On 05/29/2014 10:53 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
You are stating your opinions as if they are facts.
Words have meaning, and you don't get to define them:

Type 2 diabetes is a lifelong (chronic) disease in which there are
high levels of sugar (glucose) in the blood. Type 2 diabetes is the
most common form of diabetes.

Bull shit. The above is Shoddy Science, Sketchy Politics
and Shady Special Interests.

You really need to look at the before and after
on this link:

http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/about-me-and-diabetes/


Here is a great web site, if you want to follow up
on Diabetes from a Paleo perspective:

http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/
http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/about-me-and-diabetes/
As I said, Paleo, is another of the wacky "I know better
than people that have studied this" things that have
become so popular lately.

I am drug and allopath free since September. Not
a fad. And no one is condescending. (I am on their
cooking group. Great folks.) I LIVE A NORMAL
LIFE, without the poisonous stuff (high carbs).
If you want condescending, try a vegetarian group.


Obesity and lack of exercise are the 2 most common causes
of T2.

BULL SHIT! It is caused by carbohydrate poisoning.
Obesity is a SYMPTOM (it is caused by the start of T2,
which in insulin resistance). (That and peeing a lot.)

High carb plants are not natural in nature. Humans
hybridized them for that. And, that is what gave
us T2. It is an injury, not a disease.

I really don't want T2.
I'm not Obese

Don't let the fat bigots fool you. Skinny
folks get T2 in the same numbers too. They
just don't have the symptom of getting fat
to warn them.

and I swim 3 times a week.

The best exercise is the one that you will do.
I go fishing.

Caveman diets? No thanks.

Just exactly what do you think that is? Here is your
real food pyramid (not the one where Big Ag, Big Pharma,
Big Medicine, and ESPECIALLY BIG GOVERNMENT all wax
each others palms over):

http://www.allthingsgym.com/mark-sis...-food-pyramid/

The food is great. I have more variety and better
tasting food than I have ever had in my life! Meat,
fat, (low carb) plants. THINK STEAKS, CHICKEN,
TURKEY, MOOSE, ELK ... NOW YOU ARE MAKING ME HUNGRY!

Grok (my favorite cave man) ate whatever he could get his
hands on. He just couldn't get his hands on the
current poisonous stuff (not hybridized yet), so he
had no T2. Just like I am now free of it too.

-T

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 10:32:02 AM UTC-7, Todd wrote:
On 05/29/2014 05:46 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

I've noticed that sometimes the plants that grow from my older squash seeds

are more likely to skip the first flush of male flowers and get right to producing female flowers.

I had a year when my zukes only produced dude flowers.

Never figured out why. Very frustrating.

You never heard of gay zuke liberation??!!

HB

Todd wrote:
On 05/28/2014 05:44 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Todd wrote:

Hi Moe,

Not to ask too basic a question, but do seeds need to "breath"?
(Do they need a source of air?)


Until they start to germinate the amount of oxygen they need is
miniscule, for practical purposes zero, so they will be quite happy
in a sealed container for a long time. I imagine this is dependent
on temperature to some degree. Note that if you do want them to
germinate properly they do need air as their metabolism starts up
and they converts stored starches and oils into new plant tissue,
inhaling oxygen and exhaling CO2.

And, do you have to be careful not the "Freeze" them (water
in the seed crystallizing)?


Apparently freezing is OK. The seed vault at Svalbard is kept at
-18C (about 0 F) with seeds in sealed packets. I wouldn't be
repeatedly freezing and thawing them however, as might happen in an
outbuilding in a cold climate. For most purposes cool dry
conditions will suffice. The more important part is the dry.


D

Hi David,

Great explanation! Thank you!

I know my Hollyhock seeds need sunlight to germinate too,
so keep seeds dark too, I presume.

-T

I have never found any consistent rule about which seeds germinate best in
light or in dark.

D

On 29/05/2014 10:46 PM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:
Higgs Boson said:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:42:40 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:



And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that

I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than

fresh.

That sounds wildly counter-intuitive. Did your interlocutors say why?

I've noticed that sometimes the plants that grow from my older squash seeds
are more likely to skip the first flush of male flowers and get right to producing
female flowers. Most particularly this seems to be true of the C. pepo types
(zuchinni, summer squash, delicata, acorn).

That's interesting. I must pay more attention next time I plant older
seeds of the cucurbita family. One thing that does occur to me is that
in Australia what we call 'pumpkin', USians call 'winter squash' so
Higgs might still need to seek a definitive answer to his query.

I'm assuming that the gardeners who told me about older pumpkin seeds
found out what they were telling me based on experience just as you did
with your summer squash. One of these gardeners also told me that dog
poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say I've ever been
tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked for many
years at Government House then he should have had some knowledge and skills.

Fran Farmer wrote:
One of these gardeners also told me
that dog poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say I've
ever
been tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked
for many years at Government House then he should have had some
knowledge and skills.

Where did all these dogs come from at Government House? The explanation is
that there are few conveniences in the rather large grounds of Government
House.

Its due to gardeners' piddle.

D

On 30/05/2014 3:53 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
Todd writes:

On 05/28/2014 12:27 PM, Dan.Espen wrote:
I can't see how anyone can be "Paleo/diabetic".
The first part is the weird idea that eating like a caveman is good for
you. The second part is a disease.

Hi Dan,

Paleo keeps you from getting T2 Diabetes. It also helps
you heal from it.

Also, T2 Diabetes is not a "disease". It is an "injury"
(carbohydrate poisoning) and it is self inflicted.
I speak from experience.

You are stating your opinions as if they are facts.

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

On 30/05/2014 2:00 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:
One of these gardeners also told me
that dog poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say
I've ever
been tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked
for many years at Government House then he should have had some
knowledge and skills.

Where did all these dogs come from at Government House?

I wrote that he was a gardener at Government House. I don't know if he
ever put dog poop under the trees at Government House. He had years of
experience as a gardener both as a wage earner and as a non paid home
gardener. His home garden was wonderful. I'd always assumed that it
was his home trees that had the dog poop under them but must admit that
I didn't specifically ask at the time and he's now dead.

He also advocated the use of banana peel and the water left over in the
pot that vegetables had been cooked in as great for plants. I've
recently taken up this latter tip and it's brought back to (relatively)
lush life a poor suffering camellia and another small flowering plant at
the base of the stairs off my front deck.

Regardless of that, the lemon trees at Government House are very good
ones. Quite amazing really when you consider the climate in which they
grow.

The explanation
is that there are few conveniences in the rather large grounds of
Government House.

Not so - there are excellent dunnies in the grounds at GH.

Its due to gardeners' piddle.

Possibly that is why the lemons at GH are so good.

In article
Fran Farmer writes:

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

I can't tell if it is just the US, as my exposure is largely online.

Diet has become worse than religion for not being able to tell what
meaning someone has attached to a word. I used to hang out in a
cooking group and was very confused by several posters until I
realized when they said "carbs" they meant "sugar," and when they
said "protein" they meant "meat."

Except when they didn't.

It wasn't worth the effort after a while.

--
|Drew Lawson | Mrs. Tweedy! |
| | The chickens are revolting! |

Fran Farmer wrote:
....
Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

heh, putting it mildly... the USoA has had
agricultural fiddling with nutrition recommendations
for quite some time, so when actual science is done
it is often skewed by government funding and desires
of legislators to push their pet crops through things
like the school lunch program.

Atkins was popular many years ago. it was yet
another fad diet that has been transformed into
the Paleo diet over the past few years. not too
long ago there was also the cinnamon pill diabetic
craze, the fish oil craze, the carbo diet craze,
the low fat craze, the butter and lard craze.

i think the major improvement in basic nutrition
is best summed up as "eat real food". i.e. stay
away from overly processed foods or things that
don't look like anything real, most of what is in
the grocery store these days is packaged technofoods
that are largely made up of variations on corn, soy,
sugars and various flavorings and preservatives.

the recommendation to eat a lot of protein is
largely wrong for humans, we're omnivores, after
so many grams of protein in a diet the rest is
not needed and is very wasteful if you consider
what it takes to raise and process (aside from
plant sources). higher fiber foods are great in
general too as they provide bulk, making a person
feel actually satisfied from a meal, various
probiotic foods are good.

i stay away from too much salt, and get plenty
of exercise, that seems to be the most consistent
advice you can get from various cultural studies.


After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

i try to eat mainly what i grow and what i
cook as i pretty much like almost anything. for
the largest meal of the day (lunch) i eat enough
to get me through to dinner and a day of gardening.
i can eat about what i want now with me being
more active. for later on, i eat a large bowl of
shredded cabbage and carrots with various things
added and a sweet and sour dressing of some type.
keeps me full and mostly away from the night time
snacks.


songbird

Fran Farmer writes:

On 30/05/2014 3:53 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
Todd writes:

On 05/28/2014 12:27 PM, Dan.Espen wrote:
I can't see how anyone can be "Paleo/diabetic".
The first part is the weird idea that eating like a caveman is good for
you. The second part is a disease.

Hi Dan,

Paleo keeps you from getting T2 Diabetes. It also helps
you heal from it.

Also, T2 Diabetes is not a "disease". It is an "injury"
(carbohydrate poisoning) and it is self inflicted.
I speak from experience.

You are stating your opinions as if they are facts.

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's
like 'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

Hey, if only it was confined to carbs.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes
to what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

Just about any nutty thing people can come up with gets a free pass.
The magic in pyramids, the healing power of magnets, anti-vaccine,
every bizarre belief gets a load of adherents.

--
Dan Espen

Todd wrote:
On 05/29/2014 10:54 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 30/05/2014 3:53 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
Todd writes:

On 05/28/2014 12:27 PM, Dan.Espen wrote:
I can't see how anyone can be "Paleo/diabetic".
The first part is the weird idea that eating like a caveman is
good for you. The second part is a disease.

Hi Dan,

Paleo keeps you from getting T2 Diabetes. It also helps
you heal from it.

Also, T2 Diabetes is not a "disease". It is an "injury"
(carbohydrate poisoning) and it is self inflicted.
I speak from experience.

You are stating your opinions as if they are facts.

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's
like 'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is
highly fashionable.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes
to what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

Hi Fran,

One in six of us are getting T2 Diabetes. The Diabetes Association
is predicting it will go down to one and three (though I think they
may have dubious motives). It is directly linked to the over
consumption of carbs. It doesn't fall out of the sky and hit you
in the head.

Carbs are fine, when consumed in the quantities that were available
in our ancestral diet (99% of human history), which was extremely
varied. We now have gotten too cleaver for ourselves and have
hybridized plants to produce artificial amounts of carbohydrates
that do not occur naturally in nature. I think this all came about
when we discovered beer and hybridized grains for better beer.
So the poison in truly in the dosage.

There is a part of your brain called the satiation switch
that makes us happy when we eat carbs. Only problem is
that it is designed for our ancestral diet, not the
artificially hybridized diet of today. Carbs become very,
very addictive. They are cheap to produce, which makes
the special interests push the damned things.

Oh do you know the scoundrels a the USDA think I should
be eating 400 grams of carbs a day! (I am between 30 and 60,
and health folks should probably keep it under 100.)
Talk about corruption and palm waxing! There is so much
money in cheap food like substances (carbs).

And this goes way beyond a fad. It is a major health problem.
I know one man it killed. He refused to stop eating carbs.
I know another man who told me how to abuse drugs (insulin)
so he could eat pie. He now has lost both legs, lost his
kidneys (he is on the transplant list), had a major heart
attack. It is going to kill him and a lot of people
love and depend on him. And he still won't dump the carbs.
This is a horrible addiction.

I think part of the "Fad" part you are pointing out is that folks
have noticed that you can not get fat on fat (use or lose). To
get fat required insulin (the fat hormone) and carbs. So fat
bigotry has some to play with it. The weight loss industry
is a bunch of so and so's. And society's attitude towards
fat people is scurrilous.

Now if you are in the five out of six, do worry about it. If
you start to gain weight and/or pee a lot, then worry.
(Remember that skinny people get T2 as well.) Also, if
you are suddenly starting to lose weight for no reason and
your idiot friends start to tell you how good you look
(like mine did). WORRY BIG TIME!

The good news is that you can recover from carbohydrate poisoning
(T2 Diabetes). And you can live a completely normal life, as I
and others do, without drugs or allopaths.

And, when you get off the high carbs, your satiation switch
will reset and you will suddenly start to taste subtleties
you never even know were there. My eyes role when I eat my
home grown tomatoes.

Paleo is what pulled me off the drugs. And it is simple.
Meat, fat, low carb plants. What you eat in order of precedence:
1) what you grow or catch yourself, 2) local grown, 3) organic
farmed, 4) as natural as you can get it. Don't obsess on it.
And, oh man I eat so well!

Plus, there is more to Paleo than food and exercise. There
is the walking barefoot, getting up and down with the sun,
spending time with loved ones, including meals together.

We all know that Grok (my favorite cave man) use to have to
chase his food. What we all miss is that he chased it with
his family, his friends, his tribe. We have so totally
lost this in our culture.

If anyone reading this catches T2, I keep a running list
of scientific research on tradition medicine (herbs) to
help heal the injury. If you can find me (ping Todd in the
subject line), I will send it to you.

By the way, speaking of loved ones, T2 is a family/tribe
issue. If anyone in your family/tribe/loved ones has
T2, YOUR EAT WHAT THEY EAT. (Well, at least in front of
them.) My wife made the decision to be on the exact diet
I was on when I got inducted into the pin cushion club.
She has been a total blessing (she is a trophy wife in
the truest meaning.)

I am teaching myself to cook. We eat together. Now to
get the grow it yourself down. (Me and my black thumb.)

The poison in truly in the dosage.

-T

No you are oversimplifying too much. The causes of type 2 diabetes are both
genetic and environmental. Having a parent who had it increases your chance
of getting it. The chance of getting it is also related to

- age
- overweight (particularly)
- lack of excercise.

Consumption of excessive carbohydrates is related to being overweight but is
by no means the whole story. You can have all the risk factors above on a
low carb diet if your ancestors had T2D, you are 60YO, gorge on fat and sit
on your arse all day.

Do not be confused because those who get T2D are told to manage their carb
intake as part of the treatment. This is related to controlling blood sugar
once insulin production becomes deficient which is not the same thing as
preventing T2D by not eating carbs.

If you want to be healthy and live to a ripe old age:

- have good ancestors (!)
- don't smoke
- maintain good weight
- excercise regularly
- eat a BALANCED diet
- don't worry (including about your carbs unless your doctor says so)

David

Todd wrote:
....
Hi Songbird,

1+ Stay away from processed foods.

I don't think you realize it, but you described yourself
as a Paleo. I doubt you will ever get Diabetes.

no, i described myself as someone who knows
the difference between processed and unprocessed
foods. Michael Pollan and the slow food movement
or the CSA movement, or the many other movements
which aim to get back to eating real food and
not processed forms of sugar, corn or soybeans.

Paleo is just yet another way to package the
same ideas that have been there before and it
sells new books, new cookbooks, website content
and advertizing, etc.


....
If you read the whole thing, you will find this is not a
fad. It is very well though out. It saved me from Diabetes.
And, the quality of my life has risen appreciably.

i'm glad it has helped. not on-line at the
moment so i'll try to check the website cited
when i get back in the morning.

what i've read so far about diet and diabetes
is pretty much in line with what David has
written in reply to you so i won't repeat it.
there are some excellent books on the topic which
reiterate much of the Paleo approach, but it's
not called that. from the Dr. Gotts "no sugar,
no flour..." diet to many others... they've
all been good starting points to improving one's
health, but all along the basics have still
remained the same: eat moderately, get plenty
of exercise, avoid extra salt, avoid extra sugars,
etc. these have been known since i was a child.
just that most people do not follow such basics.
the whys of that are manyfold.


songbird

You are off on your Denialist religion again, with all the same logical
fallacies, conspiracies, emotional baggage and time wasting as the one
where you denied climate change. I am going to treat it the same way, it
ends now as far as I am concerned and I suggest the same to everybody else.

Let us get back to gardening.

David

Todd wrote:
On 05/30/2014 09:04 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

You are off on your Denialist religion again, with all the same
logical fallacies, conspiracies, emotional baggage and time wasting
as the one where you denied climate change. I am going to treat it
the same way, it ends now as far as I am concerned and I suggest the
same to everybody else.

Hi David,

Do you always make fun of others when you don't agree or
don't understand what they are saying? No one can have a
viewpoint, other than yours?

-T

I am refusing to waste time on a topic that has zero value to anybody.
Nothing can be exchanged, nothing learned, nothing improved, nothing
changed, hardly fun. You need An Enemy to rail against: it isn't me.

I can't help with your pinecones never grew them.

D

On 31/05/2014 12:04 AM, songbird wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:
...
Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

heh, putting it mildly... the USoA has had
agricultural fiddling with nutrition recommendations
for quite some time, so when actual science is done
it is often skewed by government funding and desires
of legislators to push their pet crops through things
like the school lunch program.

Atkins was popular many years ago. it was yet
another fad diet that has been transformed into
the Paleo diet over the past few years. not too
long ago there was also the cinnamon pill diabetic
craze, the fish oil craze, the carbo diet craze,
the low fat craze, the butter and lard craze.

i think the major improvement in basic nutrition
is best summed up as "eat real food". i.e. stay
away from overly processed foods or things that
don't look like anything real, most of what is in
the grocery store these days is packaged technofoods
that are largely made up of variations on corn, soy,
sugars and various flavorings and preservatives.

The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of
time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff
so much with some products

the recommendation to eat a lot of protein is
largely wrong for humans, we're omnivores, after
so many grams of protein in a diet the rest is
not needed and is very wasteful if you consider
what it takes to raise and process (aside from
plant sources).

:-)) Yup. As a beef producer, I've read a lot on the inefficiencies in
the production of meat protein vs vegetable protein. I also learned the
hard way about the involvement of animal products in colon cancer.

higher fiber foods are great in
general too as they provide bulk, making a person
feel actually satisfied from a meal, various
probiotic foods are good.

i stay away from too much salt, and get plenty
of exercise, that seems to be the most consistent
advice you can get from various cultural studies.

Yep. Avoid fat, sugar and salt, get lots of exercise and hydrate well
say all of my health professionals. Shame I didn't pay more attention
before I got 3 major cancers (I don't count the various non terminal
skin cancers)

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

i try to eat mainly what i grow and what i
cook as i pretty much like almost anything. for
the largest meal of the day (lunch) i eat enough
to get me through to dinner and a day of gardening.
i can eat about what i want now with me being
more active. for later on, i eat a large bowl of
shredded cabbage and carrots with various things
added and a sweet and sour dressing of some type.
keeps me full and mostly away from the night time
snacks.

I find that I like a full tummy at night. Dunno why but that's the way
I am.