On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:28:20 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12yo"
wrote:


VINEGAR IS NOT AN HERBICIDE AT ALL!!!!!!!

I tried undiluted household bleach and that did not work either.
Someone told me that (household) will kill poison ivy, but I have
serious doubts using bleach as an herbicide. What will work is salt
or 34-0-0 but this repeated practice can damage concrete and the table
salt runoff can be harmful to plants.

You should all stop listening to what your nitwit neighbors say and use real
weed killers to kill the weeds. Using high concentrations of salt will make
your soil permanently toxic to plants.


Phisherman wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:28:20 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12yo"
wrote:


VINEGAR IS NOT AN HERBICIDE AT ALL!!!!!!!

I tried undiluted household bleach and that did not work either.
Someone told me that (household) will kill poison ivy, but I have
serious doubts using bleach as an herbicide. What will work is salt
or 34-0-0 but this repeated practice can damage concrete and the table
salt runoff can be harmful to plants.

And exactly where do you intend to get acetic acid (not vinegar) in those
concentrations?

At a photographic supply store or a chemical plant?

At those concentrations, the stuff is toxic to humans too. The vapors are
especially harmful.

If you use high concentrations of most chemicals, they will be toxic but
what is the point?

Why not use sulfuric acid instead? That will kill everything, including
plants, pets and children, you twit.



des-weges wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:28:20 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12yo"
wrote:


VINEGAR IS NOT AN HERBICIDE AT ALL!!!!!!!


http://www.barc.usda.gov/anri/sasl/vinegar.html
Research Results from BARC
Greenhouse and field research have been conducted at Beltsville,
Maryland, to determine the efficacy of vinegar for controlling weeds.
The results indicate that vinegar can kill several important weed
species at several growth stages. Vinegar at 10, 15 or 20 % acetic
acid concentration provided 80-100 percent kill of selected annual
weeds, including giant foxtail up to 3 inches in height, common
lambsquarters up to 5 inches, smooth pigweed up to 6 inches, and
velvetleaf up to 9 inches. Control of annual weeds with vinegar at the
5 % acetic acid concentration was variable. Canada thistle shoots were
highly susceptible with 100 percent kill by 5 % vinegar. However,
there was re-growth from Canada thistle roots.

"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been
hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

"Pam" wrote in message
...


Chelsea Christenson wrote:

My master gardener suggested a solution of vinegar and water for
killing the weeds that come up between the bricks in my patio.
Unfortunately, she's on vacation now, so I can't ask her: what is the
correct ratio of vinegar to water?

Household vinegar is not registered as a herbicide

Irrelevant. Hosing is not registered for aphid control, so what.

and has minimal effect
on the control of weeds.

Weeds in paved areas that have roots that are not amenable to pulling can be
killed successfully in my experience by a household vinegar spray in the hot
sun.

Yuu might get some top dieback of young weed
seedlings but the roots will be unaffected and it will have no apparent
effect on larger, more established weeds.

I would guess that you are right here. I would pull these by hand.

Household vinegar is only 5-7% acetic acid - any dilution will reduce that
concentration further. Registered herbicidal applications of vinegar are a
by-product of the wine making industry and are 20% acetic acid (and
typically contain high concentrate citric acid as well) and are extremely
caustic, not to mention expensive (about $50 per gallon). Caution should
be exercised when using - not only because of the causticness but acetic
acid is also very non-selective - it will affect any plant in the vicinity
of the application. At that concentration, it changes the soil pH (at
least temporarily) to the extent that most plants find the soil too acidic
and unhospitable for growth. It is NOT fast acting - the label suggests up
to six months for noticeable results - and the soil may require
remediation before it is acceptable for planting.

I doubt any of this has any relevance in practice. Soil bugs will gobble up
acetic acid so fast you won't be able to blink.
It is a fine source of energy. BTW, it is only expensive coz someone is
ripping someone else off.
I would only use ultracheap household vinegar in the situation above.

It also has a very adverse effect on soil biota.

I suppose they will get fat. Soil bugs just LOVE fatty acids.

Personally, I'd choose
another method of weed control.

Me too except where I have found it works better than much else I've tried
in the above example.

On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 01:21:55 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12yo"
wrote:

Why not use sulfuric acid instead? That will kill everything, including
plants, pets and children, you twit.


What a dullard! As if your precious chemicals are safe and nontoxic!
You said "VINEGAR IS NOT AN HERBICIDE AT ALL!!!!!"





"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 01:21:55 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12yo"
wrote:


And exactly where do you intend to get acetic acid (not vinegar) in those
concentrations?

http://www.organiccompounds.com/shop...sp?productID=6
"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 20:26:34 -0700, des-weges
wrote:


A business license is needed here.
http://www.organiccompounds.com/shop...sp?productID=6

Accessible to gardeners here.
http://www.groworganic.com/a/item_PB...cide25gal.html

Non-Selective Weed and Grass Herbicide Use this alternative herbicide
for environmentally-responsible vegetation management. Made from a
special blend of synergistic components that cause burn-down of
unwanted top growth foliage. Effective on weeds such as lambsquarters,
foxtail, pigweed, plantain, burdock, bindweed, dandelion and Mouseear
chickweed. Repeat applications may be needed for perennial weeds.

Contents: Active ingredients include citric acid and garlic and other
ingredients include acetic acid and yucca extracts. Comes
ready-to-use.

Applying Use a shield when spot-treating. Approved for most food and
fiber crops. Apply when the air is calm and temperatures are between
65° F-90° F.

Exempt Pesticide: This pest control is exempt from registration and
reporting under Federal & California EPA standards and therefore
requires no Pest ID#.

Growing Organically: Listed by OMRI

MSDS
http://www.groworganic.com/a/pdf/msds/pbt771-m.pdf


"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

I wonder why this is any better than the hydrochloric acid some idiot posts
about here every once in a while? (I would dilute the hyrochloric quite a
bit from what you get at the hardware store.) Acetic acid and citric acid
will be broken down by soil bacteria; hydrochloric will ionize to H+ and
Cl- and there's nothing to break down.

Bob


des-weges wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 20:26:34 -0700, des-weges
wrote:


A business license is needed here.

http://www.organiccompounds.com/shop...sp?productID=6


Accessible to gardeners here.
http://www.groworganic.com/a/item_PB...cide25gal.html

Non-Selective Weed and Grass Herbicide Use this alternative herbicide
for environmentally-responsible vegetation management. Made from a
special blend of synergistic components that cause burn-down of
unwanted top growth foliage. Effective on weeds such as lambsquarters,
foxtail, pigweed, plantain, burdock, bindweed, dandelion and Mouseear
chickweed. Repeat applications may be needed for perennial weeds.

Contents: Active ingredients include citric acid and garlic and other
ingredients include acetic acid and yucca extracts. Comes
ready-to-use.

Applying Use a shield when spot-treating. Approved for most food and
fiber crops. Apply when the air is calm and temperatures are between
65° F-90° F.

Exempt Pesticide: This pest control is exempt from registration and
reporting under Federal & California EPA standards and therefore
requires no Pest ID#.

Growing Organically: Listed by OMRI

MSDS
http://www.groworganic.com/a/pdf/msds/pbt771-m.pdf


"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

There is new USDA research on vinegar or acetic acid however you wish. A
google search will give you the various sites carrying the details. If you
only want to kill some plants between bricks or stones and you are the organic
sort, boiling water will do in most broadleaf weeds. As with the acetic acid,
most of them will come back though I have seen this done in Europe for years.
Also seen there is the gardener on hands and knees with a knife.

If the weeds come back, using vinegar (acetic acid) as a weed killer is a
total waste of time and money. Don't you think so, Buckwheat?


CpRensCoNY wrote in message
...
There is new USDA research on vinegar or acetic acid however you wish. A
google search will give you the various sites carrying the details. If
you
only want to kill some plants between bricks or stones and you are the
organic
sort, boiling water will do in most broadleaf weeds. As with the acetic
acid,
most of them will come back though I have seen this done in Europe for
years.
Also seen there is the gardener on hands and knees with a knife.

You are the dullard, you dimwit!!!!!

If Rachel Carson were alive, she'd slap the living shit out of you!!!!!!!!!!


des-weges wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 01:21:55 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12yo"
wrote:

Why not use sulfuric acid instead? That will kill everything, including
plants, pets and children, you twit.


What a dullard! As if your precious chemicals are safe and nontoxic!
You said "VINEGAR IS NOT AN HERBICIDE AT ALL!!!!!"





"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been
hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

Watch out!!!!!!!

Rachel Carson just might come back from the dead just to slap the living
shit out of you!!!!!!!!!!


des-weges wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 01:21:55 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12yo"
wrote:


And exactly where do you intend to get acetic acid (not vinegar) in those
concentrations?

http://www.organiccompounds.com/shop...sp?productID=6
"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been
hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

Especially if its diluted with water and starts out being 5% acetic by volume.
I've had some success using 30% by volume, they do die in baking sun. At our
large grocery chain (HEB) in the Austin area, they do sell 9% acidic by volume
to which I've added an ounce of orange oil and sprayed heavily in direct sun.
It only works in direct sun ALL DAY. It is not a good fix. Hand pulling s much
more effective.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:28:20 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12yo" wrote:

VINEGAR IS NOT AN HERBICIDE AT ALL!!!!!!!



Valkyrie wrote in message
news:1056778411.555856@yasure...
Vinegar is a poor herbicide, it needs to be the high percentage, 20%, and
then needs to be used full strength while the plant is in full sun and
then
said plant will wilt and get all brown and grungy and die
(sometimes)...........then they will all be back in a few weeks and you
can
do this process all over again and again and AGAIN. Torch 'em, dig 'em up
or
spritz 'em with Round-Up if this is not against your delicate
sensibilities. Get a big old screw driver and dig them out and if you
really
have a problem with them re appearing sprinkle some preemergence stuff in
the cracks or just keep digging them out. I had a flag stone patio and
used
Round-up, I had that little 12oz. bottle for about 3 years. On a sunny day
I'd just give the weed a little tiny spritz and that was it. OR you could
do
like my neighbor did with his brick driveway.......just mix up weed killer
in a 3 gallon sprayer and saturate the ENTIRE bricked area, after all more
is always better in some people's book, and then he had dead grass foot
prints from him walking over the drive and then onto his grass, and also
doggy prints and kid prints... looked like an Arthur Murray dance floor
for
Merange` lessons..the run off also killed everything within a two foot
radius of the driveway...it'll give the rest of the neighborhood something
to chuckle about for years!

Val


"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:33:06 -0400, Chelsea Christenson
wrote:

My master gardener suggested a solution of vinegar and water for
killing the weeds that come up between the bricks in my patio.
Unfortunately, she's on vacation now, so I can't ask her: what is the
correct ratio of vinegar to water?


I used vinegar full strength on weeds growing out of the driveway
cracks. It did not work worth a damn. The propane torch worked,
though.

On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 09:27:36 GMT, "Cereoid-UR12yo"
wrote:

You are the dullard, you dimwit!!!!!


Stanley forget the meds again?
"As crude a weapon as a cave man's club the chemical barrage has been hurled at the fabric of life."
Rachel Carson

"Chelsea Christenson" wrote in message
...
My master gardener suggested a solution of vinegar and water for
killing the weeds that come up between the bricks in my patio.
Unfortunately, she's on vacation now, so I can't ask her: what is the
correct ratio of vinegar to water?


Chelsea if you spent the time to read all the...shall we say "blather" in
the responses to your post, you probubly could have pulled the weeds by now.
In fact its possible they even died of old age...