20 years ago, I worked for two weeks removing grass from a new garden using
a fork and a number of custom-made implements of sifting and destruction. I
just had a 30x30 area tilled, and this time, I'm ready to try another way of
killing the grass that's mixed into the soil. The guy who tilled it did a
great job. He ran the tiller in various orientations until the sod was very
nicely chopped up. But, you KNOW some of it'll be back in April when I want
to plant lettuce.

So: I've seen a number of people mention spreading newspaper. Sheets of
plastic are easy, but the newspaper idea is fascinating. But, how's it kept
in place? Just toss soil on top of it? We're talking a lot of newspaper
here - I'd need lots of bricks. :-) I realize this is an unbelievably
simplistic question, but I have limited time this weekend. No time for
experiments, and I'd rather not use plastic if I don't have to.

In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

20 years ago, I worked for two weeks removing grass from a new garden using
a fork and a number of custom-made implements of sifting and destruction. I
just had a 30x30 area tilled, and this time, I'm ready to try another way of
killing the grass that's mixed into the soil. The guy who tilled it did a
great job. He ran the tiller in various orientations until the sod was very
nicely chopped up. But, you KNOW some of it'll be back in April when I want
to plant lettuce.

So: I've seen a number of people mention spreading newspaper. Sheets of
plastic are easy, but the newspaper idea is fascinating. But, how's it kept
in place? Just toss soil on top of it? We're talking a lot of newspaper
here - I'd need lots of bricks. :-) I realize this is an unbelievably
simplistic question, but I have limited time this weekend. No time for
experiments, and I'd rather not use plastic if I don't have to.

You can cover the layers of newspaper in a thin top-coating of completely
composted manure. This has the physical appearance of topsoil, but is
sterile so it will not encourage seedlings. Because composted steer manure
is nearly black, it also heats up the ground so that even seeds that might
otherwise wait several months to germinate will be cooked to death.

If the paper is not completely covered, any that is exposed to the air
will dry out swiftly so that worms won't be eating it over time, but when
underneath a layer of dampened inexpensive steer manure compost, the worms
turn even the layers of newspaper (or cardboard) into nutrients in as
little as three months, & nothing that was smothered & heated underneath
it will return.

Also, if there are shrubs or tree saplings you would want to plant in the
area right away, there's no reason not to cut a hole through the
smothering paper & plant a couple big things right away.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

10-20 layers of paper (or a single layer of corrugated cardboard) is all you
need. To keep it down I usually spread compost or mulch, but you could use
straw, pine needles, whatever is handy.

Dave

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
20 years ago, I worked for two weeks removing grass from a new garden
using
a fork and a number of custom-made implements of sifting and destruction.
I
just had a 30x30 area tilled, and this time, I'm ready to try another way
of
killing the grass that's mixed into the soil. The guy who tilled it did a
great job. He ran the tiller in various orientations until the sod was
very
nicely chopped up. But, you KNOW some of it'll be back in April when I
want
to plant lettuce.

So: I've seen a number of people mention spreading newspaper. Sheets of
plastic are easy, but the newspaper idea is fascinating. But, how's it
kept
in place? Just toss soil on top of it? We're talking a lot of newspaper
here - I'd need lots of bricks. :-) I realize this is an unbelievably
simplistic question, but I have limited time this weekend. No time for
experiments, and I'd rather not use plastic if I don't have to.

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

20 years ago, I worked for two weeks removing grass from a new garden
using
a fork and a number of custom-made implements of sifting and
destruction. I
just had a 30x30 area tilled, and this time, I'm ready to try another
way of
killing the grass that's mixed into the soil. The guy who tilled it did
a
great job. He ran the tiller in various orientations until the sod was
very
nicely chopped up. But, you KNOW some of it'll be back in April when I
want
to plant lettuce.

So: I've seen a number of people mention spreading newspaper. Sheets of
plastic are easy, but the newspaper idea is fascinating. But, how's it
kept
in place? Just toss soil on top of it? We're talking a lot of newspaper
here - I'd need lots of bricks. :-) I realize this is an unbelievably
simplistic question, but I have limited time this weekend. No time for
experiments, and I'd rather not use plastic if I don't have to.

You can cover the layers of newspaper in a thin top-coating of completely
composted manure. This has the physical appearance of topsoil, but is
sterile so it will not encourage seedlings. Because composted steer manure
is nearly black, it also heats up the ground so that even seeds that might
otherwise wait several months to germinate will be cooked to death.

If the paper is not completely covered, any that is exposed to the air
will dry out swiftly so that worms won't be eating it over time, but when
underneath a layer of dampened inexpensive steer manure compost, the worms
turn even the layers of newspaper (or cardboard) into nutrients in as
little as three months, & nothing that was smothered & heated underneath
it will return.

Also, if there are shrubs or tree saplings you would want to plant in the
area right away, there's no reason not to cut a hole through the
smothering paper & plant a couple big things right away.

-paghat the ratgirl

Does gender matter? In 20 years, I've never seen steer manure offered around
here. But, there's plenty of bagged, composted cow manure. And, if it was
earlier in the year, I could've gotten plenty of horse manure (from the
mounted police stables) and composted it.

I'm assuming it has to be composted because the worms will turn their noses
up at it otherwise. Is that correct?

In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

20 years ago, I worked for two weeks removing grass from a new garden
using
a fork and a number of custom-made implements of sifting and
destruction. I
just had a 30x30 area tilled, and this time, I'm ready to try another
way of
killing the grass that's mixed into the soil. The guy who tilled it did
a
great job. He ran the tiller in various orientations until the sod was
very
nicely chopped up. But, you KNOW some of it'll be back in April when I
want
to plant lettuce.

So: I've seen a number of people mention spreading newspaper. Sheets of
plastic are easy, but the newspaper idea is fascinating. But, how's it
kept
in place? Just toss soil on top of it? We're talking a lot of newspaper
here - I'd need lots of bricks. :-) I realize this is an unbelievably
simplistic question, but I have limited time this weekend. No time for
experiments, and I'd rather not use plastic if I don't have to.

You can cover the layers of newspaper in a thin top-coating of completely
composted manure. This has the physical appearance of topsoil, but is
sterile so it will not encourage seedlings. Because composted steer manure
is nearly black, it also heats up the ground so that even seeds that might
otherwise wait several months to germinate will be cooked to death.

If the paper is not completely covered, any that is exposed to the air
will dry out swiftly so that worms won't be eating it over time, but when
underneath a layer of dampened inexpensive steer manure compost, the worms
turn even the layers of newspaper (or cardboard) into nutrients in as
little as three months, & nothing that was smothered & heated underneath
it will return.

Also, if there are shrubs or tree saplings you would want to plant in the
area right away, there's no reason not to cut a hole through the
smothering paper & plant a couple big things right away.

-paghat the ratgirl

Does gender matter? In 20 years, I've never seen steer manure offered around
here. But, there's plenty of bagged, composted cow manure. And, if it was
earlier in the year, I could've gotten plenty of horse manure (from the
mounted police stables) and composted it.

I'm assuming it has to be composted because the worms will turn their noses
up at it otherwise. Is that correct?

I saw a table once that broke it down into which is best for the rather
small nitrogen component. If memory hasn't failed me, in order of
percentages it was dairy cow, then feedlot steer, then chicken (even
though chicken manure compost three times as much, & less likely to have
unwanted salts in it); but they all have the same capacity to induce the
soil's microorganisms to produce nitrogen & when used as a topcoating it
for the texture & appearance; a top mulch of straw or woochips is to me
very ugly, but black crumbling compost looks like a rich forest loam. My
recollection is that horse manure had the highest nitrogen count of all,
but that's not available as a commercial product round here. I've gotten
free llama poo form time to time, but not to use as a topcoating because
it's still just pellets of shit when I get it.

In my county, steer manure is a standard product & by far the cheapest
compost to buy, so I use it as a surface mulch, but I use a much more
expensive organic compost (plus my home-made stuff) when mixing compost
into soil. Chicken or dairy cow manure compost would be as good as a
surface mulch, but it would cost more. The reason I don't use my own
home-made compost for a surface mulch is because it is never as crumbly &
easy to spread thinly as commercially prepared steer manure.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

Doug Kanter wrote:
...I could've gotten plenty of horse manure (from the
mounted police stables) and composted it.

I'm assuming it has to be composted because the worms will turn their noses
up at it otherwise. Is that correct?



The worms will like horse manure any old way. The problem with not
composting it is that, unlike cows, that digest their food fairly
completely, horses are just large shredders and the stuff goes through
only minimally changed. It therefore contains lots of weed seeds, which
the composting process will kill (if it is done properly).

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
20 years ago, I worked for two weeks removing grass from a new
garden using
a fork and a number of custom-made implements of sifting and
destruction. I
just had a 30x30 area tilled, and this time, I'm ready to try
another way of
killing the grass that's mixed into the soil. The guy who
tilled it did a
great job. He ran the tiller in various orientations until the
sod was very
nicely chopped up. But, you KNOW some of it'll be back in April
when I want
to plant lettuce.

So: I've seen a number of people mention spreading newspaper.
Sheets of
plastic are easy, but the newspaper idea is fascinating. But,
how's it kept
in place? Just toss soil on top of it? We're talking a lot of
newspaper
here - I'd need lots of bricks. :-) I realize this is an
unbelievably
simplistic question, but I have limited time this weekend. No
time for
experiments, and I'd rather not use plastic if I don't have to.

One alternative is to re-till it every few weeks untill seed
sprouting slows.

It would have been much easier to use a sod cutter and remove the
sod and accompanying seeds before tilling.

Bob

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ...



Does gender matter? In 20 years, I've never seen steer manure offered around
here. But, there's plenty of bagged, composted cow manure. And, if it was
earlier in the year, I could've gotten plenty of horse manure (from the
mounted police stables) and composted it.

According to various places on the web and at least one of my books:

Steer manure has more salt (the animals get salt licks to encourage
them to drink to bring their weight up) and more weed seeds. Cow
manure, specifically pit-washed dairy manure, is supposed to be better
for gardening in general.

Crayfish

Bob wrote:

One alternative is to re-till it every few weeks untill seed
sprouting slows.

Frequent tilling would totally destroy the soil structure, and if done
to the same deapth each time would result in powder above the line, and
hardpan below the line. Soil shouldn't be tilled more than twice a year.
Once would be better.

It would have been much easier to use a sod cutter and remove the
sod and accompanying seeds before tilling.

Maybe. Maybe not. The resprouting is likely to be coming from the
remaining roots. A well established turf may have roots going deeper
than any sod cutter is going to go. Taking it out that deep may have
meant hauling in soil to replace it. Also, after the sod decomposes, the
soil will be more fertile than it would be if all of that was
scraped-off, and hauled away.


Let me toss in my idea: Go with the multiple layers of newspaper with
bovine manure holding it down, and also use it as a dumping place for
leaves from the trees. By the time the leaves finish falling in my yard,
I'll have built-up a good 4-6 inch layer of shredded leaves over my
vegetable garden. A few weeks before planting time, I till it all in.
When I started three years ago, the vegetable garden area was as hard as
concrete. I almost busted a commercial-grade tiller trying to break it
up. I couldn't even get a spade into it. Today, the soil is so loamy
that if I walk directly on it, my shoe sinks in to the top of the toe.
The tomatoes loved it!

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: Black & Decker Landscaping Tools & Parts:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker

On 10/22/04 9:24 AM, in article , "Doug
Kanter" wrote:

20 years ago, I worked for two weeks removing grass from a new garden using
a fork and a number of custom-made implements of sifting and destruction. I
just had a 30x30 area tilled, and this time, I'm ready to try another way of
killing the grass that's mixed into the soil. The guy who tilled it did a
great job. He ran the tiller in various orientations until the sod was very
nicely chopped up. But, you KNOW some of it'll be back in April when I want
to plant lettuce.

So: I've seen a number of people mention spreading newspaper. Sheets of
plastic are easy, but the newspaper idea is fascinating. But, how's it kept
in place? Just toss soil on top of it? We're talking a lot of newspaper
here - I'd need lots of bricks. :-) I realize this is an unbelievably
simplistic question, but I have limited time this weekend. No time for
experiments, and I'd rather not use plastic if I don't have to.


Hi Doug
I have read many of the excellent suggestions made by others. I agree to
some extent with some of them and others I have not decided. My first
assessment (#1) will make you unhappy.
1. Grass is a determined plant. The only way to ensure it won't be in your
garden next year is to dig it out. I tried rototilling it and it just came
back again and again and again.
2. What you should have done is...are you ready? Remove it totally. How?
Well you do it like removing sod. One foot 'squared' at a time. You take out
only the top 4 inches or so. And you compost them (Put them into a big
pile)...why? Cause the top layers have the most nutritious soil and that's
where the worms are. After the grass has died you put it back on the garden.
3. Now what you have is a mess...a mess of grass ready to go next year.
4. I'm not sure how plastic or paper will help. I am assuming you are in the
USA and unless you are in the southern states lettuce will not grow. So...
5. Pre plant your seed indoors and then transplant them when they are
bigger. While they are growing (indoors) disturb any greenery you see in the
garden area...that will be the grass growing again.
6. After transplanting your seedlings continue to disturb the roots of any
greenery growing. Eventually they will be gone...eventually! I know. It does
work.
7. Now you know as much as I do about removing sod for a garden.
Regards,
NN

"Bob" expounded:

One alternative is to re-till it every few weeks untill seed
sprouting slows.

There will be weed seeds anyways, you'll never get them to all sprout.
As Warren said, aggressive tilling will ruin the soil structure.

It would have been much easier to use a sod cutter and remove the
sod and accompanying seeds before tilling.

By tilling in the sod you gain the benefit of the organic matter. I
think the newspaper idea is the best way to get rid of the rest of the
grass, especially when you have the time.

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

"Bob" wrote in message
news:zNhed.172709$He1.152749@attbi_s01...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
20 years ago, I worked for two weeks removing grass from a new
garden using
a fork and a number of custom-made implements of sifting and
destruction. I
just had a 30x30 area tilled, and this time, I'm ready to try
another way of
killing the grass that's mixed into the soil. The guy who
tilled it did a
great job. He ran the tiller in various orientations until the
sod was very
nicely chopped up. But, you KNOW some of it'll be back in April
when I want
to plant lettuce.

So: I've seen a number of people mention spreading newspaper.
Sheets of
plastic are easy, but the newspaper idea is fascinating. But,
how's it kept
in place? Just toss soil on top of it? We're talking a lot of
newspaper
here - I'd need lots of bricks. :-) I realize this is an
unbelievably
simplistic question, but I have limited time this weekend. No
time for
experiments, and I'd rather not use plastic if I don't have to.

One alternative is to re-till it every few weeks untill seed
sprouting slows.

It would have been much easier to use a sod cutter and remove the
sod and accompanying seeds before tilling.

Bob



Yeah....I heard about the sod cutter idea, but hiring someone for that was
very expensive, and nobody rents them nearby.

In article , Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

The message
from (LouiseW) contains these words:

Steer manure has more salt (the animals get salt licks to encourage
them to drink to bring their weight up)

The licks given to cattle are mineral salts such as magnesium, an
essential part of herbivore diet, nothing to do with making them drink
more. Mineral salts and liquid intake are processed by the kidneys to
the bladder and eliminated in urine. Even by dairy cows.

Louise erred only in her statement as to the source of the greater number
of sundry mineral salts in feedlot-steer manure. The salts come from the
bottom-of-the-barrel garbagy fattening feeds given to steers to maximize
their weight before slaughter (for the same reason that farm-raised fish
have more mercury than wild -- its from the unfit-for-consumption feeds
made from all sorts of garbage). Dairy cows aren't forcefed the same kinds
of low-grade feeds so don't get the sundry pollutants in their turds. The
usual gardening assessment, however, is that the higher percentage of
salts in composted steer manure is still such a small percentage that it
wouldn't hurt even salt-sensitive plants, plus it washes through the soil
after a couple of hard rains.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ...

So: I've seen a number of people mention spreading newspaper. Sheets of
plastic are easy, but the newspaper idea is fascinating. But, how's it kept
in place? Just toss soil on top of it? We're talking a lot of newspaper
here - I'd need lots of bricks. :-) I realize this is an unbelievably
simplistic question, but I have limited time this weekend. No time for
experiments, and I'd rather not use plastic if I don't have to.

I find cardboard to be more practical. The box of a large appliance
will cover some 50 sq ft, so you will need less bricks. The loft of my
garage is always full of cardboard, for that purpose. On the other
hand, I would never cover the plot entirely with cardboard, I would
use the chance to establish pathways with bricks or cinder blocks at
the edges, with plastic covered with gravel in the path itself. You
also want to establish a mowing strip around the garden, same method
(plastic and gravel). grass is one tough garden weed and it will come
back in via rhizomes if there is less than a foot and a half from lawn
to garden.

Also, you don't put the cardobard down now, when nothing grows,
because that will fail. Once the paths are in place, you mound manure
on the beds and retire for the winter. You wait until just before you
plant your garden, in April or May, so that you will be weed free for
most of the season and will effectively kill all seeds that did
germinate. Say you plant one bed in April with lettuce and chard (this
are Michigan times), you cover it with cardboard, punch holes through,
and plant the plants. In May and June you will do the same with the
other beds. Sorry, but the first year garden will not accept direct
seeding.