On 30/05/2014 11:58 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
Fran Farmer writes:

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

I can't tell if it is just the US, as my exposure is largely online.

Diet has become worse than religion for not being able to tell what
meaning someone has attached to a word. I used to hang out in a
cooking group and was very confused by several posters until I
realized when they said "carbs" they meant "sugar," and when they
said "protein" they meant "meat."

:-)) That's the problem that I'd noticed too.

Except when they didn't.

It wasn't worth the effort after a while.

:-))) Been there and got the T-shirt.

Not worth it.

On 5/29/2014 8:53 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 29/05/2014 10:46 PM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:
Higgs Boson said:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:42:40 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:



And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that

I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than

fresh.

That sounds wildly counter-intuitive. Did your interlocutors say why?

I've noticed that sometimes the plants that grow from my older squash
seeds
are more likely to skip the first flush of male flowers and get right
to producing
female flowers. Most particularly this seems to be true of the C. pepo
types
(zuchinni, summer squash, delicata, acorn).

That's interesting. I must pay more attention next time I plant older
seeds of the cucurbita family. One thing that does occur to me is that
in Australia what we call 'pumpkin', USians call 'winter squash' so
Higgs might still need to seek a definitive answer to his query.

I'm assuming that the gardeners who told me about older pumpkin seeds
found out what they were telling me based on experience just as you did
with your summer squash. One of these gardeners also told me that dog
poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say I've ever been
tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked for many
years at Government House then he should have had some knowledge and
skills.

Same, same Fran, squash and pumpkins are all basically squash.
Nomenclature is just a way to get your kids to eat pumpkin. G

We have numerous acorn squash seed that didn't compost well so one of
the beds has lots of squash growing. I baked a store bought acorn squash
and tossed the seeds in the composter. The seeds germinated in the
garden bed and are producing what looks like a Hubbard squash that has a
light green background and dark green stripes. Hybridization does that
to plants. Doesn't matter to us as squash is squash and might be a
pumpkin but it's all edible. Amazes the great grand kids when they see
something different and teaches them a small lesson about hybridization,
I hope.

Fran Farmer wrote:
songbird wrote:
....
i think the major improvement in basic nutrition
is best summed up as "eat real food". i.e. stay
away from overly processed foods or things that
don't look like anything real, most of what is in
the grocery store these days is packaged technofoods
that are largely made up of variations on corn, soy,
sugars and various flavorings and preservatives.

The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of
time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff
so much with some products

a lot of it comes down to a few needs of a packaged
food and of course money. keep it from rotting for a
long time and keep it palatable while sitting on a shelf
for months at a time. sugars, salts, additives to keep
fats stable, keep moisture in the product and not out
condensing on the inside of the packaging. and then
the money factor where the added ingredients are often
cheaper.


the recommendation to eat a lot of protein is
largely wrong for humans, we're omnivores, after
so many grams of protein in a diet the rest is
not needed and is very wasteful if you consider
what it takes to raise and process (aside from
plant sources).

:-)) Yup. As a beef producer, I've read a lot on the inefficiencies in
the production of meat protein vs vegetable protein. I also learned the
hard way about the involvement of animal products in colon cancer.

i'm glad you made it through the treatments.


higher fiber foods are great in
general too as they provide bulk, making a person
feel actually satisfied from a meal, various
probiotic foods are good.

i stay away from too much salt, and get plenty
of exercise, that seems to be the most consistent
advice you can get from various cultural studies.

Yep. Avoid fat, sugar and salt, get lots of exercise and hydrate well
say all of my health professionals. Shame I didn't pay more attention
before I got 3 major cancers (I don't count the various non terminal
skin cancers)

wow!


After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

i try to eat mainly what i grow and what i
cook as i pretty much like almost anything. for
the largest meal of the day (lunch) i eat enough
to get me through to dinner and a day of gardening.
i can eat about what i want now with me being
more active. for later on, i eat a large bowl of
shredded cabbage and carrots with various things
added and a sweet and sour dressing of some type.
keeps me full and mostly away from the night time
snacks.

I find that I like a full tummy at night. Dunno why but that's the way
I am.

the large salad keeps me feeling full all night.
i joke about how much exercise i get just eating it.
normally, with a very dense food with a lot of
calories, i can eat way too fast (two minutes or
less) and that makes it easy to overdo it. with the
large bowl of salad i can't eat it that fast and
the calories are much less.


songbird

George Shirley wrote:
Fran wrote:
....
I'm assuming that the gardeners who told me about older pumpkin seeds
found out what they were telling me based on experience just as you did
with your summer squash. One of these gardeners also told me that dog
poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say I've ever been
tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked for many
years at Government House then he should have had some knowledge and
skills.

Same, same Fran, squash and pumpkins are all basically squash.
Nomenclature is just a way to get your kids to eat pumpkin. G

We have numerous acorn squash seed that didn't compost well so one of
the beds has lots of squash growing. I baked a store bought acorn squash
and tossed the seeds in the composter. The seeds germinated in the
garden bed and are producing what looks like a Hubbard squash that has a
light green background and dark green stripes. Hybridization does that
to plants. Doesn't matter to us as squash is squash and might be a
pumpkin but it's all edible. Amazes the great grand kids when they see
something different and teaches them a small lesson about hybridization,
I hope.

i've always seen recommendations to include a
variety of types in a patch to encourage good
fruit setting/filling. my own experience here
bears that out.

as we don't have a formal compost pile to
put scraps in i put them in the worm bins, but
after several years of having squash and melon
seeds pushing up through my other seedlings i
decided the past few years to separate as much
out as i can before putting things in the worm
bins and to put the seeds into only one of the
worm bins (that one doesn't go out into the
gardens each spring).

as most squash seeds are great when roasted
i've taken to squeezing them out of the pulp
(do not add any water) and drying them on a tray
before rubbing the last bits of stuff off them.
i have a good supply now for planting. if we
had more empty fields about i'd be scattering
them in those to see if i can get a wild
population established. i'm hoping i can get
out in the back area (on the other side of the
large drainage ditch) and scatter a bunch of
squash and melon seeds back there. likely
most of them will be animal food, but that's
ok...


songbird

On Saturday, May 31, 2014 6:50:46 AM UTC-7, songbird wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

songbird wrote:

...

i think the major improvement in basic nutrition

is best summed up as "eat real food". i.e. stay

away from overly processed foods or things that

don't look like anything real, most of what is in

the grocery store these days is packaged technofoods

that are largely made up of variations on corn, soy,

sugars and various flavorings and preservatives.



The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of

time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff

so much with some products



a lot of it comes down to a few needs of a packaged

food and of course money. keep it from rotting for a

long time and keep it palatable while sitting on a shelf

for months at a time. sugars, salts, additives to keep

fats stable, keep moisture in the product and not out

condensing on the inside of the packaging. and then

the money factor where the added ingredients are often

cheaper.





the recommendation to eat a lot of protein is

largely wrong for humans, we're omnivores, after

so many grams of protein in a diet the rest is

not needed and is very wasteful if you consider

what it takes to raise and process (aside from

plant sources).



:-)) Yup. As a beef producer, I've read a lot on the inefficiencies in

the production of meat protein vs vegetable protein. I also learned the

hard way about the involvement of animal products in colon cancer.



i'm glad you made it through the treatments.





higher fiber foods are great in

general too as they provide bulk, making a person

feel actually satisfied from a meal, various

probiotic foods are good.



i stay away from too much salt, and get plenty

of exercise, that seems to be the most consistent

advice you can get from various cultural studies.



Yep. Avoid fat, sugar and salt, get lots of exercise and hydrate well

say all of my health professionals. Shame I didn't pay more attention

before I got 3 major cancers (I don't count the various non terminal

skin cancers)



wow!





After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was

bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer

bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to

what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.



i try to eat mainly what i grow and what i

cook as i pretty much like almost anything. for

the largest meal of the day (lunch) i eat enough

to get me through to dinner and a day of gardening.

i can eat about what i want now with me being

more active. for later on, i eat a large bowl of

shredded cabbage and carrots with various things

added and a sweet and sour dressing of some type.

keeps me full and mostly away from the night time

snacks.



I find that I like a full tummy at night. Dunno why but that's the way

I am.

Fran, was that you who wrote about "full tummmy at night"?

Now I'm nobody to preach, but I have read studies on weight as follow: Subjects in group A ate their last meal around 3 PM. Subjects in Group B ate their last meal at 6 pm. Subjects in Group C ate their last meal at 9 PM. ISTR the 3:00 group lost the most weight, followed by the 6, with 9 coming in last. Supposedly the slower metabolism at night doesn't work as hard.

the large salad keeps me feeling full all night.

i joke about how much exercise i get just eating it.

normally, with a very dense food with a lot of

calories, i can eat way too fast (two minutes or

less) and that makes it easy to overdo it. with the

large bowl of salad i can't eat it that fast and

the calories are much less.

HAH! So true! I'm a carb freak and have to fight to make myself prepare dark green vegs, though I love my broccoli when I finally make it. Unlike one of our former Presidents:

"I do not like broccoli. And I haven't liked it since I was a little kid and my mother made me eat it. And I'm President of the United States and I'm not going to eat any more broccoli.

George H. W. Bush"

As to longer consumption times g for breakfast, I usually eat Scotch oats -- the granular ones -- but sometimes I'll take the time to build a chopped salad of whatever's around, sprinkled with Israeli feta cheese and lemon juice from my tree. (Mouth watering; must hastily log off...)

HB

"David Hare-Scott" writes:

You are off on your Denialist religion again, with all the same
logical fallacies, conspiracies, emotional baggage and time wasting
as the one where you denied climate change. I am going to treat it
the same way, it ends now as far as I am concerned and I suggest the
same to everybody else.

Yep, I tried too.

I found this particularly outrageous:

No. I offend the special interests that make tons of
money off of food like substances and treating
the effect of what they cause.

Now our own tried and proven plant expert
and selfless giver of information
is a corporate lackey.
Who would have guessed?

Let us get back to gardening.

Yep, immune to reason.

--
Dan Espen

On Saturday, May 31, 2014 11:55:36 AM UTC-7, Todd wrote:
On 05/31/2014 01:15 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:

The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of

time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff

so much with some products. You got that right! Go into Vons or Ralphs and look at that alluring display of pies & cakes -- then look at the book-length labels and turn away, shuddering.

Anybody know which food sage said he doesn't eat anything with more than 5 ingredients?


[...]

Yup. As a beef producer, I've read a lot on the inefficiencies

in the production of meat protein vs vegetable protein. I also

learned the hard way about the involvement of animal products

in colon cancer.

First off, "My hero!". If animal products are involved,

I would "posit" that it is what is in them, not the animal

itself. The Inuits eat very little of anything else and

no colon cancel.



But look at the type of meat the Inuits eat. It is all wild.

It is not "cured" or processed. It is not full of hormones,

antibiotics, and other disgusting chemical. It is fed

a natural diet.


[...]

And the Inuit -- before the white man messed up them and their environment -- were the healthiest SOBs around. Their environment was sterile -- too cold for germs -- and they ate, as you point out, they lived on a raw meat died of fresh-killed local animals.

One thing they did know -- among their millennial wisdoms - was don't eat the Polar Bear's liver -- it is toxic.* Too much Vitamin A, is one theory. The sad fate suffered by brave white explorers stranded in the Arctic was due to eating Polar bear liver.

*The Polar bear is my totem animal -- I admire the hell out of them and bewail the effects of global warming on their habitat The ice covering the sea is shrinking.

They and the seals they prey on have played this deadly game for ? millennia? The seals must surface to breathe periodically Either they haul out on an ice floe where the bear hides to catch them, or they breathe through their holes, where the bear is waiting. He is one smart animal!

HB

Higgs Boson wrote:
Todd wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of
time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff
so much with some products. You got that right! Go into Vons or Ralphs
and look at that alluring display of pies & cakes -- then look at the book-length
labels and turn away, shuddering.

If you're eating foods that come in a package printed with a list of
ingredients then you're eating poison.

Anybody know which food sage said he doesn't eat anything with more than 5 ingredients?

Sage is one herb I don't care for. Someone who doesn't use herbs and
spices... your typical TIADer (Taste In Ass Disease'er) who thinks
drive thru mystery meat burgers are the be all to end all. When I
cook a stew, soup, meat loaf, etc. it may contain 30+ ingredients. I
never eat any ground meat that I didn't grind myself. Why do the
number of ingredients matter?!?!? My spice, herb, and dehy locker
must contain over 300 ingredients... at least a dozen dried mushrooms,
and as many dried peppers. If you consume previously ground pepper
rather than grinding your own peppercorns then you are consuming roach
parts and rodent turds. If you eat previously ground mystery meat you
are eating diseased food, it contains cancers that are not picked out.
Cut up chicken parts comes from diseased chickens, the diseased parts
go to make pet food. 99.9% of the food info you hear about on TV or
read is 100% myth and lies dreamed up by pinheads. There is no such
thing as organic foods, not on this planet.... organic food is a scam
to rip off those with more dollars than brain cells.

Todd writes:

On 05/31/2014 09:01 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
I found this particularly outrageous:

No. I offend the special interests that make tons of
money off of food like substances and treating
the effect of what they cause.

I kind of liked that one myself. If you ever catch
diabetes, you will be as ****ed as me. Especially
if you ask your GP how to get off the drugs
and he tells you it is very rare and you have to
exercise your ass off.

You know what? I'll blame myself (and chance).
The innocent victim role just doesn't appeal to me.

Personally, I love a good cookie, and if I eat it,
it's my fault, not some special interest.

--
Dan Espen

On Saturday, May 31, 2014 1:36:51 PM UTC-7, Brooklyn1 wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:

Todd wrote:

Fran Farmer wrote:



The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of

time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff

so much with some products. You got that right! Go into Vons or Ralphs

and look at that alluring display of pies & cakes -- then look at the book-length

labels and turn away, shuddering.



If you're eating foods that come in a package printed with a list of

ingredients then you're eating poison.



Anybody know which food sage said he doesn't eat anything with more than 5 ingredients?



Sage is one herb I don't care for. Someone who doesn't use herbs and

spices... your typical TIADer (Taste In Ass Disease'er) who thinks

drive thru mystery meat burgers are the be all to end all. When I

cook a stew, soup, meat loaf, etc. it may contain 30+ ingredients. I

never eat any ground meat that I didn't grind myself. Why do the

number of ingredients matter?!?!? My spice, herb, and dehy locker

must contain over 300 ingredients... at least a dozen dried mushrooms,

and as many dried peppers. If you consume previously ground pepper

rather than grinding your own peppercorns then you are consuming roach

parts and rodent turds. If you eat previously ground mystery meat you

are eating diseased food, it contains cancers that are not picked out.

Cut up chicken parts comes from diseased chickens, the diseased parts

go to make pet food. 99.9% of the food info you hear about on TV or

read is 100% myth and lies dreamed up by pinheads. There is no such

thing as organic foods, not on this planet.... organic food is a scam

to rip off those with more dollars than brain cells.

I was using the word "sage" to denote a wise person. So a food "sage" would be somebody who knows a lot about food.

HB

On 05/31/2014 06:53 PM, Todd wrote:
Go ahead an eat your cookie. All things in
moderation. You should be just fine. Probably
better for you than that big old plate of
whole grain (ha ha) pasta that sent me to
the ER.


To avoid chemicals, make sure it is home made.
And, squeezed from a tube does not qualify.

Higgs Boson wrote:

Anybody know which food sage said he doesn't eat anything with more
than 5 ingredients?

Silly generalisation. The concept is that you don't eat factory produced
food with a list of processed food-like substances and chemicals as long as
your arm. The trouble is this leaves out a vast amount of perfectly healthy
home-cooked cuisine as well. How do you make a good Indian curry with 5
ingredients?

It's like the bloke (Polan?) who said don't eat any food your grandmother
had never heard of. The intent is good: to leave out all those chemicals.
My grandmother had never heard of garlic or zucchini or fresh ginger
wholemeal bread. Another silly generalisation.

D

Todd wrote:
....
I have noticed the overlap too.
....

i did check his site. reads very
similar to a lot of other things i've
read, so yeah, to me it's a rehash,
repackaged, represented and basically
the same sort of thing you would get
from anyone who keeps up on these sorts
of topics.


songbird

On 05/31/2014 08:17 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:

Anybody know which food sage said he doesn't eat anything with more
than 5 ingredients?

Silly generalisation. The concept is that you don't eat factory
produced food with a list of processed food-like substances and
chemicals as long as your arm. The trouble is this leaves out a vast
amount of perfectly healthy home-cooked cuisine as well. How do you
make a good Indian curry with 5 ingredients?

It's like the bloke (Polan?) who said don't eat any food your
grandmother had never heard of. The intent is good: to leave out all
those chemicals. My grandmother had never heard of garlic or zucchini or
fresh ginger wholemeal bread. Another silly generalisation.

D

Hi David,

1+ It doesn't matter what the number of ingredients
are AS LONG AS THEY ARE FOOD!

Ever look at the chemicals on a bottle of salad
dressing? Yikes!

-T

On 5/31/2014 1:37 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 30/05/2014 11:58 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
Fran Farmer writes:

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

I can't tell if it is just the US, as my exposure is largely online.

Diet has become worse than religion for not being able to tell what
meaning someone has attached to a word. I used to hang out in a
cooking group and was very confused by several posters until I
realized when they said "carbs" they meant "sugar," and when they
said "protein" they meant "meat."

:-)) That's the problem that I'd noticed too.

Except when they didn't.

It wasn't worth the effort after a while.

:-))) Been there and got the T-shirt.

Not worth it.

Metabolism can be generalized for groups of people, but there are always
outliers. IOW, there are always people who are different than normal.
I hate people who think that just because they have a diet of rabbit
poop, yogurt, and spring water, and they are somewhat healthy, it is the
key to life and anyone who doesn't toe the line is crazy.

Some particular food and cooking groups online are particularly
contentious, having a ruling cabal of six or eight individuals who
control the whole group. Pounding newcomers or anyone who does things
different into submission. the name brooklyn comes to mind. I stopped
going there after a time, figuring out that people who knew everything
had nothing to learn from me.

Steve