There have been a couple of posts lately about algae
described like this. Or describing algae that forms in lumps that
break up and dissolve on contact. Or describing algae the has a
really disgusting smell ...

Any of these posts could in fact be describing
cyanobacteria, also known as Blue-Green Algae. Cyanobacteria, as
the name says, is more accurately a bacteria than an algae.
Though it certainly appears like algae it is best to think of it
as bacteria that has developed the ability to produce its own
food through photosynthesis. Some, though by no means all are
actually toxic, currently the is a bit of a crisis on the
California coast, hundreds of seals and otters are sick after
eating fish and shellfish poisoned by this stuff.

Because of its unique abilities it is extremely difficult
to deal with, most traditional methods of algae control simply
don't work. Tinting the water and increasing shade is
ineffective, because it can move about and adjust its buoyancy
(one of the reasons it often floats up overnight) it will simply
migrate to the areas where there is light. It is very tolerant of
differing water conditions and can survive in conditions that
would kill fish or other plants, (it was one of the first
organisms to appear on earth, when the planet was still
inhospitable to most life). Like other animals it is able to
store the nutrients it needs when there is a surplus (Many of the
"nitrogen fixing bacteria" you want in your soil are
cyanobacteria) so massive, frequent water changes may help but
will not eliminate the problem.

The best way to proceed after removing excess decaying
material from the bottom of the pond is to combine physical
removal of the Cyanobacteria while encouraging the growth of
higher plants.

Cyanobacteria is uni-cellular (though it often grows in
colonies) so it is difficult to mechanically separate it from the
water, fortunately those cells are fairly large so a fine filter
like quilt batting will work (Though if you put the quilt batting
in your bio filter you need to change it regularly and be aware
that this may damage the "good bacteria" that are colonizing your
filter.)
You should also gently skim clumps off the surface with
something like an old nylon stocking (the finer the better).

Encourage your existing plants to grow and if necessary add more
plants, over time the higher plants will out compete the
cyanobacteria for the nutrients in the water... (which is pretty
much what has happened over the entire planet and is a good
solution to most algae problems).

You should also make water changes, but be aware that some water
sources contain phosphates (Some sources I've read suggest that
Cyanobacteria blooms in high phosphate conditions, primarily
because it can store nitrogen compounds)

I've also heard of people controlling it with small doses of
copper sulphate, though this is dangerous as even a small
overdose can kill your biofilter, invertebrates, plants and fish.

In a small pond or an aquarium it can be effectively controlled
with doses of Erythromycin (called Myacin as aquarium medication)
double the duration of the treatment from that listed on the
package. (This can get Very expensive Very quickly)...

Anyway if that was not already too much info you can check out
these links


http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanointro.html

http://www-cyanosite.bio.purdue.edu/

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ehp/ehd/catal.../iyh/algea.htm

Subject: Floating Clumps of Flourescent Green Algae
From: ajames54

I've got this post saved!
thanks :-)


k30a

ajames54 wrote:
There have been a couple of posts lately about algae
described like this. Or describing algae that forms in lumps that
break up and dissolve on contact. Or describing algae the has a
really disgusting smell ...

Any of these posts could in fact be describing
cyanobacteria, also known as Blue-Green Algae. Cyanobacteria, as
the name says, is more accurately a bacteria than an algae.
Though it certainly appears like algae it is best to think of it
as bacteria that has developed the ability to produce its own
food through photosynthesis. Some, though by no means all are
actually toxic, currently the is a bit of a crisis on the
California coast, hundreds of seals and otters are sick after
eating fish and shellfish poisoned by this stuff.


for a discussin of this and treatment with copper sulfate of a large
pond do a google in rec.ponds for John Rutz, Rod Farlee, and
cyanobacteria
I had a infestation of that last summer and Rod came up with the proper
dose for my pond it did not harm the plants or fish although it probly
set back the plants some

a little math would probly come up with the proper dose for another
sized pond

John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Ahhh POO! check out http://community.webshots.com/user/dragnp , Mystery
Algae. Does that look like the same stuff (as in your links) to you?

Lee

"ajames54" wrote in message
...

There have been a couple of posts lately about algae
described like this. Or describing algae that forms in lumps that
break up and dissolve on contact. Or describing algae the has a
really disgusting smell ...

Any of these posts could in fact be describing
cyanobacteria, also known as Blue-Green Algae. Cyanobacteria, as
the name says, is more accurately a bacteria than an algae.
Though it certainly appears like algae it is best to think of it
as bacteria that has developed the ability to produce its own
food through photosynthesis. Some, though by no means all are
actually toxic, currently the is a bit of a crisis on the
California coast, hundreds of seals and otters are sick after
eating fish and shellfish poisoned by this stuff.

Because of its unique abilities it is extremely difficult
to deal with, most traditional methods of algae control simply
don't work. Tinting the water and increasing shade is
ineffective, because it can move about and adjust its buoyancy
(one of the reasons it often floats up overnight) it will simply
migrate to the areas where there is light. It is very tolerant of
differing water conditions and can survive in conditions that
would kill fish or other plants, (it was one of the first
organisms to appear on earth, when the planet was still
inhospitable to most life). Like other animals it is able to
store the nutrients it needs when there is a surplus (Many of the
"nitrogen fixing bacteria" you want in your soil are
cyanobacteria) so massive, frequent water changes may help but
will not eliminate the problem.

The best way to proceed after removing excess decaying
material from the bottom of the pond is to combine physical
removal of the Cyanobacteria while encouraging the growth of
higher plants.

Cyanobacteria is uni-cellular (though it often grows in
colonies) so it is difficult to mechanically separate it from the
water, fortunately those cells are fairly large so a fine filter
like quilt batting will work (Though if you put the quilt batting
in your bio filter you need to change it regularly and be aware
that this may damage the "good bacteria" that are colonizing your
filter.)
You should also gently skim clumps off the surface with
something like an old nylon stocking (the finer the better).

Encourage your existing plants to grow and if necessary add more
plants, over time the higher plants will out compete the
cyanobacteria for the nutrients in the water... (which is pretty
much what has happened over the entire planet and is a good
solution to most algae problems).

You should also make water changes, but be aware that some water
sources contain phosphates (Some sources I've read suggest that
Cyanobacteria blooms in high phosphate conditions, primarily
because it can store nitrogen compounds)

I've also heard of people controlling it with small doses of
copper sulphate, though this is dangerous as even a small
overdose can kill your biofilter, invertebrates, plants and fish.

In a small pond or an aquarium it can be effectively controlled
with doses of Erythromycin (called Myacin as aquarium medication)
double the duration of the treatment from that listed on the
package. (This can get Very expensive Very quickly)...

Anyway if that was not already too much info you can check out
these links


http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanointro.html

http://www-cyanosite.bio.purdue.edu/

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ehp/ehd/catal.../iyh/algea.htm

On 11 Jun 2003 15:51:38 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Ahhh POO! check out http://community.webshots.com/user/dragnp , Mystery
Algae. Does that look like the same stuff (as in your links) to you?

Lee




Sadly yes... the 400x shot looks a lot like some of the shots in
the image gallery of the purdue site...



http://www-cyanosite.bio.purdue.edu/

ajames54 wrote:
On 11 Jun 2003 15:51:38 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:


Ahhh POO! check out http://community.webshots.com/user/dragnp , Mystery
Algae. Does that look like the same stuff (as in your links) to you?

Lee





Sadly yes... the 400x shot looks a lot like some of the shots in
the image gallery of the purdue site...


http://www-cyanosite.bio.purdue.edu/





if it is the blue green algae here is the treatment from last summr

The methods available today that do work include:
1) prevention (keep phosphate low by having lots of biofiltration),
2) copper sulfate treatment (1 ppm) to kill algae,
3) in earthen ponds, gypsum to maintain 200 ppm hardness.
- Rod
--





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

ajames54 wrote:


There have been a couple of posts lately about algae
described like this. Or describing algae that forms in lumps that
break up and dissolve on contact. Or describing algae the has a
really disgusting smell ...

Any of these posts could in fact be describing
cyanobacteria, also known as Blue-Green Algae. Cyanobacteria, as
the name says, is more accurately a bacteria than an algae.
Though it certainly appears like algae it is best to think of it
as bacteria that has developed the ability to produce its own
food through photosynthesis. Some, though by no means all are
actually toxic, currently the is a bit of a crisis on the
California coast, hundreds of seals and otters are sick after
eating fish and shellfish poisoned by this stuff.

Some species of bluegreen algae (and other algal groups) produce
toxins that are harmful to aquatic wildlife and even humans. The vast
majortiy do not. Most that do are marine, not freshwater species.
This means that those most commonly found in backyard ponds are not
going to cause this problem: your koi and goldfish are exceptionally
unlikely to die from such toxins. Dissolved oxygen and pH shifts are
the real danger.

Because of its unique abilities it is extremely difficult
to deal with, most traditional methods of algae control simply
don't work. Tinting the water and increasing shade is
ineffective, because it can move about and adjust its buoyancy
(one of the reasons it often floats up overnight) it will simply
migrate to the areas where there is light. It is very tolerant of
differing water conditions and can survive in conditions that
would kill fish or other plants, (it was one of the first
organisms to appear on earth, when the planet was still
inhospitable to most life). Like other animals it is able to
store the nutrients it needs when there is a surplus (Many of the
"nitrogen fixing bacteria" you want in your soil are
cyanobacteria) so massive, frequent water changes may help but
will not eliminate the problem.

Again, this is true for some bluegreen algae, but not all. Most
species that become problematic in backyard ponds are susceptible to
the same control techniques applied when managing green algae. There
are exceptions.

The best way to proceed after removing excess decaying
material from the bottom of the pond is to combine physical
removal of the Cyanobacteria while encouraging the growth of
higher plants.

pulls out soapbox. It's the nutrients. Manage the nutrients (this
includes the above mentioned methods in combination with others) and
the algae will not be a problem.

Cyanobacteria is uni-cellular (though it often grows in
colonies) so it is difficult to mechanically separate it from the
water, fortunately those cells are fairly large so a fine filter
like quilt batting will work (Though if you put the quilt batting
in your bio filter you need to change it regularly and be aware
that this may damage the "good bacteria" that are colonizing your
filter.)
You should also gently skim clumps off the surface with
something like an old nylon stocking (the finer the better).

A note: green algae are also unicellular, and exist that way (pea
soup), as colonies (pea soup and clumps), or as filaments (string
algae), dependent on species. Bluegreen algae, dependent upon
species, exists in the same forms. Not all species are filterable.

Encourage your existing plants to grow and if necessary add more
plants, over time the higher plants will out compete the
cyanobacteria for the nutrients in the water... (which is pretty
much what has happened over the entire planet and is a good
solution to most algae problems).

You should also make water changes, but be aware that some water
sources contain phosphates (Some sources I've read suggest that
Cyanobacteria blooms in high phosphate conditions, primarily
because it can store nitrogen compounds)

Yeah.

I've also heard of people controlling it with small doses of
copper sulphate, though this is dangerous as even a small
overdose can kill your biofilter, invertebrates, plants and fish.


Yeah. Chelated copper compounds are more effective, but the same
problem exists: it doesn't take much of a dose change to harm other
aquatic denizens.

In a small pond or an aquarium it can be effectively controlled
with doses of Erythromycin (called Myacin as aquarium medication)
double the duration of the treatment from that listed on the
package. (This can get Very expensive Very quickly)...

Use of antiobiotics in aquaculture is common. However, using such
products in a backyard pond can destroy the balance many have
attempted to achieve, especially those employing biofilters.

Anyway if that was not already too much info you can check out
these links


http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanointro.html

http://www-cyanosite.bio.purdue.edu/

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ehp/ehd/catal.../iyh/algea.htm

I've got to shorten this post, or it will get out of hand and I won't be
able to follow it any more.

"GD" wrote in message

"Dissolved oxygen and pH shifts are the real danger.": I've got that
covered. Plenty of air (although it cost me fish the first time I had a
bloom, which is WHY I now have plenty of air!) and I keep my pH stable at
8.3 with baking soda (KH 200)

"This means that those most commonly found in backyard ponds are not going
to cause this problem: your koi and goldfish are exceptionally unlikely to
die from such toxins. " I already figured that part out: they're not dead!
This stuff is not poisonous to my fish, it just looks ugly, Ugly, UGLY!

"(it was one of the first organisms to appear on earth, when the planet was
still inhospitable to most life)" I don't *care* that it evolved from the
Priomordial Soup! I want it OUT of my pond!

"The best way to proceed after removing excess decaying material from the
bottom of the pond is to combine physical removal of the Cyanobacteria while
encouraging the growth of higher plants.

"pulls out soapbox. It's the nutrients. Manage the nutrients (this
includes the above mentioned methods in combination with others) and the
algae will not be a problem." Therein lies a problem: I have NO plants in
the actual pond area. I am trying something different this year, going for
the actual KOI POND instead of the watergarden/fish pond. There are plants
in the waterfall/stream area, but not the actual pond itself.

Here's another problem: my water source (water utility) changed to
chloramine a year ago. It's been giving me fits with my water changes.
Although they're only supposed to be adding 3 ppm, they've added as much as
*9* ppm, which puts my ammonia and nitrItes off the chart. When I get them
in control, my nitrAtes are completely skewed. I don't know HOW high they
are right now, as my chart only goes to 160 ppm, but it's higher than that.
Also, they've started adding phosphate for some unknown reason. And now I
have the bloom.

I filter-filter-filter the algae from the skimmer box. I clean it twice a
day. I collect all I can. The bottom is squeaky clean: the only thing the
fish raise off the bottom when they graze is the damn algae! UV has no
affect on it. Additional water changes will not help, due to the blasted
phosphates being added to the water.

If Chelated Copper will do the trick, where can I get it and how much do I
need to put in a 1200 gal. pond?

Lee



Cyanobacteria is uni-cellular (though it often grows in
colonies) so it is difficult to mechanically separate it from the
water, fortunately those cells are fairly large so a fine filter
like quilt batting will work (Though if you put the quilt batting
in your bio filter you need to change it regularly and be aware
that this may damage the "good bacteria" that are colonizing your
filter.)
You should also gently skim clumps off the surface with
something like an old nylon stocking (the finer the better).

A note: green algae are also unicellular, and exist that way (pea
soup), as colonies (pea soup and clumps), or as filaments (string
algae), dependent on species. Bluegreen algae, dependent upon
species, exists in the same forms. Not all species are filterable.

Encourage your existing plants to grow and if necessary add more
plants, over time the higher plants will out compete the
cyanobacteria for the nutrients in the water... (which is pretty
much what has happened over the entire planet and is a good
solution to most algae problems).

You should also make water changes, but be aware that some water
sources contain phosphates (Some sources I've read suggest that
Cyanobacteria blooms in high phosphate conditions, primarily
because it can store nitrogen compounds)

Yeah.

I've also heard of people controlling it with small doses of
copper sulphate, though this is dangerous as even a small
overdose can kill your biofilter, invertebrates, plants and fish.


Yeah. Chelated copper compounds are more effective, but the same
problem exists: it doesn't take much of a dose change to harm other
aquatic denizens.

In a small pond or an aquarium it can be effectively controlled
with doses of Erythromycin (called Myacin as aquarium medication)
double the duration of the treatment from that listed on the
package. (This can get Very expensive Very quickly)...

Use of antiobiotics in aquaculture is common. However, using such
products in a backyard pond can destroy the balance many have
attempted to achieve, especially those employing biofilters.

Anyway if that was not already too much info you can check out
these links


http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanointro.html

http://www-cyanosite.bio.purdue.edu/

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ehp/ehd/catal.../iyh/algea.htm

John, I replied to GD's response in more detail, but I can't do anything
about the phospates because they're adding it to my damn water source!
Copper sulfate/chelated copper: how do I achieve the 1 pppm?

Lee

"John Rutz" wrote in message
...


ajames54 wrote:
There have been a couple of posts lately about algae
described like this. Or describing algae that forms in lumps that
break up and dissolve on contact. Or describing algae the has a
really disgusting smell ...

Any of these posts could in fact be describing
cyanobacteria, also known as Blue-Green Algae. Cyanobacteria, as
the name says, is more accurately a bacteria than an algae.
Though it certainly appears like algae it is best to think of it
as bacteria that has developed the ability to produce its own
food through photosynthesis. Some, though by no means all are
actually toxic, currently the is a bit of a crisis on the
California coast, hundreds of seals and otters are sick after
eating fish and shellfish poisoned by this stuff.


for a discussin of this and treatment with copper sulfate of a large
pond do a google in rec.ponds for John Rutz, Rod Farlee, and
cyanobacteria
I had a infestation of that last summer and Rod came up with the proper
dose for my pond it did not harm the plants or fish although it probly
set back the plants some

a little math would probly come up with the proper dose for another
sized pond

John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Lee Brouillet wrote:
John, I replied to GD's response in more detail, but I can't do
anything about the phospates because they're adding it to my damn
water source! Copper sulfate/chelated copper: how do I achieve the 1
pppm?

Lee

"John Rutz" wrote in message
...

when rod gave me the dose we figured muy pond to be 5000 gal and used 3
1/12 lb cans over a three day period working it out I came up with
roughly 1/2 lb per 100 gallons

this won't suposedly hurt your plants but be very carefull with it and
be prepared to do a major water change when your done

Carol dumped a couple cans in my pond because she thought the pyloalgae
i had (green) was looking dark woke up next am to a brown pond as it
killed all the algae and caused a 02 crash
thank god for all the aeriation I have



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

On 12 Jun 2003 09:46:54 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

I've got to shorten this post, or it will get out of hand and I won't be
able to follow it any more.

SNIP...
lets treat this as an aside then...

Do you know what your phosphate levels are? There are commercial
products available that will remove phosphates from your water...
in many cases they are prohibitively expensive, and many are some
form of aluminum oxide (which may damage your Biofilter)... Kent
Marine makes one called "phosphate sponge" which claims to bring
phosphate down from 1 ppm to .05 ppm within a matter of hours...
and not leach aluminum into the water. The cost is about $10 per
100 gallons.

I wonder if GD knows... but it has always struck me that a good
aggressive protean skimmer should work to remove the free
floating varieties...

I don't know how much phosphate is actually in there, only that they've been
adding it. Additionally, after all the ammonia and nitrIte spikes, my
nitrAtes are 160 (which is as high as the goes).

It's no wonder that I have this algae problem; it's a wonder I don't have
OTHERS! The phosphate sponge by Kent: I can buy 5 gallons of it for $87.40,
which will do 2500 gallons of water (I have 1200), but I will also need an
800 micron mesh bag to keep it in. ProLine's Phosphate Remover will do
roughly the same gallons for $58.70, and is larger (but I don't know if it's
rechargable), but it will also take the level down to 0.2 mg/l. Are you
familiar with it?

Lee

"ajames54" wrote in message
...
On 12 Jun 2003 09:46:54 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

I've got to shorten this post, or it will get out of hand and I won't be
able to follow it any more.

SNIP...
lets treat this as an aside then...

Do you know what your phosphate levels are? There are commercial
products available that will remove phosphates from your water...
in many cases they are prohibitively expensive, and many are some
form of aluminum oxide (which may damage your Biofilter)... Kent
Marine makes one called "phosphate sponge" which claims to bring
phosphate down from 1 ppm to .05 ppm within a matter of hours...
and not leach aluminum into the water. The cost is about $10 per
100 gallons.

I wonder if GD knows... but it has always struck me that a good
aggressive protean skimmer should work to remove the free
floating varieties...

On 12 Jun 2003 14:05:10 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

I don't know how much phosphate is actually in there, only that they've been
adding it. Additionally, after all the ammonia and nitrIte spikes, my
nitrAtes are 160 (which is as high as the goes).

It's no wonder that I have this algae problem; it's a wonder I don't have
OTHERS! The phosphate sponge by Kent: I can buy 5 gallons of it for $87.40,
which will do 2500 gallons of water (I have 1200), but I will also need an
800 micron mesh bag to keep it in. ProLine's Phosphate Remover will do
roughly the same gallons for $58.70, and is larger (but I don't know if it's
rechargable), but it will also take the level down to 0.2 mg/l. Are you
familiar with it?

I've not seen the ProLine product but I've been lucky in that my
water source is just about phosphate free, so if the levels ever
got any where near high enough to worry about I would just change
more water...

I hope it works for you, you should get a test kit just to follow
the levels of phosphate over time..and post the results.

That is actually a reasonable price compared to what they were
asking when I first looked at that type of product, if it brings
the levels down to where they say it does then there will
probably be more than a few ponders knocking on their doors.

Well, I just ordered a phosphate test kit, a HIGH nitrAte test kit,
something called Bio Denitrator (supposed to deal with the nitrAtes) and 2
gallons of the Pro-Line Phosphate Remover. And because I live (reasonably)
close to AES, I should have it tomorrow when I get home from work. That
should keep me busy for the weekend (grumble, grumble, grumble). I hope it
works.

Lee
"ajames54" wrote in message
...
On 12 Jun 2003 09:46:54 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

I've got to shorten this post, or it will get out of hand and I won't be
able to follow it any more.

SNIP...
lets treat this as an aside then...

Do you know what your phosphate levels are? There are commercial
products available that will remove phosphates from your water...
in many cases they are prohibitively expensive, and many are some
form of aluminum oxide (which may damage your Biofilter)... Kent
Marine makes one called "phosphate sponge" which claims to bring
phosphate down from 1 ppm to .05 ppm within a matter of hours...
and not leach aluminum into the water. The cost is about $10 per
100 gallons.

I wonder if GD knows... but it has always struck me that a good
aggressive protean skimmer should work to remove the free
floating varieties...

In article ,
"Lee Brouillet" wrote:

Well, I just ordered a phosphate test kit, a HIGH nitrAte test kit,
something called Bio Denitrator (supposed to deal with the nitrAtes) and 2
gallons of the Pro-Line Phosphate Remover. And because I live (reasonably)
close to AES, I should have it tomorrow when I get home from work. That
should keep me busy for the weekend (grumble, grumble, grumble). I hope it
works.

Do you have lots of Water Hyacinths... lots ?

Most of these phosphate products are good at removing low levels to
zero, like in a marine reef environment (but RO water is a far better
choice).

Can you vac the bottom ?

jay
Thu, Jun 12, 2003




Lee
"ajames54" wrote in message
...
On 12 Jun 2003 09:46:54 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

I've got to shorten this post, or it will get out of hand and I won't be
able to follow it any more.

SNIP...
lets treat this as an aside then...

Do you know what your phosphate levels are? There are commercial
products available that will remove phosphates from your water...
in many cases they are prohibitively expensive, and many are some
form of aluminum oxide (which may damage your Biofilter)... Kent
Marine makes one called "phosphate sponge" which claims to bring
phosphate down from 1 ppm to .05 ppm within a matter of hours...
and not leach aluminum into the water. The cost is about $10 per
100 gallons.

I wonder if GD knows... but it has always struck me that a good
aggressive protean skimmer should work to remove the free
floating varieties...




--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."