Hi All,

I just got a beautiful pahalenopsis. It is in bloom and has buds.
Some of the buds are turning brown. Is my house too dry? Would a
humidifier help. Please tell me what I can do to save the other buds.

Thank You!

On 8 Nov 2005 07:58:30 -0800, wrote:

Hi All,

I just got a beautiful pahalenopsis. It is in bloom and has buds.
Some of the buds are turning brown. Is my house too dry? Would a
humidifier help. Please tell me what I can do to save the other buds.

Thank You!

The problem is more apt to be that you have fruit close to the
plant. The ethylene gas that ripens fruit also ripens buds.

You said you just got the plant... The change from a growers
location to yours could cause a few buds to drop. If you got it
from a grocery - they often have the plants next to the fruit
stand. They are also not known for proper care.

To prolong the flowers - keep the light lower and be sure the
plant NEVER stands in water. It does want to be slightly on the
dry side when you water, but the pot should never stand in a
saucer of water. When in doubt with an orchid wait another day
to water. More are killed by being watered too often than by
drying out.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Another thought to add, because I'm guilty of it too. Overzealous
misting. It causes problems for two of my orchids - Neostylis Lou
Sneary, and Cochleanthes amazonica.
Bob Campoli

Susan Erickson wrote:
The problem is more apt to be that you have fruit close to the
plant. The ethylene gas that ripens fruit also ripens buds.

I've always kept apples, bananas, melons, peaches, pears, etc. far away
from my plants, but in recent weeks I've suddenly experienced serious
bud blasting on many of my orchids. I've never had this happen before.

Last month before the first frost I picked all the remaining tomatoes in
my garden and set them to ripen on a kitchen counter that happens to be
right next my orchid shelves. Until a few moments ago I always thought
of tomatoes as vegetables: after all, one grows them in a vegetable
garden. Susan's post just made me realize my terrible blunder:
tomatoes aren't vegetables -- they are fruit that produce ethylene to ripen.

I'm posting this so others hopefully won't repeat my stupid mistake.

John (I can't believe I did that!) DeGood

John DeGood wrote:

Susan Erickson wrote:

The problem is more apt to be that you have fruit close to the
plant. The ethylene gas that ripens fruit also ripens buds.


I've always kept apples, bananas, melons, peaches, pears, etc. far away
from my plants, but in recent weeks I've suddenly experienced serious
bud blasting on many of my orchids. I've never had this happen before.

Last month before the first frost I picked all the remaining tomatoes in
my garden and set them to ripen on a kitchen counter that happens to be
right next my orchid shelves. Until a few moments ago I always thought
of tomatoes as vegetables: after all, one grows them in a vegetable
garden. Susan's post just made me realize my terrible blunder: tomatoes
aren't vegetables -- they are fruit that produce ethylene to ripen.

I'm posting this so others hopefully won't repeat my stupid mistake.

John (I can't believe I did that!) DeGood

Well, you've finally settled that "vegetable or fruit" debate once and
for all! (not that I ever had any doubts)

You know... I have often brought in dozens of ripening tomatoes in the
fall (not this year) and they were stored a few feet away from some of
my orchids. I never gave it a thought before now either. Did I
experience bud blast? Not really. Maybe on some Dendrobiums, but that
was on 2 unhealthy plants that didn't have the energy to bloom anyway.
Do tomatoes produce even close to as much ethylene as apples? I doubt
it. Do they produce enough to blast orchid buds? I have no idea but I
wouldn't be surprised!

Steve

run for hills and don't look back!

I grew tomatoes in my greenhouse last winter as an indicator plant for
ethylene. Tomato plants are highly sensitive to ethylene and exhibit a
characteristic wilting (epinasty) which make them valuable as an indicator
plant for this problem. The leaf petiole of an epinastic tomato leaf is bent
downward, like it is wilted, however it is completely turgid to the touch
and the root system is healthy.

Phalaenopsis are known to be very sensitive to this gas and bud blast is
often the result as
well as premature flower drop, where flowers open that should last for
several months but wilt only after several weeks. Phal flowers themselves
give off this gas in small amounts all during their blooming. I seem to be
under the impression that it is the rapid increase of ethylene in the flower
tissue after pollination that triggers the wilting and subsequent capsule
development in a recently pollinated Phal flower. I don't remember where I
picked up this factoid.

In a greenhouse, not only is this gas produced by the plants themselves and
the
combustion process of our heaters, it is produced during the breakdown of
potting media and as a byproduct of molds and bacteria and plant debris like
leaves and flowers that drop under benches. It is also produced in the
ground under the greenhouse as part of the life-cycle processes of organisms
living in the ground. Even with a properly vented heater, it is possible in
a well sealed greenhouse to see high levels of Ethylene.

From the NC University Agriculture Department comes this article that points
out Cattleya are rather sensitive too.
"Ethylene: Sources, Symptoms, and Prevention for Greenhouse Crops"
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/floriculture/hils/HIL530.pdf

"Cattleya don't like it either
0.04 to 0.1 ppm for 8 hrs "dry sepal"
0.002 to 0.02 ppm for 24 hrs Dying and bleaching of the sepals"

Phals were not mentioned in the table of plants and responses found in this
paper, but IIRC they are similar to the Cattleya numbers: bud blast at 0.002
ppm. IMHO, a very easy number to reach in a greenhouse sealed up tight to
save on winter heating costs.

Al
PS Whitefly generate spontaneously from Tomato plant tissue. The presence
of ethylene increases whitefly production. I can't find the study....but I
know I read it someplace.


"Steve" wrote in message
...
John DeGood wrote:

Susan Erickson wrote:

The problem is more apt to be that you have fruit close to the
plant. The ethylene gas that ripens fruit also ripens buds.


I've always kept apples, bananas, melons, peaches, pears, etc. far away
from my plants, but in recent weeks I've suddenly experienced serious bud
blasting on many of my orchids. I've never had this happen before.

Last month before the first frost I picked all the remaining tomatoes in
my garden and set them to ripen on a kitchen counter that happens to be
right next my orchid shelves. Until a few moments ago I always thought
of tomatoes as vegetables: after all, one grows them in a vegetable
garden. Susan's post just made me realize my terrible blunder: tomatoes
aren't vegetables -- they are fruit that produce ethylene to ripen.

I'm posting this so others hopefully won't repeat my stupid mistake.

John (I can't believe I did that!) DeGood

Well, you've finally settled that "vegetable or fruit" debate once and for
all! (not that I ever had any doubts)

You know... I have often brought in dozens of ripening tomatoes in the
fall (not this year) and they were stored a few feet away from some of my
orchids. I never gave it a thought before now either. Did I experience bud
blast? Not really. Maybe on some Dendrobiums, but that was on 2 unhealthy
plants that didn't have the energy to bloom anyway. Do tomatoes produce
even close to as much ethylene as apples? I doubt it. Do they produce
enough to blast orchid buds? I have no idea but I wouldn't be surprised!

Steve

Can someone tell me what differs between a vegetable and a fruit?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"John DeGood" wrote in message
news
Susan Erickson wrote:
The problem is more apt to be that you have fruit close to the
plant. The ethylene gas that ripens fruit also ripens buds.

I've always kept apples, bananas, melons, peaches, pears, etc. far away
from my plants, but in recent weeks I've suddenly experienced serious bud
blasting on many of my orchids. I've never had this happen before.

Last month before the first frost I picked all the remaining tomatoes in
my garden and set them to ripen on a kitchen counter that happens to be
right next my orchid shelves. Until a few moments ago I always thought of
tomatoes as vegetables: after all, one grows them in a vegetable garden.
Susan's post just made me realize my terrible blunder: tomatoes aren't
vegetables -- they are fruit that produce ethylene to ripen.

I'm posting this so others hopefully won't repeat my stupid mistake.

John (I can't believe I did that!) DeGood

Ray wrote:
Can someone tell me what differs between a vegetable and a fruit?

According to:

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/p...finefruit.html

it took the Supreme Court to resolve this question (see below). :-)

Q: What determines if something is a fruit or vegetable?

A: A vegetable is described as "any herbaceous (non-woody) plant or plant part that is eaten with the main course rather than as a dessert. It usually has a bland taste."

Botanically the fruit is "the developed ovary of a seed plant with its contents and accessory parts, as the pea pod, nut, tomato, pineapple, etc." or " the edible part of a plant developed from a flower with any accessory tissues, as the peach, mulberry, banana, etc."

The confusion arises because the "vegetable" can have "fruit" which are the reproductive parts. The tomato is probably the only legally declared vegetable in a Supreme Court ruling in the early 1900's.

"John DeGood" wrote in message
...
Ray wrote:
Can someone tell me what differs between a vegetable and a fruit?

According to:

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/p...finefruit.html

it took the Supreme Court to resolve this question (see below). :-)

Q: What determines if something is a fruit or vegetable?

A: A vegetable is described as "any herbaceous (non-woody) plant or plant
part that is eaten with the main course rather than as a dessert. It
usually has a bland taste."

Botanically the fruit is "the developed ovary of a seed plant with its
contents and accessory parts, as the pea pod, nut, tomato, pineapple,
etc." or " the edible part of a plant developed from a flower with any
accessory tissues, as the peach, mulberry, banana, etc."

The confusion arises because the "vegetable" can have "fruit" which are
the reproductive parts. The tomato is probably the only legally declared
vegetable in a Supreme Court ruling in the early 1900's.

O the joys of multivocal language! Use of "vegetable" to refer to the
entire plant, as well as to those vegetative organs we eat is precisely what
leads to confusion about whether or not the tomato is a vegetable or fruit.

The botanical definition you give for fruit is fine, but the descriptions
given for a vegetable leaves everything to be desired. In fact, the
statement that a vegetable "usually has a bland taste" is just wrong. Many
of the herbs and spices we routinely use in cooking have wonderful flavours,
That should be obvious since we do routinely use them, and it would be
illogical to use them if they contributed nothing to the flavour of the
foods on which they're used. And then there are beets, ginger, parsnips,
onions, garlic, chives, and radishes. Horseradish is so potent that it is
often 'cut' with turnip, and employees of factories producing prepared
horseradish generally require environment suites because the vapours
produced by grinding horseradish is so potent no-one could function in the
immediate area without protection (or so I am told). And we can't forget
spinach or cabbage. There are so many wonderful vegetables, involving use
of vegetative organs of plants that is, that it seems absurd to claim that
vegetables generally have only a bland flavour.

I see you took the definitions from a site maintained by an educational
institution. That makes it all the more troubling that they would offer
such a worthless description of the word 'vegetable'. What is even worse is
that they offer extension services. But I don't see the educational
institution named. If I knew which institution it is, I'd know not to hire
one of their graduates, except maybe to sweep floors and clean bathrooms. I
can't imagine any competent agronomist describing vegetables that way.
Maybe I expect too much of professional scientists?

In very simple terms, fruits are made of those tissues that develop from the
flower, especially the ovaries, and vegetative organs are all the tissues of
the plant except for those included in the fruit. Or, in terms you could
use with children, fruits are those organs of a plant that contain seeds,
and all the rest are vegetative organs. As a theoretical biologist, I can
find plenty of things to argue about related to this definition, but for
practical purposes, or our purposes, this simplistic definition won't lead
us too far astray. You will realize, of course, that ALL flowering plants
have BOTH vegetative organs and fruits!

Does this help?

Cheers,

Ted

--
R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D.
R & D Decision Support Solutions
http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/
Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making

On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:29:14 -0500 in Al wrote:
Al
PS Whitefly generate spontaneously from Tomato plant tissue. The presence
of ethylene increases whitefly production. I can't find the study....but I
know I read it someplace.

Unsurprisingly whitefly generate spontaneously from Jerusalem Cherries
as well.

I'm now trying to figure out how to keep my jerusalem cherry plants over
the winter without bringing them into the house.




--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

wrote:
Hi All,

I just got a beautiful pahalenopsis. It is in bloom and has buds.
Some of the buds are turning brown. Is my house too dry? Would a
humidifier help. Please tell me what I can do to save the other buds.

Thank You!


This is common in orchids given as gifts. These orchids are purchased
in a store where they are subject to a variety of temperatures and
drafts. These temperature fluctuations cause the bud damage which
generaly appears a few days after the purchase and subsequent gifting.
The new owner then thinks they've done something "wrong" when really its
all the store's fault in improper handling. All that has happened is
that the store placed the plants in a highly visible location to enhance
the sale of the item - usually by the front doors where blasts of cold
air damage the buds.

There's really not much you can do about the plant's handling in the
past. There's really not much you can do to save the previously damaged
buds. The flower spike may branch for you or extend its length and grow
new buds acclimated to your home's conditions. Keep it out of drafts
from heater vents or air conditioning at your home. No, not all plants
have this happen to them. Sometimes you can time your purchase to when
the store gets these delivered so the 'time in store' period is lessened.

K Barrett

On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:29:14 -0500, "Al" wrote:
run for hills and don't look back!

Al
PS Whitefly generate spontaneously from Tomato plant tissue. The presence
of ethylene increases whitefly production. I can't find the study....but I
know I read it someplace.


LOL.. How true it seems. I had to move the tomato plants because
they were growing too close to the door to the gh and produced
such a cloud of whitefly. Of course the next location did not
seem to be visited. I have come to the conclusion that they need
to rotate locations to keep the population down. absolutely no
logic here - just works Nothing I sprayed made a visible
difference in the population.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:29:14 -0500, "Al" wrote:
run for hills and don't look back!

Al
PS Whitefly generate spontaneously from Tomato plant tissue. The
presence
of ethylene increases whitefly production. I can't find the study....but
I
know I read it someplace.


LOL.. How true it seems. I had to move the tomato plants because
they were growing too close to the door to the gh and produced
such a cloud of whitefly. Of course the next location did not
seem to be visited. I have come to the conclusion that they need
to rotate locations to keep the population down. absolutely no

Actually this makes perfect sense. The longer a plant is in one spot, the
greater the likelihood that some harmful organism will make its home on or
near it. This is especially true of annuals, since perrenials generally
have greater defenses against pest organisms. With many crops, one is wise
to rotate them with completely different crops on a regular basis so that
pest organisms that found the first will have nothing to feed on when the
next crop is planted. This is also a factor in selecting crops to be
rotated since some pests can attack more than one plant species. Anyway,
when the pest organism finds nothing to eat, it either dies or leaves the
area depending on the species in question. This is why the whiteflies
diappeared once you moved the tomatoes. And the new site wasn't visited, at
least in numbers you would notice, because the pest has to find the new
location before an infestation can occur. I'll wager, though, that if you
leave the tomatoes in the new location for a while, the white flies will
reappear. Your conclusion is absolutely correct, and applicable to almost
all annual crops.

Cheers,

Ted

--
R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D.
R & D Decision Support Solutions
http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/
Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:08:30 -0700 in Susan Erickson wrote:


LOL.. How true it seems. I had to move the tomato plants because
they were growing too close to the door to the gh and produced
such a cloud of whitefly. Of course the next location did not
seem to be visited. I have come to the conclusion that they need
to rotate locations to keep the population down. absolutely no
logic here - just works Nothing I sprayed made a visible
difference in the population.

Did you try any hot pepper oils?
I'm wondering because the white flies left my evil little hot
peppers alone this year, but went after the sweeter peppers.
And I have more evil hot peppers than I know what to do with :-).

--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

Steve: The scientists/botanists/etc. and all sensible folks agree with
you -- tomatoes are fruit. But here in the US, they are by decree of the
Supreme Court, a vegetable ... which of course doesn't mean they don't
produce ethylene G. Kenni

"Steve" wrote in message
...
John DeGood wrote:

Susan Erickson wrote:

The problem is more apt to be that you have fruit close to the
plant. The ethylene gas that ripens fruit also ripens buds.


I've always kept apples, bananas, melons, peaches, pears, etc. far away
from my plants, but in recent weeks I've suddenly experienced serious bud
blasting on many of my orchids. I've never had this happen before.

Last month before the first frost I picked all the remaining tomatoes in
my garden and set them to ripen on a kitchen counter that happens to be
right next my orchid shelves. Until a few moments ago I always thought
of tomatoes as vegetables: after all, one grows them in a vegetable
garden. Susan's post just made me realize my terrible blunder: tomatoes
aren't vegetables -- they are fruit that produce ethylene to ripen.

I'm posting this so others hopefully won't repeat my stupid mistake.

John (I can't believe I did that!) DeGood

Well, you've finally settled that "vegetable or fruit" debate once and for
all! (not that I ever had any doubts)

You know... I have often brought in dozens of ripening tomatoes in the
fall (not this year) and they were stored a few feet away from some of my
orchids. I never gave it a thought before now either. Did I experience bud
blast? Not really. Maybe on some Dendrobiums, but that was on 2 unhealthy
plants that didn't have the energy to bloom anyway. Do tomatoes produce
even close to as much ethylene as apples? I doubt it. Do they produce
enough to blast orchid buds? I have no idea but I wouldn't be surprised!

Steve