Here is an interesting artical on fish and pain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm

This brings up a good point. I guess there is no difference in hooking a
fish in the mouth and dragging it 100 feet to you and hooking your pet dog
in the mouth and dragging it 100 feet to you.

Sam

"vince candline" vjcandline@shawxxxzzz. wrote in message
. ..
Here is an interesting artical on fish and pain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:40:52 -0400, "Sam Hopkins"
wrote:
"vince candline" vjcandline@shawxxxzzz. wrote in message
...
Here is an interesting artical on fish and pain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm


This brings up a good point. I guess there is no difference in hooking a
fish in the mouth and dragging it 100 feet to you and hooking your pet dog
in the mouth and dragging it 100 feet to you.

Sam

Really?

If you hook a fish and try to reel it in, which way does the fish usually try
to go - away from you, or towards you?

And if you were to actually hook your pet dog in the mouth and start reeling
it in, which way do you think your pet would try to go - away from you, or
towards you?

Finally, if you were to actually hook your closest friend in the mouth and
start reeling him/her toward you, which way do you think he/she would try to
move?

/daytripper (Still think there's no difference?)

Here is an interesting artical on fish and pain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm


Ah, yes - that fine source of scientific journalism that also had an
article today, explaining "Why we are not like E.T.". Wouldn't have been a
bad discussion of DNA, except for the mention that humans are equipped
with "24 chromosomes".

(For the bio-challanged, it's 46, in 23 pairs, actually!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2985345.stm

Dave

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:02:07 -0500, "Cybe R. Wizard"
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:47:17 -0500, daytripper wrote:

On 30 Apr 2003 23:11:04 GMT, ode (EliezerE) wrote:

Daytripper, I don't get your point. If your best friend expected to
be eaten after hooking and dragging, I would assume he would try to
get away, just like a fish or dog.

OK, let's try it this way: if someone hooked you through the upper
lip with a nice sharp - let's make it a 2/0 stainless steel
sal****er - hook and started reeling you in, would instinctively try
to run the other way, or would you instead move quickly *towards*
the person with the reel?

I'd move /toward/ the reeler at speed and
Mr. T
pity the fool
/Mr. T
when I got there!

Cybe R. Wizard

Ah, there *are* sentient life forms here! Excellent! ;-)

"Gregory Young" wrote in message et...
I assume this thread started after the television ran coverage on an
experiment where a substance (I came in late so I didn't catch what it was)
was injected into the brain of cold water fish, and they reacted in a
fashion that the researchers described as "pain". duuuh.....
Some researchers are a piece of work!
It reminds me of my early days in training when the senior "experts" in
pediatrics said not to "waste time sedating babies" needing procedures "as
they don't feel the pain, they just demonstrate an instinctive response."
The sad thing is they really believed that for quite a few years!
It is interesting that none of us "younger" (then anyway) staff agreed with
them.
Kind of makes you wonder if some of the aggression/lack of empathy some
adults have may derive from certain childhood experiences doesn't it?
Happy ponding,
Greg


"Cybe R. Wizard" wrote in message
newsan.2003.04.30.23.53.19.274143.2593@WizardsTo wer...
On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:33:25 -0500, daytripper wrote:

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:02:07 -0500, "Cybe R. Wizard"
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:47:17 -0500, daytripper wrote:
...lilttle bit of schnipps
OK, let's try it this way: if someone hooked you through the upper
lip with a nice sharp - let's make it a 2/0 stainless steel
sal****er - hook and started reeling you in, would instinctively
try to run the other way, or would you instead move quickly
*towards* the person with the reel?

I'd move /toward/ the reeler at speed and Mr. T pity the fool
/Mr. T
when I got there!

Cybe R. Wizard

Ah, there *are* sentient life forms here! Excellent! ;-)

Dang! First time I've ever been called /that!/ Thanks but...
you don't know me well, do you? ;-}

Cybe R. Wizard

--
Unofficial "Wizard of Odds," A.H.P.
Original PORG "Water Wizard," R.P.
"Wize(ned) Wizard," A.P.F-P-Y.
Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L

I think that fish do feel the pain that a fish hook delivers as
thats why they jump about daft on the end of the line when caught.

"Gregory Young" wrote in message
t...
I assume this thread started after the television ran coverage on an
experiment where a substance (I came in late so I didn't catch what it
was)
was injected into the brain of cold water fish, and they reacted in a
fashion that the researchers described as "pain". duuuh.....
Some researchers are a piece of work!
It reminds me of my early days in training when the senior "experts" in
pediatrics said not to "waste time sedating babies" needing procedures "as
they don't feel the pain, they just demonstrate an instinctive response."
The sad thing is they really believed that for quite a few years!
It is interesting that none of us "younger" (then anyway) staff agreed
with
them.
Kind of makes you wonder if some of the aggression/lack of empathy some
adults have may derive from certain childhood experiences doesn't it?

Is there even a creature on the planet with a central nervous system that
doesn't feel pain? Is that possible? Sounds ludicrous to me.

BV.

"BenignVanilla" m wrote :

Is there even a creature on the planet with a central nervous system that
doesn't feel pain? Is that possible? Sounds ludicrous to me.

The theory (IIRC) is that pain is a conscious response to nerve
stimulation. People clearly feel pain because we say so. Many other animals
don't act as if they feel pain. They show aversion to damage, they show
incapacitation, but they don't act like the animals that feel pain act. As
long as they still function, and as long as the danger of additional damage
is past, they seem to behave normally.

So some people conclude that their brains are not wired to have a
conscious response to nerve stimulation (which makes sense, because what
would they do with it?). All they seem to have are non-conscious,
instinctual responses.


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"Bill" wrote in message
om...

"BenignVanilla" m wrote :

Is there even a creature on the planet with a central nervous system
that
doesn't feel pain? Is that possible? Sounds ludicrous to me.

The theory (IIRC) is that pain is a conscious response to nerve
stimulation. People clearly feel pain because we say so. Many other
animals
don't act as if they feel pain. They show aversion to damage, they show
incapacitation, but they don't act like the animals that feel pain act. As
long as they still function, and as long as the danger of additional
damage
is past, they seem to behave normally.

So some people conclude that their brains are not wired to have a
conscious response to nerve stimulation (which makes sense, because what
would they do with it?). All they seem to have are non-conscious,
instinctual responses.

What is an example of such a beast? IMHO, pain is a necessary part of our
subconscious, like breathing. Without pain, I could sit on a sharp spike and
bleed to death before I even knew what happened. With pain, I jump away and
cry like a baby instead of unknowingly impale myself. I would think all
higher level creatures, with nervous systems, would act the same. Now how we
deal with pain is different. Brand a horse, and he'll fuss but be OK...brand
me...and I'll kick yer ass and then whine about the pain for at least 3
days. *laugh* That doesn't mean the horse felt no pain.

BV.

well the scientists were from the Royal Society, so we probably arent talking about
somebody paid by PETA to come up with nonsense. OTOH, journalists can totally screw
up and rewrite what scientists actually publish. The AR people of course dont worry
about facts at all.

Watch a fish when it is grabbed by a heron or when it is beached. when it comes to
movement fish dont have much choice but back and forth. They even do this when I got
to pick them up and check em over and I am not hurting them as I do this either.

Pain is not just having the receptors in the skin ... Ingrid


(lynnmarie) wrote:
I think that fish do feel the pain that a fish hook delivers as
thats why they jump about daft on the end of the line when caught.

"BenignVanilla" m wrote :

So some people conclude that their brains are not wired to have a
conscious response to nerve stimulation (which makes sense, because what
would they do with it?). All they seem to have are non-conscious,
instinctual responses.

What is an example of such a beast? IMHO, pain is a necessary part of our
subconscious, like breathing.

Right, sub-conscious or non-conscious. That's the response to nerve
stimulation, not pain. Pain is what we think about nerve stimulation.

Without pain, I could sit on a sharp spike and
bleed to death before I even knew what happened.

Without nerve stimulation and an instinctual -or- a reasoned response
you could. But pain is the consciousness of nerve stimulation, not the
stimulation itself nor the reaction.

Just like nerves are stimulated in the eyes, but it is the brain which
sees and reacts.





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"vince candline" vjcandline@shawxxxzzz. wrote in message
. ..
Here is an interesting artical on fish and pain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm

We know animals respond to negative stimuli, however I don't know if being
caught on a fishing lure, or being shot by a hunters rifle is going to
trigger a painful response from an animal. It would not surprise me if the
fish went into shock after being caught.

Humans don't feel immediately after being in bad accidents, because shock
blocks the brain from recognizing the pain.

A fish's brain may recognize, a certain stimuli is bad, and the brain may
say go somewhere else. But I doubt the brain says, "go round up the boys,
and introduce the fisherman to a Louisville slugger"

Sameer

"Gregory Young" wrote :

I haven't formed a conclusion on that, but I will always err on the
side of assuming a living organsim feels pain, and act accordingly.

Me too... Unless there's butter and a skillet waiting by the fire... and
maybe a little red pepper.




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"Bill" wrote in message
news

"BenignVanilla" m wrote :

I guess the way I look at it, if I could just not "think" about it, pain
would not be an issue, but I don't think we have that choice.

We do. I've had dental work under hypnosis without Novocain. It's
fairly
common.
snip

And when I walk into the room and Oprah is on the TV, I can block it
out...but she's still there.

BV.

took em long enough to figure that fish feel pain, I remember several
years ago when they proved plants feel pain


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico
If it can't be fixed with bailing wire or duct tape
its not worth fixing

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com