Maybe I don't get out much, but a few days ago I was browsing the garden
department at Lowe's and found some bags of rubber mulch. It was quite
expensive - around $10 for 2 cubic feet, as I recall. I found the idea sort
of disturbing. I didn't bother to look at the bag, but I assume that the
mulch is made from old tires. The label touted the fact that you would only
have to use this product once, unlike conventional mulch that has to be
applied every year or two. Someone use that pine nugget mulch on some of
the beds at my house and it never seems to disappear no matter how hard I
try to rid myself of it. I can't even imagine using rubber. What happens
when you need to plant something? It seems you would have to carefully
remove it if you wanted to improve the soil. Oh well, I guess it probably
isn't any worse than the red volcanic rock than the people up the street use
around their shrubs - or is it?

It is amusing to find bags of trash (ground up discarded tires) priced so
high. Has anyone tested this stuff for toxicity and long term effects in the
garden?

I would expect such mulch to raise the soil pH because of its high sulphur
content and eventually make it too toxic to grow plants. I certainly
wouldn't use it around vegetables and herbs or anything you intend to eat.

What's next? Garden sculpture and bird baths made out of Tarmac?


Vox Humana wrote in message
...
Maybe I don't get out much, but a few days ago I was browsing the garden
department at Lowe's and found some bags of rubber mulch. It was quite
expensive - around $10 for 2 cubic feet, as I recall. I found the idea
sort
of disturbing. I didn't bother to look at the bag, but I assume that the
mulch is made from old tires. The label touted the fact that you would
only
have to use this product once, unlike conventional mulch that has to be
applied every year or two. Someone use that pine nugget mulch on some of
the beds at my house and it never seems to disappear no matter how hard I
try to rid myself of it. I can't even imagine using rubber. What happens
when you need to plant something? It seems you would have to carefully
remove it if you wanted to improve the soil. Oh well, I guess it probably
isn't any worse than the red volcanic rock than the people up the street
use
around their shrubs - or is it?

Correction: I meant that the high sulphur content would lower the soil pH by
degrading into sulfides and sulphates and making it too acidic.


Cereoid-UR12 wrote in message
gy.com...
It is amusing to find bags of trash (ground up discarded tires) priced so
high. Has anyone tested this stuff for toxicity and long term effects in
the
garden?

I would expect such mulch to raise the soil pH because of its high sulphur
content and eventually make it too toxic to grow plants. I certainly
wouldn't use it around vegetables and herbs or anything you intend to eat.

What's next? Garden sculpture and bird baths made out of Tarmac?


Vox Humana wrote in message
...
Maybe I don't get out much, but a few days ago I was browsing the garden
department at Lowe's and found some bags of rubber mulch. It was quite
expensive - around $10 for 2 cubic feet, as I recall. I found the idea
sort
of disturbing. I didn't bother to look at the bag, but I assume that
the
mulch is made from old tires. The label touted the fact that you would
only
have to use this product once, unlike conventional mulch that has to be
applied every year or two. Someone use that pine nugget mulch on some
of
the beds at my house and it never seems to disappear no matter how hard
I
try to rid myself of it. I can't even imagine using rubber. What
happens
when you need to plant something? It seems you would have to carefully
remove it if you wanted to improve the soil. Oh well, I guess it
probably
isn't any worse than the red volcanic rock than the people up the street
use
around their shrubs - or is it?

"Cereoid-UR12" wrote in message
gy.com...
Correction: I meant that the high sulphur content would lower the soil pH
by
degrading into sulfides and sulphates and making it too acidic.


Looks like zinc toxicity might be problematic, also.

http://www.agr.state.nc.us/../agronomi/rubber.htm

Jo

This is not a new product, it's been around for 20+ years. It's original use
was for playgrounds. Instead of the blacktop or concrete for the kiddies to
hurl themselves onto from the play equipment they put this stuff down so
they would bounce a bit and not bleed quite so profusely. It was also
supposed to have gone down on paths and walk ways, easier on the shoes and
body than gravel, mud, etc. Horse arenas were also another target customer.
This is the first I have heard of it for sometime. It sort of disappeared
from public as far as I can tell. Perhaps it was a bust for it's former
uses and now they are touting this material as garden mulch and somebody has
a warehouse full of this stuff and they are trying to get rid of
it........... AGAIN.

Val

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...
Maybe I don't get out much, but a few days ago I was browsing the garden
department at Lowe's and found some bags of rubber mulch. It was quite
expensive - around $10 for 2 cubic feet, as I recall. I found the idea
sort
of disturbing. I didn't bother to look at the bag, but I assume that the
mulch is made from old tires. The label touted the fact that you would
only
have to use this product once, unlike conventional mulch that has to be
applied every year or two. Someone use that pine nugget mulch on some of
the beds at my house and it never seems to disappear no matter how hard I
try to rid myself of it. I can't even imagine using rubber. What happens
when you need to plant something? It seems you would have to carefully
remove it if you wanted to improve the soil. Oh well, I guess it probably
isn't any worse than the red volcanic rock than the people up the street
use
around their shrubs - or is it?

One of the things I like best about the shredded mulch that we use is that
it turns into rich, black dirt in a year or two. I have the deepest,
blackest and most fertile beds because of the compost action of the mulch.
Earthworm city -- they love it. Yes, it does mean that I have to put more
mulch on each year -- but that's maybe only an afternoon or two of work --
and what a great way to get nice soil!

I can't imagine the lava rock (or the rubber) being anywhere near as good.
Yes, it would last longer -- forever, I guess. But what a waste of
opportunity for making more fertile soil!

--
-- pelirojaroja
"dangerous redhead"
"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...
Maybe I don't get out much, but a few days ago I was browsing the garden
department at Lowe's and found some bags of rubber mulch. It was quite
expensive - around $10 for 2 cubic feet, as I recall. I found the idea
sort
of disturbing. I didn't bother to look at the bag, but I assume that the
mulch is made from old tires. The label touted the fact that you would
only
have to use this product once, unlike conventional mulch that has to be
applied every year or two. Someone use that pine nugget mulch on some of
the beds at my house and it never seems to disappear no matter how hard I
try to rid myself of it. I can't even imagine using rubber. What happens
when you need to plant something? It seems you would have to carefully
remove it if you wanted to improve the soil. Oh well, I guess it probably
isn't any worse than the red volcanic rock than the people up the street
use
around their shrubs - or is it?

Since it is organic, even rubber is eventually biodegradable by the actions
of bacteria. Seen it happen in landfills.

However, I would not want to use what results as a soil for growing plants.
The stuff is apparently toxic and most weeds won't even grow in it.

How did ground rubber get approved for use as mulch anyway?


pelirojaroja wrote in message
...
One of the things I like best about the shredded mulch that we use is that
it turns into rich, black dirt in a year or two. I have the deepest,
blackest and most fertile beds because of the compost action of the mulch.
Earthworm city -- they love it. Yes, it does mean that I have to put more
mulch on each year -- but that's maybe only an afternoon or two of work --
and what a great way to get nice soil!

I can't imagine the lava rock (or the rubber) being anywhere near as good.
Yes, it would last longer -- forever, I guess. But what a waste of
opportunity for making more fertile soil!

--
-- pelirojaroja
"dangerous redhead"
"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...
Maybe I don't get out much, but a few days ago I was browsing the garden
department at Lowe's and found some bags of rubber mulch. It was quite
expensive - around $10 for 2 cubic feet, as I recall. I found the idea
sort
of disturbing. I didn't bother to look at the bag, but I assume that
the
mulch is made from old tires. The label touted the fact that you would
only
have to use this product once, unlike conventional mulch that has to be
applied every year or two. Someone use that pine nugget mulch on some
of
the beds at my house and it never seems to disappear no matter how hard
I
try to rid myself of it. I can't even imagine using rubber. What
happens
when you need to plant something? It seems you would have to carefully
remove it if you wanted to improve the soil. Oh well, I guess it
probably
isn't any worse than the red volcanic rock than the people up the street
use
around their shrubs - or is it?

Amazing.

The studys say outright that ground rubber is unsuitable for growing plants
and using it results in high levels of zinc that are toxic to plants.

The stuff should be pulled from the store shelves immediately.

Lowes did not do their homework before considering selling the stuff to the
public. They are leaving themselves wide open to being sued for selling
toxic material!!


jo wrote in message
. com...

"Cereoid-UR12" wrote in message
gy.com...
Correction: I meant that the high sulphur content would lower the soil
pH
by
degrading into sulfides and sulphates and making it too acidic.


Looks like zinc toxicity might be problematic, also.

http://www.agr.state.nc.us/../agronomi/rubber.htm

Jo

In article om,
"Cereoid-UR12" wrote:

It is amusing to find bags of trash (ground up discarded tires) priced so
high. Has anyone tested this stuff for toxicity and long term effects in the
garden?

Ground up rubber tires have most certainly been tested as soil enrichment,
& not been found very thrilling. All seriously independent studies
recommend NOT using recycled tires in compost & fertilizer products
because these studies show that its use & re-use raises the zinc level to
harmful levels sufficient to kill plants. There are other accumulative
side-effects that would warn against using ground rubber in compost mixes.
But if all secondary problems are"excused", the zinc, cadmium, & other
heavy metals factor is alone too enormous to be rationally overlooked.

It does have a slight (very slight) nitrogen value. Rufus Chaney of the
USDA following the research for 20 years stated that the MAJORITY of
research leads to the conclusion that for the Zn factor alone, ground or
chipped rubber should never be used in gardens or composts. Nevertheless,
rubber IS an undisclosed ingredient in many commercially packaged
composts.

The nutritional value is so slight it is really a very poor choice even
were it not toxic, but it IS also potentially toxic. As one might suspect,
the attempt to find garden uses is inspired not by a desire to improve
horticultural & agricultural techniques, but by adesparation to get rid of
a type of trash that our culture generates by the millions of tons &
cannot easily discard. Political & economic pressures have been brought to
bare even on horticultural research projects. Governments INSTRUCT
research fascilities to find SOME useful value for used tires, then
industry makes the research itself profitable (via grants provided from
the petroleum, chemical, & rubber industries) -- so that studies are set
up specifically to find something good to say about this crud, & to come
up with findings that will assist industry in profiting itself by their
waste products, rather than incurring any expenses of disposal. Even the
Northeast Recycle Council (NERC) has been successfully coopted by the
rubber industry -- under pretense of being a watchdog & research
non-profit, NERC has been promoting all kinds of ideas profitable to the
rubber industry. In their own minds they are not sell-outs; they have
sincerely convinced itself that the enormous problem of used tire waste
MUST be solved in a profitable manner or it will never be solved at all --
& duping themselves, & us, into believing it's great stuff for the
gardens, heavy metal content & all, has ruined them as a credible
organization. When they promote "buy recycled products!" it may well turn
out to be something toxic for an inappropriate use, but soft-touch
ecologists are apt to buy into it.

Rufus Chaney is unambiguous: "It may look like good money, but rubber-Zn
will ruin the compost product." Yet SOME value for this crud is being
established. The toxic factors are increasingly & intentionally NOT part
of the studies, & even if the best a study can show is that rubber kills
stuff, that is shaped even by the resarchers to help industrial PR people
tranform the finding into proof that it makes a great weed-suppressing
mulch. The problem of synthetics chemical toxic gasses released from
ground up rubber is dismissed because nobody was ever asphyxiated by these
gasses, & really it is only a problem of the hideous stench of these gases
on any hot day. (But at least one study showed that "volatile organic
compounds" -- meaning chemical organics -- were sufficiently toxic that
products with ground rubber should not be used in enclosed areas or
indoors as a human health hazard)

Industry can "spin" even the worst finding. When the industry is told
"zinc in crumb rubber toxifies soil especially with repeat usage," their
smiling faces reply, "The zinc content is beneficial to zinc deficient
topsoils." When it is found that crumb rubber "kills flowers," it becomes
"retards weeds." And so on.

It is now being VERY successfully marketed sterile top-coating to suppress
weeds, & apparently can LOOK loamy even though its rubber. "Crumb rubber
for weed control" is a phrase that is going to be tried on us more &
more, & if it succeeds, this crud WILL become a fundamental product from
the same sorts of outfits who brought us so many garden poisons with
happy-faces attached. Crumb rubber mulch is marketed by Rubber Resources
of Florida under the brand name Everlast (great name -- admits you can
never get this crud back out of the environment), & by YardCo (also of
Florida). The "testing" has been done by the companies themselves -- the
test garden in Hudson Florida called Garden World Nursery is owned by
Rubber Resources & is "display propoganda" rather than oriented toward
credible controled study; & of coruse they're not claiming it has any
actual value except for covering up the soil. There's a strongly
propogandistic attempt to convince organic gardeners that by participating
in recycling of this nature they are really good liberals & such -- but
for the average gardener who puts poisons on their garden all the time,
the market is already guaranteed. YardCo promises their cedar-colored
rubber particles are "95% steel free!" Most such products don't even make
that laughable boast.

It's no accident that Florida, the Carolinas, & Arkansas are the places
where this stuff first gained "popularity" or was first marketed
successfully. Waste Management Acts in southern states acknowledges that
the #1 waste management problem was rubber tires. They encouraged novel &
creative uses, & they provided the first markets for these novel products.
South Carolina's Three Rivers Solid Waste Authority was the first major
client for rubber waste dumped over great areas of land at highway rest
stops. The SC Department of Health & Environmental Control's Office of
Solid Waste Reduction & Recycling put their own PR department to work
promoting a potentially harmful waste product as the ultimate solution to
the problem of used tire disposal. If the rubber barrons can get local
government to do their propoganda for them, how much nicer it all works
out for Industry!

A three year study in South Carolina was an amazing white-wash job. The
primary "plus" was that county & state laborers & groundkeepers liked the
stuff because it lessened the amount of work they had to do, since the
stuff never leaves the environment the way organic products do. This is a
little like giving a clean bill of health to Sterno because tramps said it
was good to drink. Although the PR spin was that "no problems were
reported," the study did note (as an unimportant aside) that rubber mulch
did kill all the flowers in summer, & it smelled bad on hot days, but the
important factors for its continued use was it was permanent in the
environment & it kept its color. When studies are arranged to assess how
long it lasts without fading, rather than how it harms the environment,
really great things can be said about it! South Carolina's waste
management agency even went out of its way to promote the product in other
states & spread the project to kill the flowers & stink up the rest stops
all across the continent -- they already hadtheir own state's waste tires
ready to ship.

The South Carolina study also found that producing this stuff is one of
the most expensive uses of public funds. But was that a negative?
Certainly not! Because they could charge every tire buyer a special tax on
every tire sold in the state, & because the stuff was permanent in the
environment, in the "long view" it was actually PROFITABLE to raise taxes
to fund a project that would spoil the environment. It may sound so
irrational that it's hard to believe, but the #1 waste management problem
is those tires, & that fact colors the attitudes of government agencies
responsible for finding SOME way to get rid of tires, since taking them
back to the manufacture to recycle into new tires was ruled out decades
ago & the government agreed to pick up after the industry one way or
another, under threat of the industry going to some third world locality
(like Georgia) to do their damage.

When the idea that it was a good sterile mulch that didn't HAVE to benefit
plants to be a Really Really Good Thing, they were really onto something
marketable. They got child safety people on their side, government waste
management people, recycle environmentists -- the rubber industry greased
the palms of many activist organizations & university departments to focus
on this one aspect & stop damning the stuff for its negative effect on
loam values. When the Arkansas Attorney General RECOMMENDED rubber mulch
for state playgrounds & parks, it was because Davis Rubber was a local
employer -- all politics & profit, NOT inherent value. When a University
study is NOT bought & paid for by industry (such as Ellen Harrison's
research at Cornell University Waste Management Institute), the
condemnation of rubber being strewn into the gardening environment is
entirely clear, & the industry never sites truly independent findings.
Richard Evans of the Horticultural Extension of Davis University in
California put the best spin he could on his study of potting soils made
with crumb rubber. All glowy-eyed in one interview he said how really well
the chrystanthemums grew in this potting medium, saying "It works pretty
well. It has some nice properties." Pressed for details, he was little
less happily to admit, "The only problem was, the zinc content began to
kill the chrysanthemums." It took ONE WEEK for the plants to show evidence
of toxification & browning leaves. And that wasn't even with repeat use --
just one good dose of crumb rubber & kaput. How could he interpret that in
any way as "a nice property" when it resulted inevitably in rapid plant
decline? Check the funding source, the answer will be there.

AlternaMulch brand BOASTS that this stuff won't break down in the
environment in a CENTURY. This is supposedto be good! Other brands
include Rubberific, Homestead Rubber Mulch, Soft Landing, Pour-N,
RubberStuff, a host of others. So clearly the market is broad, & this
stuff is being dumped into the environment by the millions of tons as
landscape feature. Most do not pretend it benefits gardens; rather, they
are trying to horn in on the woodchip & shavings marketplace to coat
playgrounds & carnival & state fair grounds or picnic areas. But some of
it is packaged to be used as a general garden mulch. ALL the comnpanies in
this relatively new industry of selling rubber particles as mulch often
cites as vaguely as possible a Pennsylvania State University study as
though it lauded the product. But that study made NO evaluation of the
effects (good or bad) on gardens; it merely showed that if you fall down
on rubber it hurts less than if you fall down on sticks or rocks. Woopy.

In fertilizers per se the inroads have been less effective. Most rubber
nowadays is synthetic; the chemical, petroleum, & rubber industries are
hardly to be distinguished. And these conglomerates already dominate
chemical fertilizer industry big-time. When pressured by the government to
do something about the growing problem of used tire disposal, making
ignorant gardeners buy it one way or another remains the #1 priority --
then a problem becomes a profit. If it ultimately leads to other problems,
who cares, it solves an immediate problem while assisting rather than
harming industry profits. Government assistance to the rubber industry is
even more absurd in some other countries. In Malaysia all government
rubber policies are oriented toward benefiting the sizeable rubber
industry, which has resulted in a considerable problem of waste tires
since it does not benefit the industry to make them address such thorny
problems. So the government encouraged the public to buy & use a recycled
rubber fuel which completely fouled the atmosphere. A bakery used it for
their ovens until public outcry against rubber-flavored breads & pastries
made them stop. I don't think this project is still going on, it was an
embarrassment to all. But just about all uses that are being found for old
tires has the same underlying philosophy that the environment does not
count as much as do industrial profits. The REAL answer is to formulate &
manufacture tires in such a manner that they are recyclable into making
new tires out of old ones; as presently formulated this is impossible, &
neither the oil tycoons nor the rubber barons want this to change because
it is more profitable to keep providing new raw materials.

The Horticultural Research Center in Carbondale found that a medium that
was 20% ground or scraped rubber tires sustained evenly green lawns, plus
(no joke) it gave the ground "bounce," so that it was actually being
recommended for turfs on which chilren & adults play sports. Southern
Illinois University actually developed such a rubber-medium turf in 1998 &
it is still in use for campus sports. But note that the recommendation was
exclusively for turf, not gardening, & the comparison was between rubber
medium, and sand, rather than to any sort of balanced topsoil. In essence
the nutritional value was negligible, but moisture retention was improved
when rubber was compared to sand.

Since the American public at least isn't buying the idea that crumb rubber
is a fertilizer, recycled bits have been slipped into products only as
"bulking agent." Ingredient labels on commercial composts don't have to
say the bulking agent is ground-up tires, so people who do not carefully
seek out trustworthy organic products may already be using tire particles
in their gardens without knowing it. And for a one-time use the dangers
are so slight as to be (in the industrial way of thinking) unworthy of
note. The problems arise when recycled rubber is in LOTS of products
(whether or not we know it) or when composts with rubber bulking agents
are used repeatedly in a given area or when it is doubled-up with rubber
mulch, insuring the Zn factor of injury to the soil, & the nearly
irreversible problem of slow decay or break-down of rubber in the
formulas.

Since the only even moderate stamp of approval for landscaping has been as
a mulch to fall on & not get hurt, this has been the greatest focus of
use. But since the industry also wants it to be used for general
gardening, the University of Arkansas did some testing to see if, within
the limited value as a sterile mulch, it causes any harm. Unfortunately
the Horticultural department was HIRED by Davis Rubber Company, so it
cannot be mistaken for an independent study. University of Florida also
took funding from Florida rubber mulch manufacturers to "prove" something
positive about it -- though whimsically their "best" spin in the products
favor was only that it was good for permanent landscape features where a
landscaper wanted nothing to grow, & even at that they recommended it be
mixed with gravel to limit this lightweight crud's migration into areas
where it might cause harm.

As a soil enrichment per se no study praises it. Yet "crumb rubber" is in
the marketplace now with recommendations to be included in garden
products. If even a small percentage could be included in a popular brand,
it'd increase the profits to the manufacturer of the product & benefit the
rubber industry besides. Serious value to gardening is a secondary issue;
they'll end up using this stuff at least as padding if it is profitable.
And people have already bought into the idea of ground up packing peanuts
strewn through the soil, so why not rubber if some of the same claims can
be made for it PLUS it has an eency weency nutritional value vermiculite
lacks.

Easy inroads are also being made in other countries. In Argentina, crumb
rubber is alleged to be "natural" or "organic" fertilizer, since rubber is
presumedly a tree product to start with, conveniently overlooking the fact
that tires have not been manufactured from pure rubber for decades.

Crumb rubber plants are being opened in almost every state of the union
because government has accepted this as the best answer to a solid waste
problem with the economic side-benefits of more jobs. Many a so-called
"environmental" project can be turned into an opportunity to spread out
more crumb rubber -- it's being used in wetlands "restoration" projects
for example, vast amounts of tire waste dumped into wetlands despite
studies that show it only takes one week to start killing plants.

The best we can hope for is that organic gardening will become so
widespread that the governmental & industrial desire to dupe us all & sell
us stuff to injure the environment will in the long run fail. So far, it
looks like they're having a rousing success.

-paghat the ratgirl

I would expect such mulch to raise the soil pH because of its high sulphur
content and eventually make it too toxic to grow plants. I certainly
wouldn't use it around vegetables and herbs or anything you intend to eat.

What's next? Garden sculpture and bird baths made out of Tarmac?

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

In article 1052411307.685820@yasure, "Valkyrie" wrote:

This is not a new product, it's been around for 20+ years. It's original use
was for playgrounds. Instead of the blacktop or concrete for the kiddies to
hurl themselves onto from the play equipment they put this stuff down so
they would bounce a bit and not bleed quite so profusely. It was also
supposed to have gone down on paths and walk ways, easier on the shoes and
body than gravel, mud, etc. Horse arenas were also another target customer.
This is the first I have heard of it for sometime. It sort of disappeared
from public as far as I can tell. Perhaps it was a bust for it's former
uses and now they are touting this material as garden mulch and somebody has
a warehouse full of this stuff and they are trying to get rid of
it........... AGAIN.

Val

Actually it's been around for 50 years & was initially a Cornell research
product for soil ammendments. When they could not find a way to use it
safely (& never mind it is now a common UNsafe bulking agent in commercial
composts), the playground use was the later back-up plan, & was indeed
where the first commercial inroads occurred.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

In article , "pelirojaroja"
wrote:

One of the things I like best about the shredded mulch that we use is that
it turns into rich, black dirt in a year or two. I have the deepest,
blackest and most fertile beds because of the compost action of the mulch.
Earthworm city -- they love it. Yes, it does mean that I have to put more
mulch on each year -- but that's maybe only an afternoon or two of work --
and what a great way to get nice soil!

I can't imagine the lava rock (or the rubber) being anywhere near as good.
Yes, it would last longer -- forever, I guess. But what a waste of
opportunity for making more fertile soil!

Absolutely right, & yet the industry "spin" is that unlike those awful
natural mulches that rot away into horrible humus forcing you to put down
more mulch, rubber mulch lasts FOREVER so saves you MONEY and saves you
LABOR, so surely you MUST use rubber instead.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

In article , "Cereoid-UR12"
wrote:

Since it is organic, even rubber is eventually biodegradable by the actions
of bacteria. Seen it happen in landfills.

However, I would not want to use what results as a soil for growing plants.
The stuff is apparently toxic and most weeds won't even grow in it.

How did ground rubber get approved for use as mulch anyway?

The government prioritized certain problems this way:

1) The foremost waste management problem in America is what to do with
waste tires. One way or another it MUST be taken care of, but:

2) We're an automobile related society and whatever the answer to problem
may be, it must foremost be compatible with having more & more
automobiles.

3) If the tire industry is forced to spend money to clean up a problem the
industry causes, the industry will be ****ed off & move to Indonesia,
where for a fee millions upon millions of used tires have already been
accepted from Malaysia & Thailand & the Philipines, turned into enormous
mountains of waste rubber.

4) If the public can be inducedto PAY MONEY to obtain bags full of ground
up tires, it could be PROFITABLE rather than economic burden to have all
these bothersome used tires about.

5) If the environment is harmed by this "solution," the harm has to be
weighted against the positives of doing away with the waste & adding to
rather than subtracting from the economic environment.

6) Sure, this "solution" creates another environmental hazard. But even
bad news can be worded to sound like good news, & that's all that matters.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

In article ,
"Cereoid-UR12" wrote:

Amazing.

The studys say outright that ground rubber is unsuitable for growing plants
and using it results in high levels of zinc that are toxic to plants.

The stuff should be pulled from the store shelves immediately.

Lowes did not do their homework before considering selling the stuff to the
public. They are leaving themselves wide open to being sued for selling
toxic material!!

Crumb rubber as bulking agent does not have to be listed as "crumb rubber"
in the packaging details, but only as bulking agent or some other
imprecise listing. It's in so many products already that marketing some of
it openly as crumb rubber isn't going to get Lowes sued. Government
agencies are encouraging these uses, & several environmental agencies have
become little more than shills to further promote these unsuitable
products.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Not thrilling?

It turns out the stuff is TOXIC!!!!!

I find that rather frightening and am amazed that the stuff is being sold at
all.

It should be promptly removed from the shelves and BANNED!!!!



paghat wrote in message
news
In article om,
"Cereoid-UR12" wrote:

It is amusing to find bags of trash (ground up discarded tires) priced
so
high. Has anyone tested this stuff for toxicity and long term effects in
the
garden?

Ground up rubber tires have most certainly been tested as soil enrichment,
& not been found very thrilling. All seriously independent studies
recommend NOT using recycled tires in compost & fertilizer products
because these studies show that its use & re-use raises the zinc level to
harmful levels sufficient to kill plants. There are other accumulative
side-effects that would warn against using ground rubber in compost mixes.
But if all secondary problems are"excused", the zinc, cadmium, & other
heavy metals factor is alone too enormous to be rationally overlooked.

It does have a slight (very slight) nitrogen value. Rufus Chaney of the
USDA following the research for 20 years stated that the MAJORITY of
research leads to the conclusion that for the Zn factor alone, ground or
chipped rubber should never be used in gardens or composts. Nevertheless,
rubber IS an undisclosed ingredient in many commercially packaged
composts.

The nutritional value is so slight it is really a very poor choice even
were it not toxic, but it IS also potentially toxic. As one might suspect,
the attempt to find garden uses is inspired not by a desire to improve
horticultural & agricultural techniques, but by adesparation to get rid of
a type of trash that our culture generates by the millions of tons &
cannot easily discard. Political & economic pressures have been brought to
bare even on horticultural research projects. Governments INSTRUCT
research fascilities to find SOME useful value for used tires, then
industry makes the research itself profitable (via grants provided from
the petroleum, chemical, & rubber industries) -- so that studies are set
up specifically to find something good to say about this crud, & to come
up with findings that will assist industry in profiting itself by their
waste products, rather than incurring any expenses of disposal. Even the
Northeast Recycle Council (NERC) has been successfully coopted by the
rubber industry -- under pretense of being a watchdog & research
non-profit, NERC has been promoting all kinds of ideas profitable to the
rubber industry. In their own minds they are not sell-outs; they have
sincerely convinced itself that the enormous problem of used tire waste
MUST be solved in a profitable manner or it will never be solved at all --
& duping themselves, & us, into believing it's great stuff for the
gardens, heavy metal content & all, has ruined them as a credible
organization. When they promote "buy recycled products!" it may well turn
out to be something toxic for an inappropriate use, but soft-touch
ecologists are apt to buy into it.

Rufus Chaney is unambiguous: "It may look like good money, but rubber-Zn
will ruin the compost product." Yet SOME value for this crud is being
established. The toxic factors are increasingly & intentionally NOT part
of the studies, & even if the best a study can show is that rubber kills
stuff, that is shaped even by the resarchers to help industrial PR people
tranform the finding into proof that it makes a great weed-suppressing
mulch. The problem of synthetics chemical toxic gasses released from
ground up rubber is dismissed because nobody was ever asphyxiated by these
gasses, & really it is only a problem of the hideous stench of these gases
on any hot day. (But at least one study showed that "volatile organic
compounds" -- meaning chemical organics -- were sufficiently toxic that
products with ground rubber should not be used in enclosed areas or
indoors as a human health hazard)

Industry can "spin" even the worst finding. When the industry is told
"zinc in crumb rubber toxifies soil especially with repeat usage," their
smiling faces reply, "The zinc content is beneficial to zinc deficient
topsoils." When it is found that crumb rubber "kills flowers," it becomes
"retards weeds." And so on.

It is now being VERY successfully marketed sterile top-coating to suppress
weeds, & apparently can LOOK loamy even though its rubber. "Crumb rubber
for weed control" is a phrase that is going to be tried on us more &
more, & if it succeeds, this crud WILL become a fundamental product from
the same sorts of outfits who brought us so many garden poisons with
happy-faces attached. Crumb rubber mulch is marketed by Rubber Resources
of Florida under the brand name Everlast (great name -- admits you can
never get this crud back out of the environment), & by YardCo (also of
Florida). The "testing" has been done by the companies themselves -- the
test garden in Hudson Florida called Garden World Nursery is owned by
Rubber Resources & is "display propoganda" rather than oriented toward
credible controled study; & of coruse they're not claiming it has any
actual value except for covering up the soil. There's a strongly
propogandistic attempt to convince organic gardeners that by participating
in recycling of this nature they are really good liberals & such -- but
for the average gardener who puts poisons on their garden all the time,
the market is already guaranteed. YardCo promises their cedar-colored
rubber particles are "95% steel free!" Most such products don't even make
that laughable boast.

It's no accident that Florida, the Carolinas, & Arkansas are the places
where this stuff first gained "popularity" or was first marketed
successfully. Waste Management Acts in southern states acknowledges that
the #1 waste management problem was rubber tires. They encouraged novel &
creative uses, & they provided the first markets for these novel products.
South Carolina's Three Rivers Solid Waste Authority was the first major
client for rubber waste dumped over great areas of land at highway rest
stops. The SC Department of Health & Environmental Control's Office of
Solid Waste Reduction & Recycling put their own PR department to work
promoting a potentially harmful waste product as the ultimate solution to
the problem of used tire disposal. If the rubber barrons can get local
government to do their propoganda for them, how much nicer it all works
out for Industry!

A three year study in South Carolina was an amazing white-wash job. The
primary "plus" was that county & state laborers & groundkeepers liked the
stuff because it lessened the amount of work they had to do, since the
stuff never leaves the environment the way organic products do. This is a
little like giving a clean bill of health to Sterno because tramps said it
was good to drink. Although the PR spin was that "no problems were
reported," the study did note (as an unimportant aside) that rubber mulch
did kill all the flowers in summer, & it smelled bad on hot days, but the
important factors for its continued use was it was permanent in the
environment & it kept its color. When studies are arranged to assess how
long it lasts without fading, rather than how it harms the environment,
really great things can be said about it! South Carolina's waste
management agency even went out of its way to promote the product in other
states & spread the project to kill the flowers & stink up the rest stops
all across the continent -- they already hadtheir own state's waste tires
ready to ship.

The South Carolina study also found that producing this stuff is one of
the most expensive uses of public funds. But was that a negative?
Certainly not! Because they could charge every tire buyer a special tax on
every tire sold in the state, & because the stuff was permanent in the
environment, in the "long view" it was actually PROFITABLE to raise taxes
to fund a project that would spoil the environment. It may sound so
irrational that it's hard to believe, but the #1 waste management problem
is those tires, & that fact colors the attitudes of government agencies
responsible for finding SOME way to get rid of tires, since taking them
back to the manufacture to recycle into new tires was ruled out decades
ago & the government agreed to pick up after the industry one way or
another, under threat of the industry going to some third world locality
(like Georgia) to do their damage.

When the idea that it was a good sterile mulch that didn't HAVE to benefit
plants to be a Really Really Good Thing, they were really onto something
marketable. They got child safety people on their side, government waste
management people, recycle environmentists -- the rubber industry greased
the palms of many activist organizations & university departments to focus
on this one aspect & stop damning the stuff for its negative effect on
loam values. When the Arkansas Attorney General RECOMMENDED rubber mulch
for state playgrounds & parks, it was because Davis Rubber was a local
employer -- all politics & profit, NOT inherent value. When a University
study is NOT bought & paid for by industry (such as Ellen Harrison's
research at Cornell University Waste Management Institute), the
condemnation of rubber being strewn into the gardening environment is
entirely clear, & the industry never sites truly independent findings.
Richard Evans of the Horticultural Extension of Davis University in
California put the best spin he could on his study of potting soils made
with crumb rubber. All glowy-eyed in one interview he said how really well
the chrystanthemums grew in this potting medium, saying "It works pretty
well. It has some nice properties." Pressed for details, he was little
less happily to admit, "The only problem was, the zinc content began to
kill the chrysanthemums." It took ONE WEEK for the plants to show evidence
of toxification & browning leaves. And that wasn't even with repeat use --
just one good dose of crumb rubber & kaput. How could he interpret that in
any way as "a nice property" when it resulted inevitably in rapid plant
decline? Check the funding source, the answer will be there.

AlternaMulch brand BOASTS that this stuff won't break down in the
environment in a CENTURY. This is supposedto be good! Other brands
include Rubberific, Homestead Rubber Mulch, Soft Landing, Pour-N,
RubberStuff, a host of others. So clearly the market is broad, & this
stuff is being dumped into the environment by the millions of tons as
landscape feature. Most do not pretend it benefits gardens; rather, they
are trying to horn in on the woodchip & shavings marketplace to coat
playgrounds & carnival & state fair grounds or picnic areas. But some of
it is packaged to be used as a general garden mulch. ALL the comnpanies in
this relatively new industry of selling rubber particles as mulch often
cites as vaguely as possible a Pennsylvania State University study as
though it lauded the product. But that study made NO evaluation of the
effects (good or bad) on gardens; it merely showed that if you fall down
on rubber it hurts less than if you fall down on sticks or rocks. Woopy.

In fertilizers per se the inroads have been less effective. Most rubber
nowadays is synthetic; the chemical, petroleum, & rubber industries are
hardly to be distinguished. And these conglomerates already dominate
chemical fertilizer industry big-time. When pressured by the government to
do something about the growing problem of used tire disposal, making
ignorant gardeners buy it one way or another remains the #1 priority --
then a problem becomes a profit. If it ultimately leads to other problems,
who cares, it solves an immediate problem while assisting rather than
harming industry profits. Government assistance to the rubber industry is
even more absurd in some other countries. In Malaysia all government
rubber policies are oriented toward benefiting the sizeable rubber
industry, which has resulted in a considerable problem of waste tires
since it does not benefit the industry to make them address such thorny
problems. So the government encouraged the public to buy & use a recycled
rubber fuel which completely fouled the atmosphere. A bakery used it for
their ovens until public outcry against rubber-flavored breads & pastries
made them stop. I don't think this project is still going on, it was an
embarrassment to all. But just about all uses that are being found for old
tires has the same underlying philosophy that the environment does not
count as much as do industrial profits. The REAL answer is to formulate &
manufacture tires in such a manner that they are recyclable into making
new tires out of old ones; as presently formulated this is impossible, &
neither the oil tycoons nor the rubber barons want this to change because
it is more profitable to keep providing new raw materials.

The Horticultural Research Center in Carbondale found that a medium that
was 20% ground or scraped rubber tires sustained evenly green lawns, plus
(no joke) it gave the ground "bounce," so that it was actually being
recommended for turfs on which chilren & adults play sports. Southern
Illinois University actually developed such a rubber-medium turf in 1998 &
it is still in use for campus sports. But note that the recommendation was
exclusively for turf, not gardening, & the comparison was between rubber
medium, and sand, rather than to any sort of balanced topsoil. In essence
the nutritional value was negligible, but moisture retention was improved
when rubber was compared to sand.

Since the American public at least isn't buying the idea that crumb rubber
is a fertilizer, recycled bits have been slipped into products only as
"bulking agent." Ingredient labels on commercial composts don't have to
say the bulking agent is ground-up tires, so people who do not carefully
seek out trustworthy organic products may already be using tire particles
in their gardens without knowing it. And for a one-time use the dangers
are so slight as to be (in the industrial way of thinking) unworthy of
note. The problems arise when recycled rubber is in LOTS of products
(whether or not we know it) or when composts with rubber bulking agents
are used repeatedly in a given area or when it is doubled-up with rubber
mulch, insuring the Zn factor of injury to the soil, & the nearly
irreversible problem of slow decay or break-down of rubber in the
formulas.

Since the only even moderate stamp of approval for landscaping has been as
a mulch to fall on & not get hurt, this has been the greatest focus of
use. But since the industry also wants it to be used for general
gardening, the University of Arkansas did some testing to see if, within
the limited value as a sterile mulch, it causes any harm. Unfortunately
the Horticultural department was HIRED by Davis Rubber Company, so it
cannot be mistaken for an independent study. University of Florida also
took funding from Florida rubber mulch manufacturers to "prove" something
positive about it -- though whimsically their "best" spin in the products
favor was only that it was good for permanent landscape features where a
landscaper wanted nothing to grow, & even at that they recommended it be
mixed with gravel to limit this lightweight crud's migration into areas
where it might cause harm.

As a soil enrichment per se no study praises it. Yet "crumb rubber" is in
the marketplace now with recommendations to be included in garden
products. If even a small percentage could be included in a popular brand,
it'd increase the profits to the manufacturer of the product & benefit the
rubber industry besides. Serious value to gardening is a secondary issue;
they'll end up using this stuff at least as padding if it is profitable.
And people have already bought into the idea of ground up packing peanuts
strewn through the soil, so why not rubber if some of the same claims can
be made for it PLUS it has an eency weency nutritional value vermiculite
lacks.

Easy inroads are also being made in other countries. In Argentina, crumb
rubber is alleged to be "natural" or "organic" fertilizer, since rubber is
presumedly a tree product to start with, conveniently overlooking the fact
that tires have not been manufactured from pure rubber for decades.

Crumb rubber plants are being opened in almost every state of the union
because government has accepted this as the best answer to a solid waste
problem with the economic side-benefits of more jobs. Many a so-called
"environmental" project can be turned into an opportunity to spread out
more crumb rubber -- it's being used in wetlands "restoration" projects
for example, vast amounts of tire waste dumped into wetlands despite
studies that show it only takes one week to start killing plants.

The best we can hope for is that organic gardening will become so
widespread that the governmental & industrial desire to dupe us all & sell
us stuff to injure the environment will in the long run fail. So far, it
looks like they're having a rousing success.

-paghat the ratgirl

I would expect such mulch to raise the soil pH because of its high
sulphur
content and eventually make it too toxic to grow plants. I certainly
wouldn't use it around vegetables and herbs or anything you intend to
eat.

What's next? Garden sculpture and bird baths made out of Tarmac?

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

"Vox Humana" wrote:

Maybe I don't get out much, but a few days ago I was browsing the garden
department at Lowe's and found some bags of rubber mulch. It was quite
expensive - around $10 for 2 cubic feet, as I recall. I found the idea sort
of disturbing. I didn't bother to look at the bag, but I assume that the
mulch is made from old tires.

It is. It is very useful for mulching under children's play
equipment, or in industrial areas.



Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré