(Pat Kiewicz) wrote:

DigitalVinyl said:

My in the groud garden has various sprouts now. However I've become
suspicious that some of the sprouts that I thought were from my seed
may not be.

Other than long term experience--how the hell do you tell these little
guys apart? It would be great if a book showed you the seedling stage
as well as the full grown.

When I'm planting something that I've never planted before
For me that would be everything. I started more than I should have for
a first year, but I wanted to keep my interest up. I've got a good
30-40 different plants, buy in many cases just one or two growing. For
flowers I planted a few bunches as borders or pots for hanging. I've
got one in-the-ground area and several deep container/troughs, plus
smaller pots on the patio. Its the in the ground one that is
flourishing with what is *now* clearly a weed. New ones have popped up
above garlic, onion, and marigolds. Those plants have been up for
weeks, so I know these new guys must be some kind of weed.

what I
normally do is to plant a few seeds in a pot or plant a largish clump of
seeds and mark them with a stick. This will give me a 'sample' to
recognize.

After a while, you learn to recognize your most common weeds as seedlings.
But if you bring material (leaves, manure) onto your property you can also
bring in new and unfamiliar weeds, so there would always be a chance that
unfamiliar seedings are weeds.

basil

Little sprouts where the first seed leaves seem to almost want to
be part of a single oval, but are snipped in the middle to make a pair.
I just spotted a pair in the center of where I planted basil. They are
a darker green than the other "weeds".(yank)


nigella(love in a mist)

The two seed leaves resemble some other plants but the first true
leaf is disected/feathery. Usually a paler shade of green
I've got some cotyledon(sp?) pairs up, the simple longer ovoids, like
a pepper's. Unlike the doubles I'm seeing everywhere else (yank)

Do carrot seedlings have long thin spikey leaves

Yes, thin spikey leaves.
That's what I thought the others are weeds. (yank)

Thanks.
DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

Pat Meadows wrote:

On Tue, 27 May 2003 15:18:00 -0400, DigitalVinyl
wrote:


As a beginner I've been trying to stick to instructions for lack of
better ideas. Although I've screwed that up too..seeded viola's
outside and they never showed up. I guess as long as I know the ground
is ready I could start them inside next year. But I'd put them out
quickly when they were tiny. I mentioned in another thread that my
2week old corn seeds were 2 inches topgrowth and had 6-8" roots going
straight down. I'd be worried about hurting first growth like that
starting everything inside small cels.

Unfortunately, we haven't room for corn - I've never grown
corn, so I don't know how I would grow it.
I don't expect anything, too few planted from what I've read and I've
got tons of birds out back. But I had a some room left over and
thought it would be fun to see them growing. It is definitely one of
those crops that I will take down if I needed room for something
better.

However, I just finished reading a library book entitled
'The New Victory Garden' by Bob Thomson (one of the former
'hosts' on the PBS TV show), and he recommended starting
corn inside.

I also know some people on a mailing list who start corn
indoors - so it can certainly be done. I don't know the
details.

Pat

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

This is the best reason to put a twig in the ground at each end of a row,
run a string between the two, and follow that line when you sow seeds (at
least until you are able to recognize sprouts). Even if a hard rain scatters
some of the seeds, it's unlikely to scatter all of them. The ones near that
straight line are your guide.
Not doing strict rows, but I did leave markers. With some seeds it
would be SO easy to drop them and not even notice. I seeded very
little, 2-3 seeds where I wanted one plant. What a PITA! I used an
eyedropper to suck the seeds up with some water and dropped them where
I wanted. It was time consuming and I got sloppier. Towards the end I
had about 6-8 basil seeds and I wanted just one plant--I think I just
dumped the seeds on the ground. As tedious as it was, I haven't had to
thin much and this new guy popping up is the first weeding I've needed
since I started 5 weeks ago.

We also have had a lot of dreary and wet weather last 2+weeks so rain
runoff washing seeds around was a possibility. I reworked the top 18"
of soil and after 2 weeks it settled unevenly, slopely to the left and
to the center on one side. Unfortunately seeds have been sown so I
can't just throw more dirt down and even it out. After things are
growing off the ground some I can amend the tops and even it out more
to fix the slant.

For shallow seeds, like carrots, sprinkle the row with builder's sand (or
even kids' play sand) after sowing. It'll help keep the soil from crusting
over, and cushion heavy rainfall. For all seeds close to the surface, get a
misting attachment (Dramm makes a brass one that's perfect), and water with
that instead of other methods which may float the seed all over the place.


DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

animaux wrote:

Here are some websites which may help:

http://www.weeds.iastate.edu/weed-id/weedid.htm

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...ms/DC0776.html

Thanks, flipping through them now but no match so far.
Dame's violet came closest. The description says it has pointed leaves
but the photo looks round. THese are simple round with the larger
leaves above the tiny lateral leaves. Probably some local thing. I've
got one growing near a stone border with nothing near. I'll let it
live a little while just to see what it becomes.
DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

On Wed, 28 May 2003 08:40:04 -0400, DigitalVinyl wrote:

Thanks, flipping through them now but no match so far.
Dame's violet came closest. The description says it has pointed leaves
but the photo looks round. THese are simple round with the larger
leaves above the tiny lateral leaves. Probably some local thing. I've
got one growing near a stone border with nothing near. I'll let it
live a little while just to see what it becomes.
DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

The first spring in this garden I allowed everything to come up and flower. I
pulled what was noxious before it went to seed. I had everything from noxious
mustard to native horsemint, horseherb, anemone, zephranthes, lantana, blue eyed
grass, gaura, maxmillion sunflower, and so many more plants to name.

As a result, I have many native wildflowers and they come up in a different
place every year! I love that surprise.

Victoria

"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

I reworked the top 18"
of soil...

After this season, do not rework anything but the top 3". You only need to
go deeper for new garden areas, unless someone is walking on, and
compressing your rows, in which case, they should be pantsed and staked to
the ground near an ant hill.

The soil, in its natural state, has definite layers at which different types
of microorganisms exist. By turning it over deeply each year, you disturb
this stratification. In addition, you uncover many weed seeds which would
otherwise fail to sprout. So, cultivate the top 3" at the beginning of the
season, to break up any crust that has formed from snow and normal settling.
Cultivate even shallower during the season to cut new weeds off at the
ankles, and to keep the soil loose, which serves as a last-resort form of
water retention layer, in case you have not mulched. At the end of the
season, cultivate a little deeper again, to turn in any scrap vegetation,
and perhaps to work fertilizer into the soil.

Pat Meadows writes:

Unfortunately, we haven't room for corn - I've never grown corn, so
I don't know how I would grow it.

It's a pretty easy one. We just dig holes about a foot apart (in rows
far enough apart to walk between) and drop three seeds in each one.
The only hard part about growing corn around here is keeping the coons
out of it.

To save space, we sometimes drop a bean seed (usually a shelling
variety) in each hole with the corn. The beans seem to like the shade
from the corn, and the corn will be gone by the time the beans are
ready to harvest. This year I used a dry bean variety that's
"semi-climbing." I didn't want to waste fence space if it didn't
really climb much, but if it does want to climb, it can climb the
corn.

Some people also plant squash, pumpkins, or other late-season vining
plants alongside their corn, and let them vine through the corn patch.
Again, the corn will be harvested before those later crops take over
the space.


--
Aaron

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
.. .
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

I reworked the top 18"
of soil...

After this season, do not rework anything but the top 3".
Believe me...I have no intention of doing THAT again. Nothing has
grown in this patch of dirt/sand for the last 3-5 years. Weeds barely
popped up. It looked and felt like a sandbox. I pulled half a
wheelbarrel of rocks out for garlic, onion, radishes, carrots and deep
tomato roots. I also amended it with peat moss, humus and composted
manure. It is only about 2.5'x7'. I wouldn't have gone that far with
rows. With all that digging, I only saw five small earthworms. I think
the dirt was very deadish (no nitrogen in a soil test and almost no
phosphorus). I'm hoping to have a much better soil for future years.

You only need to
go deeper for new garden areas, unless someone is walking on, and
compressing your rows, in which case, they should be pantsed and staked to
the ground near an ant hill.

The soil, in its natural state, has definite layers at which different types
of microorganisms exist. By turning it over deeply each year, you disturb
this stratification. In addition, you uncover many weed seeds which would
otherwise fail to sprout. So, cultivate the top 3" at the beginning of the
season, to break up any crust that has formed from snow and normal settling.
Cultivate even shallower during the season to cut new weeds off at the
ankles, and to keep the soil loose, which serves as a last-resort form of
water retention layer, in case you have not mulched. At the end of the
season, cultivate a little deeper again, to turn in any scrap vegetation,
and perhaps to work fertilizer into the soil.

I will add some mulch as soon as the last seedlings show where they
want to grow from. Haven't decided if I want to do something cheap
(like newspaper, grass--i've read cautions about each) or something
more attractive like the reddish wood mulch that I could buy at home
depot. The ground vegetable patch is right at the base of my back
stairs and lattices and I want to keep it looking nice. I even edged
it with vegetable-friendly flowers like nasturtiums, marigolds,
calendula & petunias.

Actually this brings up a question that I've been wondering about. If
you use mulch, do you scrape it away to work the soil or work it in as
dead material? Is that what happens with the reddish mulch that you
typical see in landscaping? Speaking long term, over years, If you
always work it in, don't you end up with too much soil mounding up as
you add mulch, compost, etc. yearly?

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

animaux wrote:

On Wed, 28 May 2003 08:40:04 -0400, DigitalVinyl wrote:

Thanks, flipping through them now but no match so far.
Dame's violet came closest. The description says it has pointed leaves
but the photo looks round. THese are simple round with the larger
leaves above the tiny lateral leaves. Probably some local thing. I've
got one growing near a stone border with nothing near. I'll let it
live a little while just to see what it becomes.
DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

The first spring in this garden I allowed everything to come up and flower. I
pulled what was noxious before it went to seed. I had everything from noxious
mustard to native horsemint, horseherb, anemone, zephranthes, lantana, blue eyed
grass, gaura, maxmillion sunflower, and so many more plants to name.

As a result, I have many native wildflowers and they come up in a different
place every year! I love that surprise.

Whatever this is it is all over the new ground. Each time I look I
spot new little growths. I also don't know how these things grow
underground--some could be invasive and choke what I *trying* to grow.
(Like I might need help killing them!) I planted oregano amongst other
plants and found new oregano shoots a foot or more away from the
original young plant. It apparently spreads by something through the
dirt. Friends warned me it was invasive and grows like a weed. I've
segregated it to a nice pot.

My garden is too small and I'm already growing things as close as
recommended so I don't want to give space or root to something
unplanned.

I actually like some of the wildflowers that grow along our street.
There a little 6" tall one with purple-blue clusters. There's one with
tall allium-like spikes, deep purple flowers and yellow stamen growing
around the rainspout that is pretty. The owner said they tried to kill
it for twenty years and it always comes back.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:


I will add some mulch as soon as the last seedlings show where they
want to grow from. Haven't decided if I want to do something cheap
(like newspaper, grass--i've read cautions about each)

Many newspapers use soy-based ink, so they're not a bad mulch. But, they can
mat down and stay very wet, which is an invitation to slugs. Grass is the
better choice, especially if you haven't used nasty lawn chemicals. But,
grass needs a little attention. Next time you cut, put a couple of gallons
of grass clippings in a small pile. Wait a day and reach into the pile. Feel
that heat? You don't want that near newly seeded rows, or delicate new
stems. Sprinkle it on in thin layers, but keep it a few inches away from the
actual growing plants until it turns brown, at which point you can snug it
up a bit. Other than that, grass is fine.


more attractive like the reddish wood mulch that I could buy at home
depot.

Great stuff, but it tends to be acidic, so you'll need to pay close
attention to the pH of your soil (unless you're raising nothing but holly,
hydrangeas and rhododendron). It's also mechanically irritating to kneel in.
Stick with grass clippings. If you must use store-bought mulch, get the
shredded kind, not the chunks, which will blow around when dry.


Actually this brings up a question that I've been wondering about. If
you use mulch, do you scrape it away to work the soil or work it in as
dead material? Is that what happens with the reddish mulch that you
typical see in landscaping? Speaking long term, over years, If you
always work it in, don't you end up with too much soil mounding up as
you add mulch, compost, etc. yearly?


Grass clippings will decompose pretty quickly, perhaps in a month. You can
help the soil by working them in carefully as you cultivate throughout the
season, and then apply fresh stuff. Shredded wood mulch also decomposes, but
more slowly. The long-term effect of working in mulch is beautifully
textured soil which holds water nicely, and doesn't compact after rains,
like unimproved soil. Yes, the rows will end up being RAISED rows, which is
good, but it won't get out of hand because there's constant decomposition
beneath the surface.

On Wed, 28 May 2003 10:28:16 -0400, DigitalVinyl
wrote:


Actually this brings up a question that I've been wondering about. If
you use mulch, do you scrape it away to work the soil or work it in as
dead material? Is that what happens with the reddish mulch that you
typical see in landscaping? Speaking long term, over years, If you
always work it in, don't you end up with too much soil mounding up as
you add mulch, compost, etc. yearly?


You would then have a 'raised bed' full of crumbly, dark,
rich soil - in other words, practically perfect growing
conditions. What's the problem with that?

We're creating 'special solar-retaining round raised beds'
at the cost of much labor and time this year. (We're
experimenting with 'tire gardening'.)

I'm already in love with raised beds, and would never go
back to anything else (except containers). The raised beds
have almost all the advantages of containers (except that
they're not movable).

It's a good thing our plants *are* in raised beds at the
moment, as the garden paths are covered by standing water
since all it's done here for a month is rain. But...the
plants are safe in their raised beds.

Hahaha, Evil StandingWater, we have defeated you! You are
vanquished!

I'm keeping a weather log in a little software program
called 'My Garden Journal' - I have a min-max thermometer
and a rain gauge. In the month of May so far, we have had
six sunny days and 22 rainy, wet, overcast, or
thunderstorm-y days. Four of the six sunny days were at the
very beginning of the month. This is a bit much!

Pat

Pat Meadows wrote:

On Wed, 28 May 2003 10:28:16 -0400, DigitalVinyl
wrote:


Actually this brings up a question that I've been wondering about. If
you use mulch, do you scrape it away to work the soil or work it in as
dead material? Is that what happens with the reddish mulch that you
typical see in landscaping? Speaking long term, over years, If you
always work it in, don't you end up with too much soil mounding up as
you add mulch, compost, etc. yearly?


You would then have a 'raised bed' full of crumbly, dark,
rich soil - in other words, practically perfect growing
conditions. What's the problem with that?
Well I'm a renter in this house, so I don't know if I want to start
converting their ground into raised beds. :-) I've just seen stuff
about adding compost every year and tilling under everything and now
mulching. It jus tmakes me wonder how fast decomposition can outpace
what I'm piling on. :-) But I do understand its all good for the soil

I'm already in love with raised beds, and would never go
back to anything else (except containers). The raised beds
have almost all the advantages of containers (except that
they're not movable).
From my reading this method just made so much more sense. And after
the work I did to prep the in-the-ground dirt--containers were SWEET!

In the month of May so far, we have had
six sunny days and 22 rainy, wet, overcast, or
thunderstorm-y days. Four of the six sunny days were at the
very beginning of the month. This is a bit much!
Seems to me the last time it was hot and sunny was the week when I
spent 2 days digging out the ground--first of May.

It's almost sunny today. Kinda of brightly overcast!?


DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
...
Pat Meadows wrote:

Well I'm a renter in this house, so I don't know if I want to start
converting their ground into raised beds. :-) I've just seen stuff
about adding compost every year and tilling under everything and now
mulching. It jus tmakes me wonder how fast decomposition can outpace
what I'm piling on. :-) But I do understand its all good for the soil


Let's put it this way: If you do nothing make sure to walk or kneel only in
BETWEEN the rows, they will become raised beds whether you want them to or
not. :-) I'm sure you've walked through a deep forest, off the trail, and
noticed how fluffy the soil is under the carpet of leaves. That's a raised
bed. A BIG-ASS raised bed.

From: Pat Meadows
Date: Wed, May 28, 2003 12:08 PM
Message-id:

I'm keeping a weather log in a little software program
called 'My Garden Journal' - I have a min-max thermometer
and a rain gauge. In the month of May so far, we have had
six sunny days and 22 rainy, wet, overcast, or
thunderstorm-y days. Four of the six sunny days were at the
very beginning of the month. This is a bit much!

Pat

Ha! Are you in northern NJ by any chance with the rest of us ducks? (I know
the Big Wet is happening over various parts of the northeast but those stats
sound exactly like ours here.)

swimmingly,
Tyra
nNJ usa z6b/7a

"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
...
Pat Meadows wrote:


In the month of May so far, we have had
six sunny days and 22 rainy, wet, overcast, or
thunderstorm-y days. Four of the six sunny days were at the
very beginning of the month. This is a bit much!

Grow water chestnuts, and more lettuce!