Do you have a skimmer on that pond?
Any water movement?Or do you net it from fall to spring?Just wondering about
the mechanics ofit all.The Frog Bog is rocked but with no movement,skimmer
or netting

No... it is a 2500 gallon goldfish pond with 35 feet of stream and a veggie
filter pond that then drops down a 5foot waterfall. No other filtration
system needed......Has about 30 large and small goldfish I would
guess......Jerri

http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

I've sent the comments on from all folks, though I'm waiting on Jerri
regarding her weather conditions. If anyone else has something to add,
please do and I'll send him more info tell he cries Uncle. ;o)

Woops sorry.....I am in Georgia....so it is very hot and humid. All the ponds
are in full sun, and I run only a pump into veggie filters for filtration....no
other systems. In the summer the water temps sometimes reach 90. I do have
lots of plants not only in the filter ponds, but in the fish ponds. I have
about 30 goldfish of different sizes, and 13 koi with several being over 24
inches. Jerri

http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

How do you keep debris out of it?
I picture you in the south with huge
trees all around your property ;-)
My mom and dad lived in Baton Rouge
after I was married and I always picture
big beautiful trees when I think of the south.



k30a

UTVOLVET84 wrote:

but in the end I
think the design involving attaching a rubber liner to a plastic tub is
flawed.

I put mine together myself. Followed the directions of the manufacturer and
have never had a problem.

Joe



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Thanks Jerri & Joe for the additional comments.

It sounds like the fellow I'm advising is doing more researching and
talking to a lot of people so I think he'll be okay. The only thing I'm
hoping is he'll take the advice to wait on the rocks in the pond. We'll
see. ;o) ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

My biggest concern with the AS system is that they severely limit your
choices of pond treatments when things go bad. Formalin is an oxidizer, as
is PP, and both are neutralized by the mulm in the pond.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"~ jan" wrote in message
s.com...
Thanks Jerri & Joe for the additional comments.

It sounds like the fellow I'm advising is doing more researching and
talking to a lot of people so I think he'll be okay. The only thing I'm
hoping is he'll take the advice to wait on the rocks in the pond. We'll
see. ;o) ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

UT.... Good luck in court..I myself have had to go behind a certain company
here that uses the ASSystem, only to find the same problem with the
waterfall and skimmer sections are not sealed properly..If you watch their
video you can see the mistakes there. Most Landscape Co.'s use this
videotape to train their people on how to install a pond...I know because I
went to a" mulch & cut " company and applied for a job to see what the heck
was going on.... The only thing they tried to train me in was that dreaded
20 step process...........So I applied at yet another and the same damn
video was shoved in my hand to watch...Sort of a little undercover
work......Its crazy what some people will do.......




"UTVOLVET84" wrote in message
...
I had an Aquascapes system professionally installed two years ago. From
the
very start there was a leak at the point that the liner attached to the
biofall
tub. After numerous attempts to get the installer to fix it we ended up
having
someone else completely rebuild the system. So far, so good, but it cost
us
more then $1000 to get everything redone. We are planning to take the
original
installer to court over his lack of response to the problem but in the end
I
think the design involving attaching a rubber liner to a plastic tub is
flawed.
Donna

That is quite an interesting way to do research so I had to send it along
to this fellow. ;o) ~ jan

On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 03:53:45 GMT, "Springworks"
wrote:

UT.... Good luck in court..I myself have had to go behind a certain company
here that uses the ASSystem, only to find the same problem with the
waterfall and skimmer sections are not sealed properly..If you watch their
video you can see the mistakes there. Most Landscape Co.'s use this
videotape to train their people on how to install a pond...I know because I
went to a" mulch & cut " company and applied for a job to see what the heck
was going on.... The only thing they tried to train me in was that dreaded
20 step process...........So I applied at yet another and the same damn
video was shoved in my hand to watch...Sort of a little undercover
work......Its crazy what some people will do.......




"UTVOLVET84" wrote in message
...
I had an Aquascapes system professionally installed two years ago. From
the
very start there was a leak at the point that the liner attached to the
biofall
tub. After numerous attempts to get the installer to fix it we ended up
having
someone else completely rebuild the system. So far, so good, but it cost
us
more then $1000 to get everything redone. We are planning to take the
original
installer to court over his lack of response to the problem but in the end
I
think the design involving attaching a rubber liner to a plastic tub is
flawed.
Donna



See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Hi all:
I have received a FD present (surprise) from my wife, of an AS ornamental
water garden. Looked pretty. I smiled, and thanked her.. then tried to
figure how I could fix it..
Found the solution.. I had her help me "clean" the pond in the spring. We
drained the pond, and cleaned the gravel (about 3 - 4 inches deep small
stone.. the usual AS addition.)
After smelling the stench (H2S primarily), my wife realized "the fish were
swimming in a septic tank" (we have one, she knows the smell when it is
drained), and agreed to allow me to remove the bottom rock/gravel.. Of
course then I convinced here we should go deeper, get bottom drains
installed, go with Koi, and it all began! Sneaky of me hugh?
The rock/gravel bottom was beautiful, and did look clean.. no disagreements
there.
You can not imagine the job I had.. using a 5 gallon bucket, with numerous
holes drilled to allow water to flow out, getting into the then 17 x 17
pond, and getting the gravel out.. 1/2 bucket at a time. It took a long
time.. esp. as they had delivered the rock with a truck, and wheelbarrowed
it in.
I got my exercise that summer!
I kept the best features AS uses (but they didn't invent them).. the
biofalls, and skimmer, but hooked in that a bead filter, added bottom drains
that feed a stream (which is designed to be trickle filter), which dumps
into bog and back into pond. 2 discrete systems, which are doing great.
I am pressed for time, so forgive me, the following is a paste of info I
sent this NG last spring on this subject.
My next post will be a reprint of a Koi USA article. Hope this all helps.
Here is one of my previous posts on gravel on the bottom of ponds:

From: "Gregory Young"
Subject: GRAVEL ON LINER IN POND??
Date: Sunday, May 20, 2001 10:31 AM

This subject stimulates a great deal of discussion, as people have opinions,
based on "what they have, or works for them", rather than based on
scientific trials/studies.
A good site that offers both sides of the argument I found is:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rosieda...e/writing.html
A couple of points I will add to the discussion:
1) The rock "craze" comes from the very successful "Aquascape school of
ponding". The owner of Aquascape has setup a very lucrative business based
on an excellent marketing approach.. to take all of the components used to
setup water gardens, put them together in a package, and sell them to
nurseries across the country. Further they (Aquascape) offers "how to"
sessions that teach the nurseries through seminars how to install an average
pond, using their approach (they use rocks to "protect the liner bottom from
the effects of uv irradiation". Nice hype, but short wavelength uv doesn't
cause any significant damage to anything under 2 feet of water!), then state
that the average 2 foot deep pond installation can net a nursery $6,000 -
$7,500! Those numbers come from the Aquascape video which nurseries receive
when they purchase an Aquascape system. The tape encourages them to attend
an Aquascape seminar, to learn the tricks of installation, etc. Since I
don't have the video in front of me, and have only seen it once 2 years ago,
I may be slightly off on the dollar amount but I'm close enough to make my
point.
2) I dive, formerly as part of my profession, now as a hobby. I can assure
you most of the bottoms of bodies of water (except in certain areas of rock
outcroppings), are not covered with rock! They are covered with sediment,
which accumulates over time. For those with farm ponds, you know what I am
speaking of, which is why without bottom aeration farms ponds eventually
need to be drained and cleaned out, usually by bulldozers.
3) Many streams, or other shallow bodies, where there is flowing water, will
have rocky bottoms, as the flow of water keeps the sediments from
depositing.
4) The reason many "ponders" can get away with a rocky bottom, without the
buildup of hydrogen sulfide, and other anaerobic decomposition products (ie
methane, etc), is the depth of the pond is so shallow, 2 feet or less, that
the action of their Aquascape/ related skimmer system gets enough water flow
going to help remove some of the smaller solids/DOC before they deposit on
the bottom and get trapped between the rocks. Obviously larger solids can
accumulate, which is why Aquascape, as part of their dealer seminars,
emphasizes surface nets during the autumn to keep out larger debris, as part
of their recommendations.
5) The nurseries are also instructed they can get an additional several
hundred $$ to "open the ponds" of their customers each spring, which
involves several hours of draining the pond, power washing the stony bottom
and sides of the water garden, then refilling with "fresh water". They then
sell the customer the (expensive in my opinion) bacteria necessary to
"start-up the filter", which of course was destroyed when they power washed
the stone, both on the bottom and lining the sides of the water garden.
My opinion.. customers are being taken financial advantage of by some of the
dealers in this fashion, etc by charging for services that the average
customer could do, if the system was set up to allow this..
I must add if people are happy with what they have, then that's fine.. they
are just paying more to have "professionals" take care of their water
gardens than the "do it yourselfers".
We all are different, which makes life so interesting, and exciting at
times. The best examples of this are seen during your local club's annual
water garden tours. You see some great ideas and initiatives!
IMHO, if you keep the depth 2 feet or less, you can get away without a
bottom drain, and can use rocks without any problems. Shallow gardens like
that are really Goldfish oriented, more than Koi.
Yes, (I will say this to avoid starting a flame war) people can keep Koi in
them, but Koi are better suited for ponds at least 3 feet in depth of more..
but that is another discussion.
In summary, pick what you want (rock vs. rock free), and enjoy your
garden/pond!
The more educated you are, the better you can make decisions that will meet
your individual needs, and the needs of your watery pets.
People it seems best learn from their experiences, both good and bad, but I
would hope each of you reads, reads and reads! In this way the experience of
others can help you benefit from their mistakes in advance.
There is no single right or wrong way to create your garden, but there are
ways that can help you avoid problems later on.
Good water quality is what you are shooting for. That really is what all the
arguments rollup into. That will determine the success or failure of your
water gardens/ponds.
Happy ponding,
Greg



Next post will follow..
Happy ponding,
Greg


"~ jan" wrote in message
s.com...
Yes, that's what I believe too. Though I believe his plan is to maintain
it
himself, he is a retired gent.... a healthy retired gent, but still, once
one gets in those upper years (you know, like above 40) one never knows
what will strike one down temporarily or slow one down permanently. This
gentleman is at least in his late 60s. ~ jan

On Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:35:22 GMT, Theron wrote:

In the case of the Aquascape system, the nursery will make most of its
money from the sale of the weekly/monthly chemical additions and the
once a year cleaning of the rocks. A pond of this kind is a cash cow
for maintanance as long as the pond owner has it, and has the
installer maintain it.

Theron


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

THANK YOU GREG!

That says it all. This time I've locked this information so I won't lose it
when asked again. ) ~ jan

On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:58:06 GMT, "Gregory Young" wrote:
Hi all:
I have received a FD present (surprise) from my wife, of an AS ornamental
water garden. Looked pretty. I smiled, and thanked her.. then tried to
figure how I could fix it..
Found the solution.. I had her help me "clean" the pond in the spring. We
drained the pond, and cleaned the gravel (about 3 - 4 inches deep small
stone.. the usual AS addition.)
After smelling the stench (H2S primarily), my wife realized "the fish were
swimming in a septic tank" (we have one, she knows the smell when it is
drained), and agreed to allow me to remove the bottom rock/gravel.. Of
course then I convinced here we should go deeper, get bottom drains
installed, go with Koi, and it all began! Sneaky of me hugh?
The rock/gravel bottom was beautiful, and did look clean.. no disagreements
there.
You can not imagine the job I had.. using a 5 gallon bucket, with numerous
holes drilled to allow water to flow out, getting into the then 17 x 17
pond, and getting the gravel out.. 1/2 bucket at a time. It took a long
time.. esp. as they had delivered the rock with a truck, and wheelbarrowed
it in.
I got my exercise that summer!
I kept the best features AS uses (but they didn't invent them).. the
biofalls, and skimmer, but hooked in that a bead filter, added bottom drains
that feed a stream (which is designed to be trickle filter), which dumps
into bog and back into pond. 2 discrete systems, which are doing great.
I am pressed for time, so forgive me, the following is a paste of info I
sent this NG last spring on this subject.
My next post will be a reprint of a Koi USA article. Hope this all helps.
Here is one of my previous posts on gravel on the bottom of ponds:

From: "Gregory Young"
Subject: GRAVEL ON LINER IN POND??
Date: Sunday, May 20, 2001 10:31 AM

This subject stimulates a great deal of discussion, as people have opinions,
based on "what they have, or works for them", rather than based on
scientific trials/studies.
A good site that offers both sides of the argument I found is:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rosieda...e/writing.html
A couple of points I will add to the discussion:
1) The rock "craze" comes from the very successful "Aquascape school of
ponding". The owner of Aquascape has setup a very lucrative business based
on an excellent marketing approach.. to take all of the components used to
setup water gardens, put them together in a package, and sell them to
nurseries across the country. Further they (Aquascape) offers "how to"
sessions that teach the nurseries through seminars how to install an average
pond, using their approach (they use rocks to "protect the liner bottom from
the effects of uv irradiation". Nice hype, but short wavelength uv doesn't
cause any significant damage to anything under 2 feet of water!), then state
that the average 2 foot deep pond installation can net a nursery $6,000 -
$7,500! Those numbers come from the Aquascape video which nurseries receive
when they purchase an Aquascape system. The tape encourages them to attend
an Aquascape seminar, to learn the tricks of installation, etc. Since I
don't have the video in front of me, and have only seen it once 2 years ago,
I may be slightly off on the dollar amount but I'm close enough to make my
point.
2) I dive, formerly as part of my profession, now as a hobby. I can assure
you most of the bottoms of bodies of water (except in certain areas of rock
outcroppings), are not covered with rock! They are covered with sediment,
which accumulates over time. For those with farm ponds, you know what I am
speaking of, which is why without bottom aeration farms ponds eventually
need to be drained and cleaned out, usually by bulldozers.
3) Many streams, or other shallow bodies, where there is flowing water, will
have rocky bottoms, as the flow of water keeps the sediments from
depositing.
4) The reason many "ponders" can get away with a rocky bottom, without the
buildup of hydrogen sulfide, and other anaerobic decomposition products (ie
methane, etc), is the depth of the pond is so shallow, 2 feet or less, that
the action of their Aquascape/ related skimmer system gets enough water flow
going to help remove some of the smaller solids/DOC before they deposit on
the bottom and get trapped between the rocks. Obviously larger solids can
accumulate, which is why Aquascape, as part of their dealer seminars,
emphasizes surface nets during the autumn to keep out larger debris, as part
of their recommendations.
5) The nurseries are also instructed they can get an additional several
hundred $$ to "open the ponds" of their customers each spring, which
involves several hours of draining the pond, power washing the stony bottom
and sides of the water garden, then refilling with "fresh water". They then
sell the customer the (expensive in my opinion) bacteria necessary to
"start-up the filter", which of course was destroyed when they power washed
the stone, both on the bottom and lining the sides of the water garden.
My opinion.. customers are being taken financial advantage of by some of the
dealers in this fashion, etc by charging for services that the average
customer could do, if the system was set up to allow this..
I must add if people are happy with what they have, then that's fine.. they
are just paying more to have "professionals" take care of their water
gardens than the "do it yourselfers".
We all are different, which makes life so interesting, and exciting at
times. The best examples of this are seen during your local club's annual
water garden tours. You see some great ideas and initiatives!
IMHO, if you keep the depth 2 feet or less, you can get away without a
bottom drain, and can use rocks without any problems. Shallow gardens like
that are really Goldfish oriented, more than Koi.
Yes, (I will say this to avoid starting a flame war) people can keep Koi in
them, but Koi are better suited for ponds at least 3 feet in depth of more..
but that is another discussion.
In summary, pick what you want (rock vs. rock free), and enjoy your
garden/pond!
The more educated you are, the better you can make decisions that will meet
your individual needs, and the needs of your watery pets.
People it seems best learn from their experiences, both good and bad, but I
would hope each of you reads, reads and reads! In this way the experience of
others can help you benefit from their mistakes in advance.
There is no single right or wrong way to create your garden, but there are
ways that can help you avoid problems later on.
Good water quality is what you are shooting for. That really is what all the
arguments rollup into. That will determine the success or failure of your
water gardens/ponds.
Happy ponding,
Greg



Next post will follow..
Happy ponding,
Greg


"~ jan" wrote in message
ws.com...
Yes, that's what I believe too. Though I believe his plan is to maintain
it
himself, he is a retired gent.... a healthy retired gent, but still, once
one gets in those upper years (you know, like above 40) one never knows
what will strike one down temporarily or slow one down permanently. This
gentleman is at least in his late 60s. ~ jan

On Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:35:22 GMT, Theron wrote:

In the case of the Aquascape system, the nursery will make most of its
money from the sale of the weekly/monthly chemical additions and the
once a year cleaning of the rocks. A pond of this kind is a cash cow
for maintanance as long as the pond owner has it, and has the
installer maintain it.

Theron


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website



See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:58:06 GMT, "Gregory Young"
wrote:

Hi all:
I have received a FD present (surprise) from my wife, of an AS ornamental
water garden. Looked pretty. I smiled, and thanked her.. then tried to
figure how I could fix it..
Found the solution.. I had her help me "clean" the pond in the spring. We
drained the pond, and cleaned the gravel (about 3 - 4 inches deep small
stone.. the usual AS addition.)
After smelling the stench (H2S primarily), my wife realized "the fish were
swimming in a septic tank" (we have one, she knows the smell when it is
drained), and agreed to allow me to remove the bottom rock/gravel.. Of
course then I convinced here we should go deeper, get bottom drains
installed, go with Koi, and it all began! Sneaky of me hugh?
The rock/gravel bottom was beautiful, and did look clean.. no disagreements
there.
You can not imagine the job I had.. using a 5 gallon bucket, with numerous
holes drilled to allow water to flow out, getting into the then 17 x 17
pond, and getting the gravel out.. 1/2 bucket at a time. It took a long
time.. esp. as they had delivered the rock with a truck, and wheelbarrowed
it in.
I got my exercise that summer!
I kept the best features AS uses (but they didn't invent them).. the
biofalls, and skimmer, but hooked in that a bead filter, added bottom drains
that feed a stream (which is designed to be trickle filter), which dumps
into bog and back into pond. 2 discrete systems, which are doing great.
I am pressed for time, so forgive me, the following is a paste of info I
sent this NG last spring on this subject.
My next post will be a reprint of a Koi USA article. Hope this all helps.
Here is one of my previous posts on gravel on the bottom of ponds:

From: "Gregory Young"
Subject: GRAVEL ON LINER IN POND??
Date: Sunday, May 20, 2001 10:31 AM

This subject stimulates a great deal of discussion, as people have opinions,
based on "what they have, or works for them", rather than based on
scientific trials/studies.
A good site that offers both sides of the argument I found is:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rosieda...e/writing.html
A couple of points I will add to the discussion:
1) The rock "craze" comes from the very successful "Aquascape school of
ponding". The owner of Aquascape has setup a very lucrative business based
on an excellent marketing approach.. to take all of the components used to
setup water gardens, put them together in a package, and sell them to
nurseries across the country. Further they (Aquascape) offers "how to"
sessions that teach the nurseries through seminars how to install an average
pond, using their approach (they use rocks to "protect the liner bottom from
the effects of uv irradiation". Nice hype, but short wavelength uv doesn't
cause any significant damage to anything under 2 feet of water!), then state
that the average 2 foot deep pond installation can net a nursery $6,000 -
$7,500! Those numbers come from the Aquascape video which nurseries receive
when they purchase an Aquascape system. The tape encourages them to attend
an Aquascape seminar, to learn the tricks of installation, etc. Since I
don't have the video in front of me, and have only seen it once 2 years ago,
I may be slightly off on the dollar amount but I'm close enough to make my
point.
2) I dive, formerly as part of my profession, now as a hobby. I can assure
you most of the bottoms of bodies of water (except in certain areas of rock
outcroppings), are not covered with rock! They are covered with sediment,
which accumulates over time. For those with farm ponds, you know what I am
speaking of, which is why without bottom aeration farms ponds eventually
need to be drained and cleaned out, usually by bulldozers.
3) Many streams, or other shallow bodies, where there is flowing water, will
have rocky bottoms, as the flow of water keeps the sediments from
depositing.
4) The reason many "ponders" can get away with a rocky bottom, without the
buildup of hydrogen sulfide, and other anaerobic decomposition products (ie
methane, etc), is the depth of the pond is so shallow, 2 feet or less, that
the action of their Aquascape/ related skimmer system gets enough water flow
going to help remove some of the smaller solids/DOC before they deposit on
the bottom and get trapped between the rocks. Obviously larger solids can
accumulate, which is why Aquascape, as part of their dealer seminars,
emphasizes surface nets during the autumn to keep out larger debris, as part
of their recommendations.
5) The nurseries are also instructed they can get an additional several
hundred $$ to "open the ponds" of their customers each spring, which
involves several hours of draining the pond, power washing the stony bottom
and sides of the water garden, then refilling with "fresh water". They then
sell the customer the (expensive in my opinion) bacteria necessary to
"start-up the filter", which of course was destroyed when they power washed
the stone, both on the bottom and lining the sides of the water garden.
My opinion.. customers are being taken financial advantage of by some of the
dealers in this fashion, etc by charging for services that the average
customer could do, if the system was set up to allow this..
I must add if people are happy with what they have, then that's fine.. they
are just paying more to have "professionals" take care of their water
gardens than the "do it yourselfers".
We all are different, which makes life so interesting, and exciting at
times. The best examples of this are seen during your local club's annual
water garden tours. You see some great ideas and initiatives!
IMHO, if you keep the depth 2 feet or less, you can get away without a
bottom drain, and can use rocks without any problems. Shallow gardens like
that are really Goldfish oriented, more than Koi.
Yes, (I will say this to avoid starting a flame war) people can keep Koi in
them, but Koi are better suited for ponds at least 3 feet in depth of more..
but that is another discussion.
In summary, pick what you want (rock vs. rock free), and enjoy your
garden/pond!
The more educated you are, the better you can make decisions that will meet
your individual needs, and the needs of your watery pets.
People it seems best learn from their experiences, both good and bad, but I
would hope each of you reads, reads and reads! In this way the experience of
others can help you benefit from their mistakes in advance.
There is no single right or wrong way to create your garden, but there are
ways that can help you avoid problems later on.
Good water quality is what you are shooting for. That really is what all the
arguments rollup into. That will determine the success or failure of your
water gardens/ponds.
Happy ponding,
Greg



Next post will follow..
Happy ponding,
Greg


"~ jan" wrote in message
ws.com...
Yes, that's what I believe too. Though I believe his plan is to maintain
it
himself, he is a retired gent.... a healthy retired gent, but still, once
one gets in those upper years (you know, like above 40) one never knows
what will strike one down temporarily or slow one down permanently. This
gentleman is at least in his late 60s. ~ jan

On Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:35:22 GMT, Theron wrote:

In the case of the Aquascape system, the nursery will make most of its
money from the sale of the weekly/monthly chemical additions and the
once a year cleaning of the rocks. A pond of this kind is a cash cow
for maintanance as long as the pond owner has it, and has the
installer maintain it.

Theron


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website