Hi all:

I have a 18'x15'x32" deep pond in front of my house on the side of the walkway
leading to my front door. The pond/house is up on a hill about 100 feet from
the road. Is there any insurance liability I should be conserned with? Just
incase someone would fall in it. I would hate to have to put a fence around it.
The top of the pond is about 12" above grade. I put a plant shelf all the way
around it for just incase someone would fall in they could get out eazly.

Thanx
Gary

Hi Gary,

I would call your city/county, whoever is in charge where you live and see what
they say about their rules and regs. Then I would call your insurance company.
In our area, within city limits, I think 18" is as deep as an unfenced body of
water can be.

k30a

(GARY BEEZ) sez:
I have a 18'x15'x32" deep pond in front of my house on the side of the walkway
leading to my front door. The pond/house is up on a hill about 100 feet from
the road. Is there any insurance liability I should be conserned with? Just
incase someone would fall in it. I would hate to have to put a fence around it.
The top of the pond is about 12" above grade. I put a plant shelf all the way
around it for just incase someone would fall in they could get out eazly.

You should call and ask your insurance agent. In many places, the limit is
36" deep without a fence, but you also owe extra care if it's likely to
attract kids. For example, mine is in my backyard out-of-sight of the
road. But if yours is in clear view of a sidewalk a few blocks from a
school, you probably should fence off the pond or the entire yard. Not
just for legal reasons, but because civil suits are trouble, youthful
enthusiasm may masquerade as vandalism, and because young kids don't tend
to have good self-preservation instincts.

A short (one meter) hedge along the roadside could work just as well as a
fence for most purposes though.

I have done much research on this matter after building my 6 acre pond.
Almost all states have adopted the same laws. I bet most smal;l pond owners
here dont know the laws.

You are protected from trespassers if they are adult and you post no
trespassing signs. HOWEVER laws for adults vary from state to state. For
instance in some states if you see tresspassers on your property and do not
kick them off and they get hurt you are liable.

Trespassing adults are not your concern for a little backyard pond. Children
are. Most states have adopted the "Doctrine of Attractive Nuisances". Here's
an article on what it is:

Dangers to Children: Attractive Nuisances
If something on your property is both inviting and dangerous, you have a
legal responsibility to try to prevent injuries to children who may wander
onto the property.

Children, closely watched or not, stray onto other people's properties
sooner or later. Often, what draws them are everyday objects -- pools,
machinery or stacks of building materials -- that present both an
irresistible lure and hidden danger to young children.

If something on your property is both inviting and dangerous, you have a
special legal responsibility to try to prevent injuries to children who may
wander onto the property. In many states, this rule is called the
"attractive nuisance" doctrine. It can be roughly summarized with three
rules:

Children are not expected to fully realize the dangers they may encounter.
A property owner who should realize that children are likely to come onto
the property has a heightened responsibility to prevent harm.
An owner who fails to take reasonable precautions to prevent injury is
usually liable for a child's injuries.

What Is an Attractive Nuisance?
An attractive nuisance is a potentially harmful object so inviting or
interesting to a child that it would lure the child onto the property to
investigate.

An unenclosed swimming pool, for instance, or a fountain containing goldfish
could be attractive nuisances. Ordinary objects can attract and injure
children: an idling lawnmower, paint sprayer, table saw -- even the family
auto. Children are also fascinated by construction sites and equipment,
gasoline pumps, wells, tunnels, dumpsters, paths and stairways.

You may be thinking that almost anything could injure a small child. After
all, even a stick in the yard can be picked up and poked into an eye. Yet a
stick is not so unusual or enticing as to draw children over at their peril.

And not every dangerous condition is an attractive nuisance. Most natural
conditions, such as a lake or a naturally steep bank, are not considered
attractive nuisances. To be liable for injury, an owner must create or
maintain the harmful object.

And even a very small child is presumed by the law to understand some
dangers -- for example, falling from a height or touching fire. The
attractive nuisance doctrine arises when the child doesn't realize the
extent of the danger.

Who Is Protected
Very young children are far from the only ones protected by the law. Judges
tend to look at each particular case and each individual child's capacity to
understand danger. For example, an Alabama court found that a 16-year-old
boy may not have understood the dangers of exploring an abandoned clay pit
and the owner could be liable when the boy was injured. (Lyle v. Bouler, 547
So. 2d 506 (Ala. 1989).)

Here are some more examples, from actual lawsuits.

Example 1: A 12-year-old child climbed onto the roof of a building to play
and fell three stories to the ground. Ruled: The owner was liable, for these
reasons:

Children were known to play in the area.
The roof itself had an area that was sloped and slippery, something that a
child would not notice.
The owner could easily have locked the door to the roof. (Smallwood by
Smallwood v. Fornaciari, 560 N.E. 2d 637 (Ill. App. 1986).)

Example 2: A 10-year-old fell three stories from a roof after climbing up
and playing on it. Ruled: The owner was not legally responsible for the
child's injuries, because:

This owner had no reason to know that children would play on the roof.
No hidden danger on the roof itself caused the fall. (Corson by Lontz v.
Kosinski, 801 F. Supp. 75 (N.D. Ill. 1992).)

Example 3: During construction of a house, a contractor left sheetrock
propped against a wall and unattended. An 11-year-old girl, investigating
the building site, was injured when the sheetrock tumbled down on her.
Ruled: There were grounds for a lawsuit against the contractor, because:

Children were likely to come onto the building site.
The sheetrock was left unattended for days.
It could have easily been stacked in a safer manner. (Amora v. Lain, 725
S.W.2d 734 (Tex. App. 1986).)

Taking Precautions
The law doesn't require owners to childproof their properties. But it
expects people to be alert to potential dangers to children and to take
reasonable steps to prevent harm to those too young to understand the
danger.

Use Good Judgment
The best way to avoid tragic accidents is to use good common sense. If
something on your property fascinates neighborhood children, they can be
expected to trespass and investigate it if given the chance. Lock it up,
fence it or remove it. If an object is an accident waiting to happen -- a
ladder propped against a roof or a machine left running -- never leave it
unattended.

Ask your insurance agent what precautions you should take concerning
dangerous but necessary objects -- for instance, swimming pools, wells or
machinery. If the company requires a fence, install it, or you could lose
your coverage. And don't be surprised if your premiums increase for the
pleasure of having a pool, trampoline or other object.

If you are a concerned parent, this may be a good time to be a meddlesome
neighbor. Assume the neighbor wants to know about dangerous conditions, and
offer to help find a solution. If a law is being violated and the neighbor
won't cooperate, contact the appropriate authorities.






"GARY BEEZ" wrote in message
...
Hi all:

I have a 18'x15'x32" deep pond in front of my house on the side of the
walkway
leading to my front door. The pond/house is up on a hill about 100 feet
from
the road. Is there any insurance liability I should be conserned with?
Just
incase someone would fall in it. I would hate to have to put a fence
around it.
The top of the pond is about 12" above grade. I put a plant shelf all the
way
around it for just incase someone would fall in they could get out eazly.

Thanx
Gary

KenCo sez:
GARY BEEZ wrote:

Hi all:

I have a 18'x15'x32" deep pond in front of my house on the side of the walkway
leading to my front door. The pond/house is up on a hill about 100 feet from
the road. Is there any insurance liability I should be conserned with? Just
incase someone would fall in it. I would hate to have to put a fence around it.
The top of the pond is about 12" above grade. I put a plant shelf all the way
around it for just incase someone would fall in they could get out eazly.

Thanx
Gary

check w/ your city but "No Trespassing"
signs usually will cover inside the
"eminante domain" boundries

Are you sure? Seems to me that only protects you from criminal negligence,
not from civil liability where the prosecutorial bar is much lower.
Certainly it would be hard to convince a jury of parents that a "No
Trespassing" sign could be expected to prevent a 4-year-old from running
over from the next door neighbor's place to look at the pretty fishies.

Of course, in those cases Gary would want to ensure security for a stronger
reason: nobody wants a death on their property. It's bad for
peace-of-mind.

"Sam Hopkins" sez:
If you are a concerned parent, this may be a good time to be a meddlesome
neighbor. Assume the neighbor wants to know about dangerous conditions, and
offer to help find a solution. If a law is being violated and the neighbor
won't cooperate, contact the appropriate authorities.

I agree with everything you wrote but this last paragraph. If you are a
concerned parent because you're afraid your kids may get into trouble on
your neighbor's property, give them up for adoption; you're clearly an
unfit parent.

Better still, train your kids to behave better. Watch over them. If you
nag your neighbor to do your damned job, you will wind up much less happy
than if you just do it yourself.

Now, that said... if you are a concerned NEIGHBOR (i.e. not limited to
incompetent parents) with no children or well-behaved children who would
never get into such messes, but you've seen other kids in the neighborhood
with all the self-control of excited spaniel puppies not far from the
Pandora Box, then you might consider saying something like this...

"Joe, How ya doing? Hey, ya know those mutant rugrats on the scooters
that have been gettin' into everything lately? I saw some of the little
vermin playing around your (pond/shed/whiskey still) and thought to myself,
'There's a disaster waiting to happen.' I've tried talking to their
parents, but they're those yuppie types with the Volvos, ya know, and can't
hear nothing unless it's over a cell phone, so I was thinking... maybe a
hasp-and-lock or a fence? If you're up for it, I'll help next weekend;
I've been wanting to try my new cordless drill..."

Much better than some idiot new-age parent nagging their hapless neighbor.

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:50:10 -0500, Fringe Ryder wrote:

Of course, in those cases Gary would want to ensure security for a
stronger reason: nobody wants a death on their property. It's bad
for peace-of-mind.

You're right. That would ruin ponding for me.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Unofficial "Wizard of Odds," A.H.P.
Original PORG "Water Wizard," R.P.
"Wize(ned) Wizard," A.P.F-P-Y.
Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:03:14 -0500, Fringe Ryder wrote:

"Joe, How ya doing? Hey, ya know those mutant rugrats on the
scooters
that have been gettin' into everything lately? I saw some of the
little vermin playing around your (pond/shed/whiskey still) and
thought to myself, 'There's a disaster waiting to happen.' I've
tried talking to their parents, but they're those yuppie types with
the Volvos, ya know, and can't hear nothing unless it's over a cell
phone, so I was thinking... maybe a hasp-and-lock or a fence? If
you're up for it, I'll help next weekend; I've been wanting to try
my new cordless drill..."

Where in hell are the neighbors like you? Looking for a new place to
live? There's a house of those mutant rugrats next door that could
use a new place, too. We just need to convince 'em.

Cybe R. Wizard

--
Unofficial "Wizard of Odds," A.H.P.
Original PORG "Water Wizard," R.P.
"Wize(ned) Wizard," A.P.F-P-Y.
Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L

Kids were always fooling around my pond when we were away in spite of
the fact that our place is posted and fenced.

We finally bought extra insurance. Just in case. It only cost a few
dollars extra a year and if worse comes to worst, it is in place.

The kids have grown a lot so don't see any sign of them around any
more, but then I did tell them that if I found any more evidence, the
sherriff would be knocking on their door.

On 21 Apr 2003 18:18:18 GMT, (GARY BEEZ) wrote:

Hi all:

I have a 18'x15'x32" deep pond in front of my house on the side of the walkway
leading to my front door. The pond/house is up on a hill about 100 feet from
the road. Is there any insurance liability I should be conserned with? Just
incase someone would fall in it. I would hate to have to put a fence around it.
The top of the pond is about 12" above grade. I put a plant shelf all the way
around it for just incase someone would fall in they could get out eazly.

Thanx
Gary

I try to get the neighbors to put in their own ponds and I offer them free
taddies or fantail goldfish and will sell them plants cheap. So far the
kids have been pretty good, all they have to do is ask and I'll take them
out to feed the fish. ) ~ jan

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:38:42 GMT, wrote:

Kids were always fooling around my pond when we were away in spite of
the fact that our place is posted and fenced.

We finally bought extra insurance. Just in case. It only cost a few
dollars extra a year and if worse comes to worst, it is in place.

The kids have grown a lot so don't see any sign of them around any
more, but then I did tell them that if I found any more evidence, the
sherriff would be knocking on their door.



See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website


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