I've been told that frogs will burrow in the muck at the bottom of a
pond for the winter. Is this true? If so, for a pond with a liner
which eliminates much of the muck, is there a way to provide an
alternative for frogs living in the pond? I fished out several frogs
this last spring which apparently had no place to burrow for the
winter and so they didn't make it. Thanks.

I don't have the answer but I am thinking of putting a cat litter box filled
with kitty litter clay in the bottom of the pond. I'm not sure what to put
on the top to keep the clay from muddying up the water.

Donna

"DaddyOooh" wrote in message
...
I've been told that frogs will burrow in the muck at the bottom of a
pond for the winter. Is this true? If so, for a pond with a liner
which eliminates much of the muck, is there a way to provide an
alternative for frogs living in the pond? I fished out several frogs
this last spring which apparently had no place to burrow for the
winter and so they didn't make it. Thanks.

If you use kitty litter get the ultra plain stuff, no
odor treated or pretty smelling.

I guess you also might be able to use untreated soil from
your garden, wet it down good with pond water and slooowly
lower it into the pond. I'm all about trying to stick as close
to Mother Nature's way of doing things as possible.

My frogs do fine in our lined pond. The amount of muck down
there depends on the year and how ambitious we are in the
spring when we clean, if we clean at all that year.

When I have lost frogs it has been because of a power outage
and massive snow which ices over the pond for an extended
period of time. I use an air pump to keep a hole open in the
ice.

k :-)

"kathy" wrote in message
...
If you use kitty litter get the ultra plain stuff, no
odor treated or pretty smelling.

I guess you also might be able to use untreated soil from
your garden, wet it down good with pond water and slooowly
lower it into the pond. I'm all about trying to stick as close
to Mother Nature's way of doing things as possible.

My frogs do fine in our lined pond. The amount of muck down
there depends on the year and how ambitious we are in the
spring when we clean, if we clean at all that year.

When I have lost frogs it has been because of a power outage
and massive snow which ices over the pond for an extended
period of time. I use an air pump to keep a hole open in the
ice.

k :-)

I stopped getting tadpoles because my frogs died over the winter - I leave
the muck on the bottom because there are worms in it plus I used to leave me
lilies potless but it did not seem to be enough protection. Also I have
always had a pond hole either from an airstone or from a heater so it wasn't
that. I have pottery clay leftovers but it strikes me as too heavy. I was
hoping the kitty litter (no odor control) would be lighter for them. Maybe
a mix of sand and clay or just sand? Getting soil out of my yard is almost
impossible. The damn plants just don't want to share. I have not a clue
what I'm doing and I really don't want to find dead frogs next spring (so
why did I get tadpoles this year... they were there, end of season, no one
was giving them a home, I could not resist..)

Donna

The question that comes to mind is do they *really* bury themselves
in mud in nature?
I found an article where scientists actually dove into water in the
winter and found the frogs on top of the bottom surface. They
were in depressions in the bottom substrate.

I've had frogs show up in years we cleaned the pond in the
spring and years we haven't. Limited amt. of muck vs. more muck.
I always wondered if they hung out in the 'condos' in the builder's
brick that holds up the island.

I do know they need a limited amount of oxygen in the winter
which they manage to get thru their skins.
I think there are many factors in amphibian deaths over the winter.

If I had unlimited funds.... I'd set up an elaborate camera system and
lighting system underwater and *watch* them over the winter.....

k :-)

On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 20:02:49 EDT, kathy wrote:

The question that comes to mind is do they *really* bury themselves
in mud in nature?

Well, if my memory serves me [and the remote memory is still pretty
goodg] about 45 yrs ago I tipped a rock over and found a frog
frozen into a hollow under the rock.
.. . . .

I had to Google it. This page;
http://www.vanaqua.org/education/aquafacts/frogs.html
says "Hibernating frogs frequently burrow in the soil, which could be
at the bottom of a pond, under a log, or in a garden. "

A thought comes to mind. Frogs breathe air. How do they go to the
bottom of a pond for months and live? And if they breathe through
their skin- then why do they leave just their nostrils out of the
water when they hide?

Jim

I have a few turtles in my pond. Should bring them indoors for the
winter or will they survive? I have red ear sliders turtles

If your pond does not freeze solid, and if you leave a hole open
in the ice, turtles will be fine in the pond over winter. I'm in US
zone
7, often four inches of ice on the pond, and my turtles wintered
over (painted and red earred sliders).

As for frogs - they go into a hibernation like state - Get them cold
enough and they slooooow way down - and different
species have different ways of going thru the winter.
I have pacific chorus frogs who hibernate in leaf litter and under
debris and bullfrogs who go thru the winter in the pond.

k :-)

My advice on the kitty litter approach is "don't do it."

Last Fall, I thought I'd save my frozen frogs by using clay kitty
litter-- pure clay, pretty expensive stuff. It turns into mush in the
water, makes a cloud if you bump it at all, and the tadpoles that I
moved to it didn't want anything to do with it. I ended up pulling it
out--I think I had 3 plastic cat boxes of it. It was incredibly heavy
once full of water and again made a mess when I moved it.

I wouldn't use sand either because I don't want it getting to my
filter & UV. The less added debris the better I think.

My pond is cement over liner, so there's no burrowing there either.
But, I did a couple things differently last winter and the frog
population (unexpectedly) boomed. I have two large air stones that are
going throughout the winter to keep a hole open, but I decided to keep
a skimmer pump going off and on to keep the waterfall running after
the filter pump had been shut down for the season, in hopes of keeping
a hole in the stream between the waterfall and the main part of the
pond. I figured this would give the frogs a place to hang out, and I'd
already noticed many tadpoles up there, which was my reason for not
wanting to let the stream freeze in the first place. It worked very
well and the stream didn't freeze at all. Overflow from ice dams
wasn't an issue for me although it's something to consider. Come
Spring, the stream was full of tadpoles and shortly afterwards frogs
appeared which either overwintered there or came from the nearby
woods. The only dead frog I found was in the main part of the pond, by
the drain, whereas the year before I pulled out maybe 6 or 7 dead ones
from the stream. The plants in the stream came back earlier as well
and even water forget-me-nots which I don't think are supposed to
overwinter in NH started appearing in the stream by late spring. The
Spring water quality was much better too--much clearer. I'll be doing
the same thing again this year because it worked so well.

I'm not sure where your frogs come from, but we have woods within
200-300 yards of the pond, and I'm sure that most of ours (green frogs
mainly) come from there. I believe that many of ours over-winter in
the woods as well. I was mainly concerned about preserving the
tadpoles last year since there were so many of them. I also suspect
that if all of our frogs were wiped out, we'd get a new supply
migrating from the woods fairly quickly anyway.

As a side note, we have the largest green frog I've ever seen out
there now. I've seen it eat small fish and my daughter was horrified
to see it eat a frog that she had just rescued from our swimming pool.
It's the size of a bullfrog, but I'm quite sure it's just a huge green
"Frogzilla" that has decided frogs and fish taste better than bugs.

Anyway, I'd avoid adding "artificial muck areas" to your pond for
frogs and instead focus on keeping their (and primarily their
tadpoles') favorite spots thawed.

By the way, my frog book says that the kind of frogs that we have
hibernate "in mud and moss around ponds." (AROUND, not IN.) I had read
the same information that you had on the 'net, but I believe this book
since it's so detailed on the subject of frogs and toads. It's called
"The Frog Book." I think it makes more sense as well, at least for the
kind of frogs we have. I'm sure that their relatives are overwintering
in mud, moss and forest stuff in the woods. You may be able to just
provide an out-of-water area (a peat moss bed or something) for them
to over winter in. However, no matter how much effort you put in,
they're going to camp out where they want to anyway. I think most of
ours returned to the woods during the Fall last year. Do you know what
kind of frogs you have?

Dave

Hi
We have a very large natural pont in our garden approx 50 feet by 30 feet, which is a natural pond with a clay bottom - no liner Despite this we find the frogs will hide in the foliage around the pond and under rocks and stones and not the bottom of the pond, We have also a design for a frog and toad house the details of which I will shortly be putting on our blog in the garden wild life section.

you will find this at http://www.carreglefn-nurseries.co.uk/blog or via the link at http:www.carreglefn-nurseries.co.uk

If you e mail via the link I will let you have the plans anyway, but cat litter is not the answer.

kathryn
http://www.carreglefn-nurseries.co.uk

I suppose their green leopard frogs based on their markings. About
2-3". I've never relly looked them up. I sort of thought it odd and
somewhat counter intuitive that the frogs would burrow in the pond
bottom but it wouldn't be the first time that a miracle of Mother
Nature defied logic. I just hate to fish them out in the spring and I
suppose I figure they must be good for keeping the bug population
down...not to mention the devastation my little girls go through when
we find them. I keep an air hole in the ice all winter and even kept
the water fall running all year this last year to help keep the ice at
bay to some extent. No problems with Ice dams. I also have minnows
and sun fish in with the gold fish and Koi. Does anyone know if
there's an issue with have these wild species in there with the
"domestic" fish?

Pond Addict wrote:
By the way, my frog book says that the kind of frogs that we have
hibernate "in mud and moss around ponds." (AROUND, not IN.) I had read
the same information that you had on the 'net, but I believe this book
since it's so detailed on the subject of frogs and toads. It's called
"The Frog Book." I think it makes more sense as well, at least for the
kind of frogs we have. I'm sure that their relatives are overwintering
in mud, moss and forest stuff in the woods. You may be able to just
provide an out-of-water area (a peat moss bed or something) for them
to over winter in. However, no matter how much effort you put in,
they're going to camp out where they want to anyway. I think most of
ours returned to the woods during the Fall last year. Do you know what
kind of frogs you have?

Piles of logs and terracotta pipes covered over with earth make a good
habitat for all garden animals. Poke leaves and moss into all the gaps
before piling on the earth and ensure there are access routes for small
creatures. Maybe even a separate section for hedgehogs and other mammals
with larger access holes.
I've seen instructions for digging garden nature ponds that suggest
building a bank from the dug out soil using this method.

"DaddyOooh" wrote in message
...
I've been told that frogs will burrow in the muck at the bottom of a
pond for the winter. Is this true? If so, for a pond with a liner
which eliminates much of the muck, is there a way to provide an
alternative for frogs living in the pond? I fished out several frogs
this last spring which apparently had no place to burrow for the
winter and so they didn't make it. Thanks.

=======================There is usually enough fluffy mulm on the bottom of my ponds in the wint
er
and some frogs still don't make it. Yet we have never netted out a dead n
ewt
or slider. They all make it.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"Peter Pan" wrote in message
...
I have a few turtles in my pond. Should bring them indoors for the winte
r
or will they survive? I have red ear sliders turtles

==============================We have them also. Leave them alone. I never had one to die over the wint
er.
No one I know ever mentioned on dying either. They must have their norma
l
winter-summer cycles to breed successfully I was told.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"DaddyOooh" wrote in message
...
I suppose their green leopard frogs based on their markings. About
2-3". I've never relly looked them up. I sort of thought it odd and
somewhat counter intuitive that the frogs would burrow in the pond
bottom but it wouldn't be the first time that a miracle of Mother
Nature defied logic. I just hate to fish them out in the spring and I
suppose I figure they must be good for keeping the bug population
down...not to mention the devastation my little girls go through when
we find them. I keep an air hole in the ice all winter and even kept
the water fall running all year this last year to help keep the ice at
bay to some extent. No problems with Ice dams. I also have minnows
and sun fish in with the gold fish and Koi. Does anyone know if
there's an issue with have these wild species in there with the
"domestic" fish.
=============================Make sure you have a way for the frogs to escape your pond. Something the
y
can climb onto to jump to shore.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö