I guess I didn't make myself clear - the terrorists are like wasps, in that
they will sting us. To death, if we let them. They are unlike wasps, in
that they don't believe in "live and let live". If you leave them alone,
they will NOT leave you alone! I guess I sorta thought that would be
obvious to anyone capable of observation and critical thought.

And since you brought it up, I don't know what sort of "extremely important
funtion" the terrorists perform, or what "pest' levels they help keep down.
Most people would not assign that sort of role to terrorists. Unlike wasps,
terrorists need to be wiped out.

Tim C.

wrote in message
...
I sit by my pond all the time and the wasps come in for a drink and leave
..... if you
leave wasps alone they leave you alone. wasps serve and extremely
important function
in keeping pest levels down. Ingrid

When you've got a wasps' nest, and the wasps won't leave you alone but
keep
stinging you, you get rid of them.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Joe, here is the relavent passage:

Well guess what, my son who is doing guard duty with one of units training
the ING, says they just throw
their garbage on the ground and walk thru it. He picked up 150 water
bottles, piled them in front of their latrine and just watched many of them
walk thru them. Finally one guy starting picking them up and putting them
in a garbage bag, after my son and the other guards starting ribbing them
about it.)

I interpret this as her son dumping litter (150 water bottles) and
then making fun of the Iraqis until they cleaned up the mess he made.
I would not tolerate such behavior from my son when he was 6, and
certainly would expect better from any adult.

PlainBill

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:07:21 -0700, San Diego Joe
wrote:

"PlainBill" wrote:

Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

Come on, that's just a little nasty. If you want to debate, fine, but I
don't see that comment moving along an open dialogue.



San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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I'm sorry you interpret it that way. Here is the passage I was
refering to.

Well guess what, my son who is doing guard duty with one of units training
the ING, says they just throw
their garbage on the ground and walk thru it. He picked up 150 water
bottles, piled them in front of their latrine and just watched many of them
walk thru them. Finally one guy starting picking them up and putting them
in a garbage bag, after my son and the other guards starting ribbing them
about it.)

I interpret this as dumping litter (150 water bottles) and then making
fun of the Iraqis until they cleaned up the mess he made. I would not
tolerate such behavior from my son when he was 6, and certainly would
expect better from any adult.

PlainBill

On 11 Jul 2004 00:24:14 GMT, EROSPAM (Ka30P) wrote:


Hey Plain Bill,
you're being just Plain Mean!

Jan,

Your response was uncalled for.

You described an action that smacks of 'Ugly American', and I
denounced it as such. Calling it an experiment in no way dignifies it.
It being done by someone serving in a war zone does not excuse it.
Frankly, I would find such behavior inexcusable from a six year old.

In simple terms, "An adult does not make a mess and expect others to
clean it up". And especially, "An adult does not tease other adults
for failing to clean up a mess he himself made."

PlainBill

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:38:47 GMT, ~ jan JJsPond.us
wrote:

Wow Bill, did you spit on the Nam vets too?

In your defense perhaps you got confused with the initials ING and thought
my son was guarding prisoners? My son is guarding the area where the Iraqis
are being trained for the Iraqi National Guard (ING). So they are learning
how to shoot those same guns my son carries. No, he doesn't stand around
teasing them as he's usually sleeping when they're training, as guard duty
is a swing or graveyard shift. He was just conducting an experiment at the
time.

Anyway, guarding is the least of his duties, he has put together a network
so all the US troops stationed there now have internet connections in their
buildings to run their computers, they either shipped to them (or they
brought with them).... but then I'm not out to impress you. I don't think
you're open minded enough, since you got the impression I had some sort of
argument in my first post when there was none (at least intended). ~ jan

"PlainBill" wrote:

Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

Come on, that's just a little nasty. If you want to debate, fine, but I
don't see that comment moving along an open dialogue.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.

(Do you know where your water quality is?)

Too bad. I saw him acting in a childish manner, and called it as I
saw it.

PlainBill

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:52:33 -0500, "J.D. Stone"
wrote:

snip
"PlainBill" wrote in message
.. .


Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

PlainBill


Malign Jan's son? If you had an audience, You most likely don't now. Bad
form. Tsk.
JD

Old man, you're too bitter to see the truth. I would have done what
any real man would have done.

5. Handed Jan's son a bag and told him to clean up his own mess.

PlainBill

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:32:50 -0500, THE Old Man
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:59:06 -0700, PlainBill
wrote:

He picked up 150 water
bottles, piled them in front of their latrine and just watched many of them
walk thru them. Finally one guy starting picking them up and putting them
in a garbage bag, after my son and the other guards starting ribbing them
about it.)

here's my interpretation of what it might look like from an Iraqi
citizens POV. This armed man stacked 150 empty water bottles in front
of the latrine. I don't know why he did it, but he has a gun, and I
don't. I have to use the latrine. Do I 1. Use another latrine
2. Walk around the bottles or 3. Remove them at the risk of angering
the armed man?

Evidently one guy didn't worry about getting them angry and caught on
to the scheme of things.

As for YOUR interpretation ... I would guess that you would do:

4 - stand there and wet in my pants.

Tim, Tim, Tim,

You just don't get it. It's sad, but something seems to have escaped
you.

First of all, attacking Iraq had very little to do with attacking
terrorism. That was the stated goal, and MIGHT have been the actual
purpose, but it has been pretty well proven that Saddam Hussein was a
brutal dictator, and murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens.
However, as a terrorist, he was pretty pathetic. His worst act seems
to have been paying $10,000 rewards to the families of Palestinian
suicide bombers.

No one doubts he had ambitions, but a decade of UN sanctions pretty
well destroyed the ability to do anything.

But more important, warfare changes. World War I style trench
warfare was ineffective against World War II armored attacks (France).
World War II style warfare was ineffective against guerilla warfare (
Cuba - [No, we didn't fight a war in Cuba, Batista lost one to
Castro], Vietnam).

Now we are engaged in a battle against terrorists. And the
techniques which are so effective against armies don't work against
terrorists. All we are doing is providing the weapons and motivation
for more terrorism. And the weapons are the minor part of the
problem. You seem to keep forgetting that bin Laden's weapons were
box cutters, flight training schools, and airliners.

You say that 'we must stamp them out.' But unless we are going to
destroy their peoples completely, we CAN'T stamp them out.

PlainBill

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:58:56 GMT, "tim chandler"
wrote:

"PlainBill" typed slowly, with many errors :
"don't have an effective plan to restore a stable government to the
country"...

Gosh, yes, it's already been several *months* and they don't have a standard
of living or peace and tranquility like we do yet! Yet you liberals are
also the ones complaining that we are engineering everything over there -
you can't have it both ways, you can't complain that we are running the war
and their government for Haliburton and Big Oil, but it's just not
effective - if it were the case that the war is all about oil, you should be
GLAD the plan isn't effective! Especially since what liberals want most, is
failure, not success in Iraq.

It's their country, we gave it back to them, and now it's up to them - it's
going to take longer than the short attention span that you on the left
have, before things improve. It's a total upheaval for them. It took years
for Germany and Japan to get back on an even keel.

As far as getting news from Fox, they *are* the less biased source - anyone
who thinks that PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NY Times, Wash Post, LA Times, etc. etc.
are objective and unbiased and balanced, is really living in a
mainstream-media controlled dreamworld.

"PlainBill" continued his rant:

"Stick you own head in the sand. George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the
rest of the Republican leadership have done more to foster terrorism
than they have done to limit it. Over and over again, we find out we
have been misled, either deliberately or by their incompetence."

They have had to rely on intelligence - intelligence that was cut
drastically in the 90s by your buddy Clinton. They all felt all we needed
to do was to watch from above with satellites and listen in on cell phone
conversations! There were not even any agents on the ground to provide
intelligence, the cutbacks were so severe.

And if you believe that the Democrats would have done more to stop
terrorism, other than by trying to appease it, you just provide further
proof of your own limited perception. In fact, the Bush administration is
actively and effectively fighting terrorism - again, it's just not a problem
that can be solved overnight. You liberals really need to work on the
attention span thing!

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:52:01 -0500, THE Old Man
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:44:20 -0700, PlainBill
wrote:


Well, as another old MAN, I find your attitude disgusting. It's the
sabre rattling nitwits like you that get us into this trouble.

Now I'm a sabre rattling nitwit. It is interesting that when some
feel that someone has a different opinion they resort to name calling.
I am not sorry that you find my attitude disgusting. As a fact, I
find it refreshing that you do.

PlainBill

Now I resort ... is that PlainBill or PlainBULL?


Who'd doing the name calling?

PlainBill

Wow!!! Bill, you said a mouthful.

(As far as the rats are concerned, I'm a liberal. I say kill them.
The Jack Russel Terrier sound like a good way - I'd like to play with
him too. I get nervous about unforseen effects from poisons. And
live trapping them and relocating them is silly.)

PlainBill

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:50:31 GMT, "Newbie Bill"
wrote:

Consider this scenerio - One day there is a knock on your door. There stand
10 men in black military suits with automatic weapons and foreign accents.
They tell you they believe you have drugs in your house and that if you dont
either produce them immediately or allow them to come in and search for
themselves, they are going to kill not only you, but all of your family they
can find and probably many of your neighbors. You insist you have no drugs,
they have no authority whatsoever to be there, this is your private
property, you object on legal and religous grounds and even if you had them,
the only interest they have in drugs, was to take them and sell them
theirselves. They insist on the count of three they are indeed going to
carry out their threat regardless. If you have no drugs do you slam the
door and run for a kitchen knife or let them in?
It was a terrible thing that 3000+ people died in a terrorist attack. It
is a terrible thing every time another of our young men loses his life in
Iraq. It is a terrible thing many people were probably killed tonite by
drunk drivers. This is a very complex, far reaching and difficult issue.
We have a thread in this group of probably 20 different people who feel
pretty strongly, have some experience, knowledge and expertise about how or
if you should get rid of rats in your back yard. In reading many of these
'answers' it is obvious there is not even close to a clear accord on the
correct course of action. The conservatives cant agree on how to kill them.
The liberals cant agree and whether you should adopt them or just ask them
to move out of the neighborhood. How can we possibly know the right thing
to do, to dissuade several million people who have as their avowed goal to
kill us? Even if one poster name Jesus Christademos, (from one of the
higher states of North America) knew exactly the right thing -what's the
chances he could convince a majority of the people just in this group, to
abandon their pre conceived opinions. I suggest in this forum, we keep our
attention of comparitively simple matters like algae bloom and just how man
koi can you really put in a 2000 gallon pond with a bead filter and funnel
our politico/socio/economic views and energy into more appropriate avenues
and venues.
Peace
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

Plain Bill wrote:

I interpret this as her son dumping litter (150 water bottles) and
then making fun of the Iraqis until they cleaned up the mess he made.

I was trying to tell a simple story and PB apparently wants to make a big
deal of it, so in my son's honor.

1.) The Iraqis threw their water bottles on the ground after drinking them
(even though garbage cans are provided).

2.) My son, shocked after all the anti-litter propaganda he's been taught
in the US public school system, decided to do an experiment. If he picked
up a bunch of the bottles, he estimated 150, and put them in an area where
they had to walk thru, would they pick them up "bag available" or just walk
thru them?

3.) They, the guards, were watching from off in a distance, not standing
over anyone pointing their guns.

4.) After several Iraqis walked thru the bottles kicking them hither and
yon, finally one of the Iraqi students started picking them up and putting
them in the bag provided.

5.) At that time, the guards came over and gave the other Iraqis, who would
standing around just watching the one pick them up, a bad time (remember
these are kids 19-20 yo) about walking thru it, and throwing them on the
ground in the first place, and then watching 1 person do the smart thing.
Afterall it is their country and they should CARE.

6.) So basically they were giving them a anti-litter lesson. Would you
expect less of someone this age from our school systems? It's not like they
go thru sensitive training in the Army. One of their mottos is, we're here
to protect democracy not practice it.

7.) The Iraqis have their own little things to get back at the US guys,
which I'm hoping is just basically this age group way of *getting your goat
because it bugs you* stuff.

7.) After my son IMed the story regarding the bottles I said, "You have to
understand that these people have been living hard very controlled lives,
and lately just surviving is on their minds, not their environment.

How's that PB? ~ jan


(Do you know where your water quality is?)

You're certainly entitled to your (mistaken) opinions. I believe we are
taking steps to eliminate or at least reduce terrorism. Saddam was part of
the problem (certainly not part of the solution!). And I also believe that
we'll adjust our tactics and strategy to what works best over time.

OTOH people like you have no solutions to offer, just carping criticism.
That's certainly allowed too, I just choose to cast my vote for substance
over style, and solutions over conspiracy theories and whining.

Tim

"PlainBill" wrote in message
...
Tim, Tim, Tim,

You just don't get it. It's sad, but something seems to have escaped
you.

First of all, attacking Iraq had very little to do with attacking
terrorism. That was the stated goal, and MIGHT have been the actual
purpose, but it has been pretty well proven that Saddam Hussein was a
brutal dictator, and murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens.
However, as a terrorist, he was pretty pathetic. His worst act seems
to have been paying $10,000 rewards to the families of Palestinian
suicide bombers.

No one doubts he had ambitions, but a decade of UN sanctions pretty
well destroyed the ability to do anything.

But more important, warfare changes. World War I style trench
warfare was ineffective against World War II armored attacks (France).
World War II style warfare was ineffective against guerilla warfare (
Cuba - [No, we didn't fight a war in Cuba, Batista lost one to
Castro], Vietnam).

Now we are engaged in a battle against terrorists. And the
techniques which are so effective against armies don't work against
terrorists. All we are doing is providing the weapons and motivation
for more terrorism. And the weapons are the minor part of the
problem. You seem to keep forgetting that bin Laden's weapons were
box cutters, flight training schools, and airliners.

You say that 'we must stamp them out.' But unless we are going to
destroy their peoples completely, we CAN'T stamp them out.

PlainBill

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:58:56 GMT, "tim chandler"
wrote:

"PlainBill" typed slowly, with many errors :
"don't have an effective plan to restore a stable government to the
country"...

Gosh, yes, it's already been several *months* and they don't have a
standard
of living or peace and tranquility like we do yet! Yet you liberals are
also the ones complaining that we are engineering everything over
here -
you can't have it both ways, you can't complain that we are running the
war
and their government for Haliburton and Big Oil, but it's just not
effective - if it were the case that the war is all about oil, you should
be
GLAD the plan isn't effective! Especially since what liberals want most,
is
failure, not success in Iraq.

It's their country, we gave it back to them, and now it's up to them -
it's
going to take longer than the short attention span that you on the left
have, before things improve. It's a total upheaval for them. It took
years
for Germany and Japan to get back on an even keel.

As far as getting news from Fox, they *are* the less biased source -
anyone
who thinks that PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NY Times, Wash Post, LA Times, etc.
etc.
are objective and unbiased and balanced, is really living in a
mainstream-media controlled dreamworld.

"PlainBill" continued his rant:

"Stick you own head in the sand. George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the
rest of the Republican leadership have done more to foster terrorism
than they have done to limit it. Over and over again, we find out we
have been misled, either deliberately or by their incompetence."

They have had to rely on intelligence - intelligence that was cut
drastically in the 90s by your buddy Clinton. They all felt all we
needed
to do was to watch from above with satellites and listen in on cell phone
conversations! There were not even any agents on the ground to provide
intelligence, the cutbacks were so severe.

And if you believe that the Democrats would have done more to stop
terrorism, other than by trying to appease it, you just provide further
proof of your own limited perception. In fact, the Bush administration
is
actively and effectively fighting terrorism - again, it's just not a
problem
that can be solved overnight. You liberals really need to work on the
attention span thing!

PlainBill wrote
I'm sorry you interpret it that way.

Bill,
I'm not sure if you read my other post or realize it but Jan and I live in the
same town. I've known her for about 18 years. So I've known her son almost all
his life.
I remember when her worries about him were a whole lot simpler.
Whatever our opinions are about why our country is in Iraq hopefully we can all
agree that we'd like each and everybody's son and daughter to come home safely.


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

Jan,

Why do you persist in pretending anyone opposed to this war hates
soldiers? Is it because you lack faith in your own values?
Certainly if you looked over my posts on the Iraq war, I have
repeatedly stated I hope the soldiers come home safely. Yes, this
includes your son.

You described your son doing something less than intelligent, and I
pointed out there was a better way. Now get over it.

Lastly, I believe you owe me an apology for accusing me of spitting on
servicemen returning from Vietnam.

PlainBill

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:07:59 -0700, ~ jan JJsPond.us
wrote:

Plain Bill wrote:

Your response was uncalled for.

You described an action that smacks of 'Ugly American', and I
denounced it as such.

Oh please PB, how many people in this thread have you called names in the
last 2 days? I just asked a simple question, you came up with the name
above... but hey, you built the shoe I can only assume it fits...... ?

If we go back, you started this by your stupid *** opinion at the end of
your commentary of misunderstanding a simple story I was relaying. Isn't it
a tad odd, that only U, took my story wrong? That U read it as "my son's
mess" he dumped, not the Iraqi's mess moved to a more prominent locale?

Perhaps you should read something over a few times, before giving a knee
jerk reaction to the keyboard? And if that doesn't work, give the story
teller the benefit of the doubt before getting out the flame thrower. ~ jan


(Do you know where your water quality is?)

I think we need to distinguish between Iraq before the embargo, Iraq before the
bombing and now. People who live thru bombing respond in different ways, some become
horribly depressed and lose all interest in everything around them. Others seem to
rise to the challenge and can start rebuilding. The mental health of everyone in
that country right now is "not normal" .... everyone the Iraqis and the soldiers.
Living conditions have been so disrupted and life itself can be so overwhelming right
now that nobody sees much less worries about litter or even sanitation. Staying alert
for people with guns is all they can muster.

Having traveled over quite a bit of N. and S. Europe and even eastern U.S. there is a
wide range of what people consider sanitary. I find parts of the east coast to be
grubby compared to Milwaukee where machines come during the night to wash and sweep
the streets. In Milwaukee a guy taking a leak in an alley or behind a bush will be
arrested, in parts of Europe nobody thinks about it. There are different standards.
In some countries people live in closer contact to animals. I am sure a culture I
consider very fussy, Japan, might think my dogs sleeping in my bed is gross. Just as
we think roaming chickens or goats is gross.

So let us not criticize until we have lived in those shoes for a while.
Ingrid



the news showed
Iraqi's living in squalor, garbage littering the ground, goats,
chickens picking thru it, etc, sanitation problems came to my mind.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

So let us not criticize until we have lived in those shoes for a while.
Ingrid

the news showed
Iraqi's living in squalor, garbage littering the ground, goats,
chickens picking thru it, etc, sanitation problems came to my mind.

What is critical about describing what the news showed and what opinion it
caused to form in my mind? ~ jan
(Do you know where your water quality is?)