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#16
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Question about irises
"earhtmother" wrote in message oups.com... So how do I go about this efficiently and with relative ease. Pond is 15' x 21', sloping sides to 3.5'approx, 8200 US gal / 31200 L - Dug with EPGM Liner - ZONE 3 so a shop vac seems out of the question. Is there a "good & easy " way or am I screwed. Elaine I fully agree with Jan on the use of a bottom drain, but before I had bottom drains I made my own vac for the pond that you can see at http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondpage4.html. It works well. Just go slow and easy, since the debris can be stirred up fairly easily and then suspends for some time before returning to the bottom. The discharge of the pump can be routed to a secondary filter of quilt batting or the like to remove even more of the fines. |
#17
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Question about irises
From Carol
"Kurt" wrote in message ... In article , "Reel McKoi" wrote: I think you're "screwed." Our largest pond is 2000 and unless we drain it down and remove all grunge the filter misses it clouds the water and filters almost daily. What we do is remove the old bird-net, drain it down to the largest koi's dorsal fin, net them out and drain it to the bottom. We hose the grunge off the algae on the sides and the plant pots left in place, leaving the algae untouched. The last little bit of dirty water and gravel is sucked out with a shop vac. The settling tank is drained and hosed. The pond is then re-netted, refilled and "aerated" for 24 hours, then the regular pumps/filters turned on and the fish are returned to it. It's a dirty all day job. How often do you do this? I'm trying to have a pond about that size that only requires a "sediment suck" on a minimal basis - without removing anything. ============================= Since they started spawning, every spring. There were a few springs we skipped when they were all young and small. We also remove all the unwanted fry and any bullfrogs or turtles we find. Some predators get through the nets as youngsters and then grow like mad. Sucking out the sediment alone doesn't work for us. Too much goes into suspension and clouds the water. That doesn't remove all the DTSs either. With a total water change everything is removed; hormones, feces, urine, bits of this and that including at least 20 to 30 gallons of black slop (mulm). The fish love it and almost always spawn within a few days of these major water changes. :-) -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
#18
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Question about irises
"Kurt" wrote in message ... In article , "Reel McKoi" wrote: I think you're "screwed." Our largest pond is 2000 and unless we drain it down and remove all grunge the filter misses it clouds the water and filters almost daily. What we do is remove the old bird-net, drain it down to the largest koi's dorsal fin, net them out and drain it to the bottom. We hose the grunge off the algae on the sides and the plant pots left in place, leaving the algae untouched. The last little bit of dirty water and gravel is sucked out with a shop vac. The settling tank is drained and hosed. The pond is then re-netted, refilled and "aerated" for 24 hours, then the regular pumps/filters turned on and the fish are returned to it. It's a dirty all day job. How often do you do this? I'm trying to have a pond about that size that only requires a "sediment suck" on a minimal basis - without removing anything. ============================= Since they started spawning, every spring. There were a few springs we skipped when they were all young and small. We also remove all the unwanted fry and any bullfrogs or turtles we find. Some predators get through the nets as youngsters and then grow like mad. Sucking out the sediment alone doesn't work for us. Too much goes into suspension and clouds the water. That doesn't remove all the DTSs either. With a total water change everything is removed; hormones, feces, urine, bits of this and that including at least 20 to 30 gallons of black slop (mulm). The fish love it and almost always spawn within a few days of these major water changes. :-) -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
#19
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Question about irises
"~ jan" wrote in message ... Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan ==================== This is true but it doesn't remove what a total water change will. Many filters will clog quickly with the plant matter and other grunge that settles to the bottom. Grunge also settles on the plants and their pots. This is hosed off during the spring change. My filter intake is on the bottom and catches much of the particles but not all land near the intake. It lands on the shelves and all other serfaces. My pump has only one intake. My grow-out tanks get little of this mulm/grunge for some reason but I do a complete chage on them yearly also. Again, to remove all the TDS as the water slowly turns harder and loses it's buffering capacity. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
#20
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Question about irises
In article ,
~ jan wrote: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:45:55 CST, Kurt wrote: How often do you do this? I'm trying to have a pond about that size that only requires a "sediment suck" on a minimal basis - without removing anything. Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us Was hoping to avoid rebuilding the pond (major undertaking). Reel's tips are probably what I need to do. -- To reply by email, remove the word "space" |
#21
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Question about irises
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:16:10 CST, Kurt wrote:
How often do you do this? I'm trying to have a pond about that size that only requires a "sediment suck" on a minimal basis - without removing anything. Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan Was hoping to avoid rebuilding the pond (major undertaking). Reel's tips are probably what I need to do. I misunderstood, you said you were trying to have a pond that size, I thought you were in the building stage. I have a retro-fit bottom drain that doesn't go thru the liner (diagram on my filter page), perhaps that is an option? ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
#22
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Question about irises
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:45:09 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote: Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan ==================== This is true but it doesn't remove what a total water change will. You're also removing the eco-balance. Not everyone has access to good water and often a total water change will cause new-pond-syndrome (pea soup) for some. I believe you have UV to combat this? Many filters will clog quickly with the plant matter and other grunge that settles to the bottom. Grunge also settles on the plants and their pots. This is hosed off during the spring change. My filter intake is on the bottom and catches much of the particles but not all land near the intake. It lands on the shelves and all other serfaces. My pump has only one intake. Once one's koi are big enough, they continually move sediments towards the bottom drain. Since this is continual the pond stays clean and the filter doesn't need extra cleaning. Most people who have researched or discovered the ease of using a bottom drain also have gotten the message regarding proper filter size so they aren't cleaning them all that often. Once every 6 weeks, pre-filter only. That's why, IMHO, when someone who is just in the thinking stage of building a pond should be steered towards bottom drains & skimmers. And if they have the money, a vortex filter system. I'm all about ease on the back, and time. A 24/7 flow thru system takes care of a lot water chemistry problems (if one has a good water source). ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
#23
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Question about irises
In article ,
~ jan wrote: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:16:10 CST, Kurt wrote: How often do you do this? I'm trying to have a pond about that size that only requires a "sediment suck" on a minimal basis - without removing anything. Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan Was hoping to avoid rebuilding the pond (major undertaking). Reel's tips are probably what I need to do. I misunderstood, you said you were trying to have a pond that size, I thought you were in the building stage. I have a retro-fit bottom drain that doesn't go thru the liner (diagram on my filter page), perhaps that is an option? ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us Hmmm... checked it out - looks good. I just need a careful balance between sucking up the muck and sucking up the tiny fish. -- To reply by email, remove the word "space" |
#24
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Question about irises
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:39:23 CST, Kurt wrote:
Hmmm... checked it out - looks good. I just need a careful balance between sucking up the muck and sucking up the tiny fish. Yes, it will suck up fish. In my case they just end up in the pre-filter no worst for the ride. Eggs now.... I've had a lot of babies do quite well in the filter, makes for longer clean out times catching them all. ;-) So far only twice in the 11 years I've had it running. ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
#25
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Question about irises
Hmmm... checked it out - looks good. I just need a careful balance
between sucking up the muck and sucking up the tiny fish. Our intake is at the deepest part of the pond (7') inside a 5 gal bucket that has as many 1/2" holes in it as we could drill. The many holes reduce the pull through any one of them and close out anything over 1/2". Muck goes in, but nothing else. The pump is designed to handle anything under 1/2". If the holes were 1/4" it would keep all but the tiniest fish out. Once a year, we net out the larger- than-1/2" muck that gathers by the filter intake. As Jan noted, an intake at the lowest point makes the pond self-cleaning. Jim |
#26
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Question about irises
In article .com,
Phyllis and Jim wrote: Hmmm... checked it out - looks good. I just need a careful balance between sucking up the muck and sucking up the tiny fish. Our intake is at the deepest part of the pond (7') inside a 5 gal bucket that has as many 1/2" holes in it as we could drill. The many holes reduce the pull through any one of them and close out anything over 1/2". Muck goes in, but nothing else. The pump is designed to handle anything under 1/2". If the holes were 1/4" it would keep all but the tiniest fish out. Once a year, we net out the larger- than-1/2" muck that gathers by the filter intake. As Jan noted, an intake at the lowest point makes the pond self-cleaning. Jim I have netting over a prefilter in mine. My pond is tiered, and the deepest point is about 3 ft. 5 gal is too big for me, but something similar would work. I really need to revamp my system. I will post pix and sizes to get input. Appreciate the tips! -- To reply by email, remove the word "space" |
#27
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Question about irises
"~ jan" wrote in message ... On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:45:09 CST, "Reel McKoi" wrote: Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan ==================== This is true but it doesn't remove what a total water change will. You're also removing the eco-balance. Not everyone has access to good water and often a total water change will cause new-pond-syndrome (pea soup) for some. I believe you have UV to combat this? Jan, I seldom get pea soup just because I did a total water change. I sometimes get pea soup with no obvious cause. Yes I have UV lights but seldom actually need them. I only use them when the water fails to clear on it's own. Many filters will clog quickly with the plant matter and other grunge that settles to the bottom. Grunge also settles on the plants and their pots. This is hosed off during the spring change. My filter intake is on the bottom and catches much of the particles but not all land near the intake. It lands on the shelves and all other serfaces. My pump has only one intake. Once one's koi are big enough, they continually move sediments towards the bottom drain. I would need bottom drains all over the bottom and on the shelves. The bottom is not rounded like a bowl but flat. The shelves are level and not tipped inward to dump the mulm to the bottom. My koi are all adults in the front ponds and do stir the sediment which then lands everywhere on the bottom and the shelves and plant pots. The darn stuff is everwhere. Since this is continual the pond stays clean and the filter doesn't need extra cleaning. Most people who have researched or discovered the ease of using a bottom drain also have gotten the message regarding proper filter size so they aren't cleaning them all that often. I could probably use a larger filter. The ones we made ourselves are better than the Tetra Filters we bought years ago. Now with only 10 koi in the 2000g pond and 5 in the 800g pond the filters don't need cleaning as often. Once every 6 weeks, pre-filter only. That's why, IMHO, when someone who is just in the thinking stage of building a pond should be steered towards bottom drains & skimmers. And if they have the money, a vortex filter system. I'm all about ease on the back, and time. I agree. Get the best system money can buy right at the start and don't make the mistake of flat bottom ponds like we did. A 24/7 flow thru system takes care of a lot water chemistry problems (if one has a good water source). ~ jan Or if one has their own well. :-) -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
#28
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Question about irises
"Kurt" wrote in message ... Hmmm... checked it out - looks good. I just need a careful balance between sucking up the muck and sucking up the tiny fish. ================ It's been my experience that the tiny fish hang our mainly in the shallow end of ponds and in the planted areas. I don't see them on the bottom where it's deep until they're 1 to 1 1/2" long. If a bottom drain has large enough openings they can be sucked in. Newts and small frogs would most likely get sucked into a bottom intake. My pumps are sealed in those stiff black plastic mesh plant pots. That keeps out the tadpoles, fry, newts and small frogs, twigs, leaves and larger plant debris. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
#29
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Question about irises
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:30:37 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote: I agree. Get the best system money can buy right at the start and don't make the mistake of flat bottom ponds like we did. I dug my liner up after a year in the ground and installed a bottom drain. In the process I put a taper to the bottom, giving the bottom about a 1 in 4 feet of drop to the center. That may help a little, but I can't tell that it helps to keep the bottom clean. Detritus still settles on the surface, eventually leaves seem to find their way to the drain, but it isn't like rain off a roof of the same pitch. It does however make it very exciting to step into the pond and try to walk around bare footed. The bottom is about 8x11 feet and I can place one foot on the drain dome and do little things like retrieving something off the bottom that a net or scoop won't pick up, but the tapered bottom is just a pita. IMHO A much better solution to a clean bottom is to use a sweeper. I used a second pump to push water through ABS pipe on three sides of the pond along the bottom corner, with holes spaced along the side of the pipe to push water across the bottom and to the drain. I put it on a timer and ran it for an hour daily. It was beneficial, but lily pots kept it from being totally effective. Without junk like pots bottom it should work well. I prefer the lilies to the questionable benefit of the sweeper with the pots disturbing the sweeping flow. Regards, Hal |
#30
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Question about irises
"Hal" wrote in message ... On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:30:37 CST, "Reel McKoi" wrote: I agree. Get the best system money can buy right at the start and don't make the mistake of flat bottom ponds like we did. I dug my liner up after a year in the ground and installed a bottom drain. In the process I put a taper to the bottom, giving the bottom about a 1 in 4 feet of drop to the center. That may help a little, but I can't tell that it helps to keep the bottom clean. Detritus still settles on the surface, eventually leaves seem to find their way to the drain, but it isn't like rain off a roof of the same pitch. It does however make it very exciting to step into the pond and try to walk around bare footed. The bottom is about 8x11 feet and I can place one foot on the drain dome and do little things like retrieving something off the bottom that a net or scoop won't pick up, but the tapered bottom is just a pita. The sloped bottom would certainly present a problem with balance. At our age myself and my husband don't need a bad fall. I took a bad one from the shelf a few years back and the bruises and pain lasted for weeks. IMHO A much better solution to a clean bottom is to use a sweeper. I used a second pump to push water through ABS pipe on three sides of the pond along the bottom corner, with holes spaced along the side of the pipe to push water across the bottom and to the drain. I put it on a timer and ran it for an hour daily. It was beneficial, but lily pots kept it from being totally effective. Without junk like pots bottom it should work well. I prefer the lilies to the questionable benefit of the sweeper with the pots disturbing the sweeping flow. That sounds like a workable solution to removing your mulm. Since we have to drain down the pond to remove all the unwanted fry every year we'll probably continue to do so. Removing the mulm and leaving the fry would never work. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
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