natives.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Yes, swooping is bad."

email valid but not regularly monitored

Jymesion wrote:
On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 16:04:34 -0400, Brooklyn1
wrote:

There's tons of info about growing grapes on the net, TONS.

I've found lots. The problem is that none of it applies to my
situation, or at least, I don't see how it applies because mine has to
grow tall and narrow and my main need is for dense foliage. A crop of
grapes isn't going to happen (too little light, too many squirrels).

Squirrels must be particular. I've never see signs of squirrel damage on the
interlakens in my yard.

Pinching off new branches is certainly going to promote growth of the main stem.

On 8/9/13 2:44 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Thursday, August 8, 2013 10:12:18 AM UTC-7, David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/13 2:38 AM, Jymesion wrote:

[...snippage...]

'Niagara' is a general-purpose grape, suitable for eating fresh, juice,

and wine. Most grapes do not really care about soil; your "worst

possible place" with building rubble and clay is likely okay.


"Most grapes do not really care about soil.."


David, can you hear the anguished screams from vintners of France
and
everywhere else where wine grapes are grown! Can you say "terroir"???

[...snippage...]

HB


Terroir is much more about climate than soil.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

On Fri, 9 Aug 2013 08:22:26 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

Jymesion wrote:
A crop of
grapes isn't going to happen (too little light, too many squirrels).

Squirrels must be particular. I've never see signs of squirrel damage on the
interlakens in my yard.

It may be a factor of water supply. I've seen squirrels ignore
tomatoes when there's plenty of fresh water and ravage them when
there's a drought.

In article ,
Higgs Boson wrote:

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 10:12:18 AM UTC-7, David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/13 2:38 AM, Jymesion wrote:

[...snippage...]

'Niagara' is a general-purpose grape, suitable for eating fresh, juice,

and wine. Most grapes do not really care about soil; your "worst

possible place" with building rubble and clay is likely okay.


"Most grapes do not really care about soil.."

David, can you hear the anguished screams from vintners of France and
everywhere else where wine grapes are grown! Can you say "terroir"???

[...snippage...]

HB

Wine grapes are grown on crummy soil, because nothing else will grow
there. Check out the cliffs of the Moselle that disguise themselves of
as vineyards.
http://www.pbase.com/bauer/mosel_river

Terroir is the set of special characteristics that the geography,
geology,climate and, orientation vis-a-vis the sun of a certain place,
interacting with the plant's genetics. It ain't just the dirt.

For table grapes it is good to have access to water to swell the size of
the grapes. Wine grapes must be water stressed. The more stress, this
side of raisons, the better, if you're going to be drinking it.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg

Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 13:02:43 -0500, wrote:

All the sites for grape production is one main stem/trunk. You can select 2+ main
stems sorta heading in the directions you want. Even "trunks" will break buds and
send out vines, so dont worry about next year.

Thanks for that info! It's been so long since I grew grapes that I
don't remember if they only had buds on the previous year's growth. If
the trunks bud, that solves a lot of my concerns.

Evidently you have selected a site
that may not look "good" but your grape loves it, maybe cause it gets a lot of water?

It get a lot because it's in the middle of brick paving, and
everything drains towards it. But the roots won't be sitting in water
because there's enough broken brick under it to provide decent
drainage.

"Decoration" covers a lot of territory. There is espalier, bushy, jungle, etc. Just
keep an eye out of downy mildew or other fungal disease from too little air
circulation.

All I want is a bit of green to break up the drab corner. It's right
outside my kitchen window, and looking at the porch wall isn't very
exciting.

On 8/16/13 11:02 AM, wrote:
Prune in spring for "shape". "Tip" in summer where it reaches the size you want to
stop forward growth.
All the sites for grape production is one main stem/trunk. You can select 2+ main
stems sorta heading in the directions you want. Even "trunks" will break buds and
send out vines, so dont worry about next year. Evidently you have selected a site
that may not look "good" but your grape loves it, maybe cause it gets a lot of water?
The best wine grapes in Germany grow in slate, rocky soils, slate is compacted clay.

"Decoration" covers a lot of territory. There is espalier, bushy, jungle, etc. Just
keep an eye out of downy mildew or other fungal disease from too little air
circulation.

Ingrid


Actually, grapes form on spurs or shoots from horizontal scaffold
branches. I know this to be true since I got about 3 gallons of grapes
from each of two vines this year.


--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary