On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:27:22 GMT, "Warren" wrote:


"animaux" wrote in message
.. .

(...)

I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone here would say there is no
use
in a gardening or on a lawn care for some synthesized chemicals, and
I'm
very sure that everyone is aware that just because it's organic, it
doesn't do all good, and nothing but good.

(...)

Raising hand! You are not accurate about that. Not in my case. I
don't use
any pesticides at all.


Let me make sure you're raising your hand to the right thing. When I
said, "but I don't think anyone here would say there is no use
in a gardening or on a lawn care for some synthesized chemicals," I was
not speaking of the choice you make for your own garden. If you're
disagreeing with me, you'd be saying you don't believe that synthesized
chemicals have any use for anyone, anywhere in the entire disciplines of
gardening or lawn care.

If you meant to disagree with me so globally, then I stand corrected. I
would also then say I respect your choice for your garden, and I believe
you are generally in a good place. But I'd also have to call you an
extremist if you're saying that there is no one anywhere that has a
valid use for a synthesized chemical in caring for their lawn and
garden. And I'd have to point out that I find fundamental problems with
any extremist view, even if I agree with most of the doctrine.

Certainly my goal is to be as organic as practically possible. And I
respect those that personally go beyond what's practical because it's
what they believe is best, and advocate their beliefs. I don't respect
people who tell me that there is no room for dissenting opinion in the
ranks.

Mother Teresa didn't expect everyone to be just like her and do
everything she did.

Mother Theresa? What does she have to do with this? Oh a metaphor...I guess?

Anyway, here is where I stand. There is no NEED for anyone, anywhere to use
synthetic methods to grow food, turf, or trees. No NEED. I didn't say NO USE.
I would argue that The Gallo Wine Vineyards are some of the largest vineyards in
the world and supply may millions of gallons of wine. They are strictly
organic, certified. In other words, they don't' NEED to use anything other than
organic/natural method.

This takes time to learn, and my take on it is that most people are not willing
to learn how, so they rationalize what they are doing. It's not only in
gardening, it's in all walks of life.

If someone comes to me and asks me a question, but doesn't like my answer, that
person will ask ten more people till they find the answer they are looking to
hear. It's no different with people who garden.

It's not a matter of character. It's a matter of responsibility. If you don't
agree, that's really fine. We'll have to disagree. However, your "doctrine"
is just as "fundamental" as mine, so keep that in mind.

animaux wrote in
:


I prefer to not mess with that. If you don't care, so be it. I do,
as do many others. Makes the world go around, I suppose.

I am in my first year in a new home and I am beginning to learn about the
trials and tribulations of lawn care. I opted for a lawn service because
of my lack of understanding and a desire to not lose the lawn in the
first year.

Before reading this thread I have come to the realization that
professional lawncare is a tread mill (I stop short of calling it a scam,
due to limited experience, but I will say I am very doubtful of the
methods and process).

The guy has come twice now and done his step 2 of a 5 step program.
Everywhere he fertilized has brown patch, which tells me he may have done
something wrong and upset the balance (it also has been wet and humid for
a few weeks now, so I could be off base). In any case, the cracks in my
faux peace of mind are beginning. I have a 6 month old daughter. I want
her to play on the lawn as I did when I was a kid and I am just worried
about those little colored pellets that lie around on the thatch. I would
love to understand how I can organically maintain my lawn. If organic is
the wrong word, then I simply do not want to dump sacks of godknows on my
lawn for godknowwhy reasons.

Can you maintain a beautiful lawn (forget beautiful, let's leave it at
"lawn") sans Scott's 4 step program?

Gary

animaux wrote:

Nobody said it was criminalistic. The problem is nobody dribbles it. They use
4 bags a year of it to the tune of many billions of pounds of it each year.
And, there is no regulation for what carries this synthetic fertilizer. It can
be any number of waste products, including those found in nuclear power plants.
And no, I will not cite the information, if you are interested, do the research.

*I* dribble it. I have been using the same 20 pound bag of low phosphorus
(15-5-10 I think) synthetic fertilizer on my front lawn (about 1000 square
feet) for about 5 years and haven't even used half of it. I mow with
mulching mower. I use 2,4-d in a squirt bottle and spot treat dandelions
and thistles. Other weeds I either pull up or leave and let the mower get
them. I don't fertilizer the back lawn at all (the dog does that).

I add compost to my garden to feed the soil, and I use a little miracle
grow to foliar feed my tomatoes and peppers. (I did use some of that lawn
fertilizer on my sweet corn this year, but that was unusual.)

Best regards,
Bob

Gary M wrote:
animaux wrote in
:


I prefer to not mess with that. If you don't care, so be it. I do,
as do many others. Makes the world go around, I suppose.


I am in my first year in a new home and I am beginning to learn about the
trials and tribulations of lawn care. I opted for a lawn service because
of my lack of understanding and a desire to not lose the lawn in the
first year.

Before reading this thread I have come to the realization that
professional lawncare is a tread mill (I stop short of calling it a scam,
due to limited experience, but I will say I am very doubtful of the
methods and process).

The guy has come twice now and done his step 2 of a 5 step program.
Everywhere he fertilized has brown patch, which tells me he may have done
something wrong and upset the balance (it also has been wet and humid for
a few weeks now, so I could be off base). In any case, the cracks in my
faux peace of mind are beginning. I have a 6 month old daughter. I want
her to play on the lawn as I did when I was a kid and I am just worried
about those little colored pellets that lie around on the thatch. I would
love to understand how I can organically maintain my lawn. If organic is
the wrong word, then I simply do not want to dump sacks of godknows on my
lawn for godknowwhy reasons.

Can you maintain a beautiful lawn (forget beautiful, let's leave it at
"lawn") sans Scott's 4 step program?

Gary

Yes, if you have a mulching mower (or even if you don't have a mulching
mower and leave the clippings on the lawn). The tricks are proper
watering, so the grass sends its roots down instead of bunching up at the
surface, frequent mowing to the proper height to conserve moisture and not
stress the grass, and leaving the clippings. In the fall, mow at least
some of the leaves instead of raking them.

I like to fertilize *very* lightly in the spring and again in the fall with
cheap commercial fertilizer (*not* weed 'n' feed), but you probably have
enough fertilizer residue in your lawn from the chemlawn guy that you won't
need that for a few years.

But your lawn has had a dose of bad heroin (the chemical lawn service), and
its going through withdrawl now. Just give it lots of water and say nice
things to it for a while.

Best regards,
Bob

There are a few off-the-deep-end "organic" folks. Personally, I am
not one of them. I use products available to me at reasonable cost,
but I do preach about reading and following all the directions on the
container. I've tried "organic methods" and sometimes they work,
other times they are not very effective at all. For example, I hate
pulling weeds and I use Weed-B-Gone and Spectricide in small amounts
with spot treating. Never have I spread weed killer over my entire
lawn, although the directions say you can--it is not necessary in most
cases. I've tried going completely "organic" on my rose garden, and
the methods of natural aphid-control and black-spot control were
unfortunately not successful for me at all, but I gave it a try
anyway. BTW, I have a praying mantis that has been living on my
hydrangea for the past two months and this exceptional specimen has
been chemical-free for the last two years feeding on compost and a
little rotted manure.

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:40:08 -0000, Gary M (xx=ry) wrote:

I am in my first year in a new home and I am beginning to learn about the
trials and tribulations of lawn care. I opted for a lawn service because
of my lack of understanding and a desire to not lose the lawn in the
first year.

Before reading this thread I have come to the realization that
professional lawncare is a tread mill (I stop short of calling it a scam,
due to limited experience, but I will say I am very doubtful of the
methods and process).

EUREKA! Intelligent life as a novice gardener! Congratulations on having an
open mind and using the brains.


The guy has come twice now and done his step 2 of a 5 step program.

Oh, they're doing 5 steps now? Wow. I remember when they started with this lie
and how the marketeers sold it across the nation. I can tell you without any
problem at all that, this 5 step crap is a scam.

Everywhere he fertilized has brown patch, which tells me he may have done
something wrong and upset the balance (it also has been wet and humid for
a few weeks now, so I could be off base). In any case, the cracks in my
faux peace of mind are beginning. I have a 6 month old daughter. I want
her to play on the lawn as I did when I was a kid and I am just worried
about those little colored pellets that lie around on the thatch. I would
love to understand how I can organically maintain my lawn. If organic is
the wrong word, then I simply do not want to dump sacks of godknows on my
lawn for godknowwhy reasons.

I don't know where yo alive or what kind of grass you have, but I am more than
willing to give you a step by step method of taking care of turf which will
rival any other method the lawn jockeys can come up with. Where do you live,
what kind of grass? Start there.

Can you maintain a beautiful lawn (forget beautiful, let's leave it at
"lawn") sans Scott's 4 step program?

Gary

Oh for goodness sake YES! The key points in management of turf is that you
water properly, aerate properly, mow properly and fertilize properly.

The moment you tell us where you live (no not the address!) I guarantee myself
and ten other people can easily tell you how to do it.

V

animaux wrote in
:

The moment you tell us where you live (no not the address!) I
guarantee myself and ten other people can easily tell you how to do
it.

It is central Massachusetts. I am never sure whether I'm Zone 5 or 6 as I
seem to be on the line, slightly east of Worcester. Most of my lawn is
exposed to sun most of the day. I have about 17K sq feet of it, 50%
sloped. As best as I can tell, I have a blend of perennial ryegrass, tall
fescue and kentucky bluegrass. Lawn is 3 months old. It is cut weekly to
3 or 4 inches by a cutting crew. I have checked the cut blades and they
are square, so I think they do a good job. I plan to do that myself next
year when I can find the right tool for the job. As mentioned I have an
extensive outbreak of brown patch at the moment. The grass seems to be
recovering in the early patches and spread has ceased. If it recurs, I am
inclined to try the "cornmeal" approach. Other ideas welcome.

Thanks for you assistance. I am very serious about trying something
different. I do hear of people getting infested with grubs and losing the
whole lawn. I am especially curious to know if there are ways of dealing
with those things, aside from chemical pesticides?

Gary

FWIW, the fastest growing nich in landscape care in our area are 'green'
lawncare companies. Many companies are finally 'getting it' with regard to
protecting the Chesepeake Bay against nutrient runoff and are applying a
MUCH more sensible program to their clientele.

Dave

"animaux" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:40:08 -0000, Gary M (xx=ry)
wrote:

I am in my first year in a new home and I am beginning to learn about the
trials and tribulations of lawn care. I opted for a lawn service because
of my lack of understanding and a desire to not lose the lawn in the
first year.

Before reading this thread I have come to the realization that
professional lawncare is a tread mill (I stop short of calling it a scam,
due to limited experience, but I will say I am very doubtful of the
methods and process).

EUREKA! Intelligent life as a novice gardener! Congratulations on having
an
open mind and using the brains.


The guy has come twice now and done his step 2 of a 5 step program.

Oh, they're doing 5 steps now? Wow. I remember when they started with
this lie
and how the marketeers sold it across the nation. I can tell you without
any
problem at all that, this 5 step crap is a scam.

Everywhere he fertilized has brown patch, which tells me he may have done
something wrong and upset the balance (it also has been wet and humid for
a few weeks now, so I could be off base). In any case, the cracks in my
faux peace of mind are beginning. I have a 6 month old daughter. I want
her to play on the lawn as I did when I was a kid and I am just worried
about those little colored pellets that lie around on the thatch. I would
love to understand how I can organically maintain my lawn. If organic is
the wrong word, then I simply do not want to dump sacks of godknows on my
lawn for godknowwhy reasons.

I don't know where yo alive or what kind of grass you have, but I am more
than
willing to give you a step by step method of taking care of turf which
will
rival any other method the lawn jockeys can come up with. Where do you
live,
what kind of grass? Start there.

Can you maintain a beautiful lawn (forget beautiful, let's leave it at
"lawn") sans Scott's 4 step program?

Gary

Oh for goodness sake YES! The key points in management of turf is that
you
water properly, aerate properly, mow properly and fertilize properly.

The moment you tell us where you live (no not the address!) I guarantee
myself
and ten other people can easily tell you how to do it.

V

"animaux" wrote in message
...

(...)

I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone here would say there is no
use
in a gardening or on a lawn care for some synthesized chemicals, and
I'm
very sure that everyone is aware that just because it's organic, it
doesn't do all good, and nothing but good.

(...)

Raising hand! You are not accurate about that. Not in my case. I
don't use
any pesticides at all.


Let me make sure you're raising your hand to the right thing. When I
said, "but I don't think anyone here would say there is no use
in a gardening or on a lawn care for some synthesized chemicals," I was
not speaking of the choice you make for your own garden. If you're
disagreeing with me, you'd be saying you don't believe that synthesized
chemicals have any use for anyone, anywhere in the entire disciplines of
gardening or lawn care.

If you meant to disagree with me so globally, then I stand corrected. I
would also then say I respect your choice for your garden, and I believe
you are generally in a good place. But I'd also have to call you an
extremist if you're saying that there is no one anywhere that has a
valid use for a synthesized chemical in caring for their lawn and
garden. And I'd have to point out that I find fundamental problems with
any extremist view, even if I agree with most of the doctrine.

Certainly my goal is to be as organic as practically possible. And I
respect those that personally go beyond what's practical because it's
what they believe is best, and advocate their beliefs. I don't respect
people who tell me that there is no room for dissenting opinion in the
ranks.

Mother Teresa didn't expect everyone to be just like her and do
everything she did.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug:
Support me at: http://www.holzemville.com/mall/