The safety of roundup according to WHOM?
people who use it but have no idea of what the side effects might be and how long it
takes for them to appear?
or the biochemists that work for Monsanto?
Logic, not quasi nothin'
Monsanto says its products are safe.
Monsanto has lied in the past.
How do we trust that Monsanto is now telling the truth? What evidence is there?

It is like somebody asking about buying daffodil bulbs from Michigan Bulbs.
X says she got tulips and they were crap. Other people have had lousy luck with
Michigan Bulbs.
You come on and bitch cause the original person was asking about daffodils, not
tulips.

BTW, you are not a list god, you dont decide what is on topic or off topic on this
newsgroup. Ingrid


"Dave Gower" wrote:
As I said in another reply, such social agendas are off-topic for this
newsgroup. The safety of Round-up is a valid topic, but can only be answered
by reference to personal experience and bio-chemistry. Not being a
bio-chemist, I quote my personal experience. Bio-chemists say it is safe
WHEN USED AS RECOMMENDED.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in
:

OK.. this is how the thread developed

1. is roundup safe?
2. probably not, it is made by Monsanto who does not put consumers
first, monsanto, you know, the people made PCBs since 1930 and still
is fighting having to clean up after themselves, the ones poisoned a
whole town, hid what they knew, when they knew it.

and 3., who spent 10 million on lawyers to not to have to pay a few
million in damage rewards to the ppl who lost their health and maybe
relatives because of the poisoning.

Ursa..

--
==================================
Ursa (Major)/ \ *-*-* *
___________/====================================\_______*-*______

"Dave Gower" wrote in
:

Not being a
bio-chemist, I quote my personal experience. Bio-chemists say it is safe
WHEN USED AS RECOMMENDED.


You must be a happy man, Dave, if such ignorance gives you peace of mind.

Ursa..

--
==================================
Ursa (Major)/ \ *-*-* *
___________/====================================\_______*-*______

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:46:23 -0400, "Dave Gower"
wrote:

Bio-chemists say it is safe
WHEN USED AS RECOMMENDED.
And pathologists with vested intersts.....

wrote

1. is roundup safe?
2. probably not, it is made by Monsanto who does not put consumers first,
monsanto,
you know, the people made PCBs since 1930

Most of us are not that stupid. We know that an issue from another time,
about another chemical, when the company was run by different managers,
faced different laws, was operating with different scientific knowledge,
cannot be used to answer a question about a garden chemical sold in 2003.

You bunch are obviously abysmally ignorant of how corporations work (and of
course you would be if you relied on 60 Minutes for your information).
Monsanto and other primary producers do not normally sell directly to the
public. They sell to other companies; wholesalers, manufacturers, exporters,
processors. As such they are dealing with hard-nosed and often very savvy
purchasing managers and agents. Such professionals ask tough and precise
scientific questions about the safety and other characteristics of the
materials they purchase. This is especially true of wholesalers, whose
employers directly face legal consequences for selling harmful substances.

Another elementary bit of information. Companies cannot "lie", or indeed
make utterances of any type. Only people can do that. The fact that you
anthropomorphise an abstract legal entity in such a way shows how infantile
your delusions are. But even using your words, any company that "lied" to
professional purchasers would be dead in a year.

"Salty Thumb" wrote

Do not grow vegetables from soil imported from Anniston. Use discretion
when using soil or water from or near former PCB chemical factories. Be
aware of ecological indicators of high PCB whether they are thin bird
shell eggs or incontinent pets. Polychlorinated biphenyls are persistent
chemicals that do not readily degrade through natural processes but are
readily distributed by the same.

Fine but how does this relate to "current discussion" on this newsgroup? I
just did a Google search and since 1998 not one person has posted asking
about the wisdom of using PCBs in his or her garden.

You radical environmentalists are truly bankrupt.

"Tom Jaszewski" wrote

And pathologists with vested intersts.....

References?

"David J Bockman" wrote

The fact that Roundup is safe if used as directed and the fact that
Monsanto
appears to have destoyed the ecosystem of a small town are not mutually
exclusive.

And completely off-topic to this newsgroup. However if I unfairly lumped you
in with Ratgirl I do apologize, but you have to admit you invited it.

"Dave Gower" wrote in
:


"Salty Thumb" wrote

Do not grow vegetables from soil imported from Anniston. Use
discretion when using soil or water from or near former PCB chemical
factories. Be aware of ecological indicators of high PCB whether
they are thin bird shell eggs or incontinent pets. Polychlorinated
biphenyls are persistent chemicals that do not readily degrade
through natural processes but are readily distributed by the same.

Fine but how does this relate to "current discussion" on this
newsgroup? I just did a Google search and since 1998 not one person
has posted asking about the wisdom of using PCBs in his or her garden.

It relates to the current discussion because I am reiterating the point
made in the link of the initial post of the presence of PCBs in the soil of
Anniston. Do you know what gardeners use soil for, Dave? Now if there
isn't any further interest in discussing that fact, then the thread should
end here. If there are any tangental lines of interest, then they may
proceed at the discretion of the users of the group. If you find the
tangentals to be woefully off-topic, I suggest you deal that problem
locally, viz. learn how to operate your newsreading software; or if you
feel the need, complain to the address listed in the "X-Complaints-To:"
header of the offending post(s).

I seriously doubt anyone here needs you or anyone else to police the group
by insisting on what is or what is not 'on-topic'.

If anybody disagrees with that, feel free to voice you support by adding
"Dave Gower You Are My Hero Thank You For Saving Me From The Evil Crazy
Radical Lunatic Organic Hippie Anti-business Did I Mention Evil Nutjob
Salinated Disembodied Finger Crackpot Crazy Rodent-loving Freak-shows!"

You radical environmentalists are truly bankrupt.

Wow, you are ssssssooooooooo smart!

-- Salty

P.S. Hi Paghat.

"Dave Gower" wrote in
:


wrote

1. is roundup safe?
2. probably not, it is made by Monsanto who does not put consumers
first, monsanto, you know, the people made PCBs since 1930

Most of us are not that stupid. We know that an issue from another
time, about another chemical, when the company was run by different
managers, faced different laws, was operating with different
scientific knowledge, cannot be used to answer a question about a
garden chemical sold in 2003.

Ooh that has the word 'garden' in it, I'll let it slide.

You bunch are obviously abysmally ignorant of how corporations work
(and of course you would be if you relied on 60 Minutes for your
information). Monsanto and other primary producers do not normally
sell directly to the public. They sell to other companies;
wholesalers, manufacturers, exporters, processors. As such they are
dealing with hard-nosed and often very savvy purchasing managers and
agents. Such professionals ask tough and precise scientific questions
about the safety and other characteristics of the materials they
purchase. This is especially true of wholesalers, whose employers
directly face legal consequences for selling harmful substances.

Newsgroup cop says "What the hell does this have to do with gardening?"

Another elementary bit of information. Companies cannot "lie", or
indeed make utterances of any type. Only people can do that. The fact
that you anthropomorphise an abstract legal entity in such a way shows
how infantile your delusions are. But even using your words, any
company that "lied" to professional purchasers would be dead in a
year.

Newsgroup cop says "What the hell does this have to do with gardening?"

In article , Salty Thumb
wrote:

"Dave Gower" wrote in
:


"Salty Thumb" wrote

Do not grow vegetables from soil imported from Anniston. Use
discretion when using soil or water from or near former PCB chemical
factories. Be aware of ecological indicators of high PCB whether
they are thin bird shell eggs or incontinent pets. Polychlorinated
biphenyls are persistent chemicals that do not readily degrade
through natural processes but are readily distributed by the same.

Fine but how does this relate to "current discussion" on this
newsgroup? I just did a Google search and since 1998 not one person
has posted asking about the wisdom of using PCBs in his or her garden.

It relates to the current discussion because I am reiterating the point
made in the link of the initial post of the presence of PCBs in the soil of
Anniston. Do you know what gardeners use soil for, Dave? Now if there
isn't any further interest in discussing that fact, then the thread should
end here. If there are any tangental lines of interest, then they may
proceed at the discretion of the users of the group. If you find the
tangentals to be woefully off-topic, I suggest you deal that problem
locally, viz. learn how to operate your newsreading software; or if you
feel the need, complain to the address listed in the "X-Complaints-To:"
header of the offending post(s).

The real point Gower makes is only that it doesn't matter to him how much
harm a company is known to have done past or present, he will always find
a way to stick up for corporate interests cuz that's his god until an even
skankier one comes along. Having first taken the untennable stance that
"RoundUp is good" his answer to all Monsanto's history of appalling
destructive criminal behavior against humanity & the environment will
always be "RoundUp is good." Nothing else matters. Cuz RoundUp is good.
When eventually it's on the junkpile of stuff that killed a lot of people
& no longer legal to sell (like so many past Monsanto bonanza products)
then whatever is next in line to be "safe" & highly profitable will be
good enough to keep on excusing Monsanto.

I seriously doubt anyone here needs you or anyone else to police the group
by insisting on what is or what is not 'on-topic'.

If anybody disagrees with that, feel free to voice you support by adding
"Dave Gower You Are My Hero Thank You For Saving Me From The Evil Crazy
Radical Lunatic Organic Hippie Anti-business Did I Mention Evil Nutjob
Salinated Disembodied Finger Crackpot Crazy Rodent-loving Freak-shows!"

You radical environmentalists are truly bankrupt.

Wow, you are ssssssooooooooo smart!

But by "bankrupt" Gower likely means only that Monsanto is getting rich
killing people, while envionmentalists' unwillingness to kill people means
most of 'em will die poor. It's a Monsanto "neener" -- sure they killed &
injured people & places, but in this worldview, the only thing that isn't
bankupt is the highest possible profitability.

-paghat the ratgirl


-- Salty

P.S. Hi Paghat.

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat wrote:
In article , "Dave Gower"

I will continue to point out your ignorant, agenda-driven drivel as much as
I want.


Except, of course, when the agenda is driven by Monsanto; when decade by
decade their "previous" agenda of "facts" turned out to be all lies, & the
critics turned out to be all right, & you seriously believe a company that
did nothing but lie for fifty years is going to be telling the truth THIS
time...

But how does hijacking a gardening discussion and ranting endlessly about
the evils of Monsanto do any good?

Seriously,
Bob

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zxcvbob wrote in
:

paghat wrote:
In article , "Dave Gower"

I will continue to point out your ignorant, agenda-driven drivel as
much as I want.


Except, of course, when the agenda is driven by Monsanto; when decade
by decade their "previous" agenda of "facts" turned out to be all
lies, & the critics turned out to be all right, & you seriously
believe a company that did nothing but lie for fifty years is going
to be telling the truth THIS time...

But how does hijacking a gardening discussion and ranting endlessly
about the evils of Monsanto do any good?

Seriously,
Bob



What gardening discussion was hijacked? To be sure all this Monsanto
bashing has got to be tiresome for those not interested, but seems to be
me all of it has been contained a small number of threads which are
easily ignored or killed. Nobody's popped into a thread about "why did
my tomatoes die?" and said "because Monsanto killed it" or "why are
squirrels eating all my nuts?" ... "because Monsanto made them tasty."

As for it being good or bad, that depends on whether you believe Monsanto
or not. There is no longer any Garden of Eden.

- Salty

I am somewhat perplexed by his thesis that Monsanto is off topic for a
gardening group. How so when they are a MAJOR supplier of Agricultural
and Home Garden Chemicals and have a lousy record of public
stewardship and forthrightness? I would think those would be very MUCH
to the fore in any discussion of gardening. After all gardening isn't
just planting and picking, it is everything ELSE involved in producing
our little slice of heaven on earth. And like it or not Chemicals are
often a large part of the average gardeners repertoire. As such it is
very MUCH on topic to discuss them and the history around some of
their producers, particularly when that is a history of deception and
out right lies on the safety of those producers products..


Dave



On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 01:25:05 GMT, Salty Thumb
wrote:

zxcvbob wrote in
:

paghat wrote:
In article , "Dave Gower"

I will continue to point out your ignorant, agenda-driven drivel as
much as I want.


Except, of course, when the agenda is driven by Monsanto; when decade
by decade their "previous" agenda of "facts" turned out to be all
lies, & the critics turned out to be all right, & you seriously
believe a company that did nothing but lie for fifty years is going
to be telling the truth THIS time...

But how does hijacking a gardening discussion and ranting endlessly
about the evils of Monsanto do any good?

Seriously,
Bob



What gardening discussion was hijacked? To be sure all this Monsanto
bashing has got to be tiresome for those not interested, but seems to be
me all of it has been contained a small number of threads which are
easily ignored or killed. Nobody's popped into a thread about "why did
my tomatoes die?" and said "because Monsanto killed it" or "why are
squirrels eating all my nuts?" ... "because Monsanto made them tasty."

As for it being good or bad, that depends on whether you believe Monsanto
or not. There is no longer any Garden of Eden.

- Salty

Dave Fouchey, WA4EMR
http://photos.yahoo.com/davefouchey
Southeastern Lower Michigan
42° 35' 20'' N,
82° 58' 37'' W
GMT Offset: -5
Time Zone: Eastern

"Dave Gower" expounded:

It's got nothing to do with "believing" Monsanto. The point here is that the
article quoted is irrelevant to "recent discussions" on this newsgroup.
Roundup has no PCBs. The article was about PCBs.

And you've missed the whole point here. You are concentrating on a
minute point, when the major point is....we can't and shouldn't
believe what Monsanto says. About anything. Roundup or PCBs.

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************