Hi, ponders! It's that time of year again when I start re-thinking
how I've been managing the pond and nervously watching the fish
closely for health issues. I've been reading, which always confuses
me, so now I'm wondering:

Do you really have to do partial water changes in ponds if the water
chemistry is okay? My pond is probably about 1500- 2000 gallons, only
about 12 goldies, pH solid at aroun 8.5, alkalinity around 100, no
ammonia or nitrite, lots of plants, a good waterfall, a nice
mechanical/bio filter.

Do I really have to drain the pond every few years for a major
cleaning, or can I just scoop the gunk up off the bottom with a net?

It took so long to get the water just right; I hate to rock the boat.

Thanks!!

Joan in Oregon, always appreciative of you guys.

I top up my pond. I change about 1/3 each year. I have a veggie filter drags
"stuff" out of the pond. After 8 (9?) years I can still see folds in the liner at
the bottom of the pond (4'). My koi stir up any sediment and the pump gets it into
the veggie filter and I remove the mulm with a shop vac. My pond is netted and there
really arent a lot of trees nearby to dump leaves etc into the pond.
I have nice lake water, but there is chlorine/chloramine and I am not thrilled with
having to put sodium thiosulfate into the pond. My fish are healthy. Ingrid

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:17:47 EDT, Joan wrote:
Do you really have to do partial water changes in ponds if the water
chemistry is okay? My pond is probably about 1500- 2000 gallons, only
about 12 goldies, pH solid at aroun 8.5, alkalinity around 100, no
ammonia or nitrite, lots of plants, a good waterfall, a nice
mechanical/bio filter.
Do I really have to drain the pond every few years for a major
cleaning, or can I just scoop the gunk up off the bottom with a net?

"Joan" wrote in message
news
(brevity snips)

Do you really have to do partial water changes in ponds if the water
chemistry is okay?

You'll surely get different opinions on this subject. I believe DS
(dissolved solids) build up in the water that should be removed. Plants and
filters don't necessarily remove them. I do partial water changes on both
my ponds and a yearly or every-other-year cleanout. Mulm builds up on the
bottom that the pump doesn't get, even though the fish may stir it up. I've
never had a fish die with these total cleanouts. In fact the clean fresh
water almost always stimulates them to spawn.

Do I really have to drain the pond every few years for a major
cleaning, or can I just scoop the gunk up off the bottom with a net?

That stirs up foul gasses which are not healthy for your fish and leaves all
the "fines" behind. It also doesn't remove all the dissolved solids in the
water.

It took so long to get the water just right; I hate to rock the boat.

What was it before it was "just right?" My GF and koi have thrived and
spawned in water from a PH of 7.6 to 8.2. Your 8.5 is a little high. Just
curious, why do you keep it so high?
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:48:56 EDT, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

What was it before it was "just right?" My GF and koi have thrived and
spawned in water from a PH of 7.6 to 8.2. Your 8.5 is a little high. Just
curious, why do you keep it so high?

The pH comes out of the tap at around 7, but the alkalinity is
approximately zero, so I have no buffering capacity unless I add some
buffer. I try to keep the alkalinity at around 100.

I'd prefer that the pH be a little lower than 8.5, by the time I've
gotten the water suitably buffered, the pH is up. I use the
commercial product "Buff it Up" for ponds. Dissolves nicely and
doesn't cloud the water, and keeps the alkalinity up for longer than
sodium bicarbonate. The pH stays nice and stable, varying hardly at
all from day to day, and even not varying much from AM to PM.

I do get a lot of string algae in the pond, which I take out as I can,
but it keeps on growing. I don't mind it as long as it doesn't get
too carried away. But I suspect that it pulls a lot of CO2 out of the
water during photosynthesis, which pulls the pH up by the end of the
day. I do make it a point to keep the submerged algae under control
so it doesn't drive the pH up too too high by the end of the day.

Joan

Okay, thanks. How often do you do the partial water changes, and what
percentage do you change?

When you do the cleanout, what do you do with your fish?

Joan

You'll surely get different opinions on this subject. I believe DS
(dissolved solids) build up in the water that should be removed. Plants and
filters don't necessarily remove them. I do partial water changes on both
my ponds and a yearly or every-other-year cleanout. Mulm builds up on the
bottom that the pump doesn't get, even though the fish may stir it up.

Thanks, Steve. 30 years is a long time, so you must be doing
something right. Do you have fish in there?

Joan

I have had a small stone and clay pond in my garden for nearly 30
years. Some of the water is "changed" every time it rains because it
has an overflow. Occasionally I scrape the leaves off the filter inlet
but that's all I ever do.

Steve

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:17:47 EDT, Joan wrote:

Hi, ponders! It's that time of year again when I start re-thinking
how I've been managing the pond and nervously watching the fish
closely for health issues. I've been reading, which always confuses
me, so now I'm wondering:

Do you really have to do partial water changes in ponds if the water
chemistry is okay? My pond is probably about 1500- 2000 gallons, only
about 12 goldies, pH solid at aroun 8.5, alkalinity around 100, no
ammonia or nitrite, lots of plants, a good waterfall, a nice
mechanical/bio filter.

As Carol mentioned, lots of various answers, and your situation/environment
and water source all have to be considered. There are different things you
can get away with based on what kind of pond and fish you have. Koi only
ponds the latest is to do a continual flow, people are using carbon filters
for the input with the output flowing to water the garden in some way.

Those who mix fish & plants can get away with less extremism. How many fish
to gallons makes a difference. I feel I'm on the line in the koi ponds, so
I do a 10-15% water change once/week. The goldfish pond, with much less and
smaller fish, once every other week.

In my case though, doing a water change out keeps the buffering up,
decreases heavy metals and can reduce parasites & bacteria, imo.

Do I really have to drain the pond every few years for a major
cleaning, or can I just scoop the gunk up off the bottom with a net?

Better would be a shop vac, as all the gunk, plus fines, are suck out of
the pond. If you're just talking a few leaves not a problem. Draining the
pond is not a necessity, nor preferred, if you can keep the bottom clean.

It took so long to get the water just right; I hate to rock the boat.

That's why small frequent water changes are the mantra of most pond clubs.
http://koiclubsandiego.org/library/w...hange_outs.php

When I first got into ponding one of the senior club members compared not
changing one's pond water to staying in a room without opening the windows
now and again. Or imagine having your car on recir. air after you've just
taken the family out for a Mexican dinner. eg ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

"Joan" wrote in message
...
The pH comes out of the tap at around 7, but the alkalinity is
approximately zero, so I have no buffering capacity unless I add some
buffer. I try to keep the alkalinity at around 100.

I'd prefer that the pH be a little lower than 8.5, by the time I've
gotten the water suitably buffered, the pH is up. I use the
commercial product "Buff it Up" for ponds. Dissolves nicely and
doesn't cloud the water, and keeps the alkalinity up for longer than
sodium bicarbonate. The pH stays nice and stable, varying hardly at
all from day to day, and even not varying much from AM to PM.

I do get a lot of string algae in the pond, which I take out as I can,
but it keeps on growing. I don't mind it as long as it doesn't get
too carried away. But I suspect that it pulls a lot of CO2 out of the
water during photosynthesis, which pulls the pH up by the end of the
day. I do make it a point to keep the submerged algae under control
so it doesn't drive the pH up too too high by the end of the day.
================================
For buffering have you tried something more natural like oystershell chicken
grit or small limestone rocks? I found neither one raises the PH much but
does buffer the water and keeps the PH from dropping. Both keep the water
above 7.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"Joan" wrote in message
...

Okay, thanks. How often do you do the partial water changes, and what
percentage do you change?

When you do the cleanout, what do you do with your fish?
================================
About once a month I drain off about a third of the water. We don't really
measure it. Then slowly refill from the hose using a dechlorinator. We buy
the crystals and mix our own. Or you can degass the water by running it in
slowly over a trashcan lid exposing a thin layer of water to the air. That
is if you have something to set the lit on over the water. You can also add
water by letting it run down a waterfall. If you have chloromines in your
water that will not work.

When we do a draindown all the fish go in to an aerated child's kiddy pool
of 1/2 pond and 1/2 fresh water with a hardware cloth surround and net over
the top because fish jump. We also have too many predators here not to net
the top. I add plants and a floating cooler lid for them to hide under. They
go back in the next morning.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

Thanks, Jan.

[respectfully snipped for bandwidth]

Glad to know I don't have to drain the pond.

I did get an Oase PondoVac, which I am trying to get to work right,
but it's being a tempermental pain in the neck. In the meantime, I
know I have to be careful about fines and hydrogen sulfide gas, so I'm
net-cleaning the bottom just a little at a time, so I don't stir too
much up at once. I do have a good filter that I think will trap much
of the stirred up fines, and also a UV sterilizer.

Okay, I guess you've convinced me though. I'll have to start doing
small water changes.

Fortunately, I live in Pacific Northwest like you, where we get plenty
of rain in the fall, winter, and spring, and the pond has a nice
overflow, so I think we've been getting some water exchange that way.

Joan
___________________

your tap or rain water has heavy metals?
The parasites and bacteria are ON the fish, not usually free in the water.
up here in the frozen wasteland one DOES NOT open the windows all fall, winter and
spring. instead we use air exchangers. a veggie filter is like an air exchanger and
the surface of the water exchanges gases.

I think more fish die each year from people forgetting that the water is running than
in ponds with a veggie filter. Ingrid

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:04:00 EDT, ~ jan wrote:
In my case though, doing a water change
decreases heavy metals and can reduce parasites & bacteria, imo.

When I first got into ponding one of the senior club members compared not
changing one's pond water to staying in a room without opening the windows
now and again. Or imagine having your car on recir. air after you've just
taken the family out for a Mexican dinner. eg ~ jan

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:09:03 EDT, Joan wrote:

Fortunately, I live in Pacific Northwest like you, where we get plenty
of rain in the fall, winter, and spring, and the pond has a nice
overflow, so I think we've been getting some water exchange that way.
Joan

Chuckle You must live on the wet side of the state? I've yet to see a
rain heavy enough to give me overflow here on the East side. ;-) ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

"Joan" wrote in message
...
Fortunately, I live in Pacific Northwest like you, where we get plenty
of rain in the fall, winter, and spring, and the pond has a nice
overflow, so I think we've been getting some water exchange that way.
======================
Rain, containing no minerals, will soften your water, washing out your
buffering capacity and lowering your PH. Check after a heavy rain.

We can't use the pond vac in our ponds because one pond is too deep and in
both, and the "stuff" at the bottom clogs in the hose. If these vacs work
for you - more power to you! :-)
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:57:14 EDT, wrote:

your tap or rain water has heavy metals?

It could, Columbia River, heavily polluted by slag from Canada. Why we
filter it.

I have no idea what the OP has, so always take that into consideration when
offering advice.

The parasites and bacteria are ON the fish, not usually free in the water.

Not if their slime coat & immune system is working. Parasites have free
swimming cycles and bacterium blows in the wind, and like parasites ca
enter the water on critters' feet/bodies.

up here in the frozen wasteland one DOES NOT open the windows all fall, winter and
spring. instead we use air exchangers. a veggie filter is like an air exchanger and
the surface of the water exchanges gases.

Apples and oranges, square footage, I bet there are less people in your
house space-wise as there are in fish in your pond.

I think more fish die each year from people forgetting that the water is running than
in ponds with a veggie filter. Ingrid

I disagree, there are water timers that auto shut off for the forgetful.
Plus it goes against all documentation to advise not doing water change
outs. Noga surely recommends them? He, I believe, recommends the small
frequent water change, as would I, because it doesn't change the temp, or
pH by much, and that kills more fish than forgetful people, who probably
shouldn't own pets in general. ;-) ~ jan

------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:09:03 EDT, Joan wrote:

Fortunately, I live in Pacific Northwest like you, where we get plenty
of rain in the fall, winter, and spring, and the pond has a nice
overflow, so I think we've been getting some water exchange that way.
Joan

Speaking of rain, that can really lower the buffering.... but you said
you've checked it straight from the tap? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us