On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:02:22 GMT, "tim chandler"
wrote:

Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration, France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any! I guess the thousands of
Iraqis, thousands of Iranians, thousands of Kurds who all died at once at
various times under Saddam, just all happened to die all at once of natural
causes?

OK, I'll type this slowly. Nobody with an ounce of brains denys Iraq
had chemical weapons early in the 1990's. It has been pretty well
accepted that they were used agains the Kurds. As part of the
agreement ending the First Gulf War he was to destroy them. He
claimed he did, but never offered PROOF to the UN, and certainly did
not cooperate with the inspectors. However, we are now faced with a
paradox. Either he had WMDs, and neither the UN inspectors, the
Coalition forces, or the insurgents have been able to find them; or he
disposed of them. It perhaps escaped your limited perception that a
decade has passed since he used them.

Stick your head in the sand if you wish, believe lies if you wish, look at
evil and pronounce it good if you wish, hell, go live under a dictator like
Saddam if you wish. At least Bush is doing something about evil in the
world rather than just talking about it and wringing his hands. People who
believe that the US is the focus of evil in this world are really clueless.

Stick you own head in the sand. George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the
rest of the Republican leadership have done more to foster terrorism
than they have done to limit it. Over and over again, we find out we
have been misled, either deliberately or by their incompetence.

A month ago they felt there were 5000 insurgents in Iraq. They
killed 4000 of al Sadr's most militant followers. Now they are
estimating there are 20,000 insurgents.

A month ago they attributed the attacks to non-Iragi militants. Now
it appears most of them are Iraqi. Again and again, they demonstrate
they went into the war with poor planning, and don't have an effective
plan to restore a stable government to the country.

I understand you feel comfortable getting your news from Fox; you
might get a more balanced picture from a less biased source.

PlainBill
Tim C.

"PlainBill" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:13:04 -0400, "Benign Vanilla"
wrote:


"PlainBill" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:56:26 -0400, "Benign Vanilla"
snip
How was Iraq going to blow something up here? It has been pretty well
established that their nuclear weapons development program was going
nowhere.

Osama had no such program and successfully attacked both US civilian and
military targets.

Don't forget, that by the time the last plane crashed in
Pennsylvania, a technique for combatting such hijackings had already
been developed. Unarmed civilians took back the plane and tragically
crashed the plane. Armoring cockpit doors makes it very unlikely any
such attempt would even result in the loss of a plane (I wouldn't give
two bits for the chances of a hijacker surviving the attempt).


They APPEAR to have disposed of their stock of chemical
weapons. That pretty much leaves 'conventional' terrorist attacks.
Face the facts, Hussein was close to the head of the list of worst
dictators of the last century, but he was not a serious threat to the
United States.

You want me to face facts, when you yourself states that they APPEAR to
have
disposed of their weapons? Facts are hardly part of the data we are
working
with here.

Very true - facts are certainly hard to come by. Well, when after 15
months neither the colalition forces nor the insurgents have found
any, I'd have to say 'Appears' is a pretty solid assesment. Nothing
is certain in this world, but it's pretty certain that Bush, Cheney,
et al's claims that Iraq had WMDs were fabrications.


There are dozens of countries with a greater capability to attack us -
just search the CIA World Book of Facts for countries whose 2001 per
capita GNP was greater than Iraq's. There are dozens of nations who
would LIKE to hurt the United States. These include many nations in
the Middle East, many in Africa, and a few in Asia. Look at the
nations who have or are developing nuclear capability. One name pops
up on the 'Danger' list consistently - North Korea. Iran is a second.
Lybia is a third, although they claim to be playing nice NOW.

One reason was to 'Free the opressed people of Iraq'. You don't have
to look even that far to find people who are in worse straits.

Decades ago I heard a Latin phrase - Que Bono (Who Benefits). Ask
that question, then look at the answers and you'll get a pretty good
idea of the reasons Cheney was so eager to attack Iraq - and Bush was
willing to be led around on the leash. I'll give you a hint - Which
nations have the greatest untapped oil reserves?

Oh the blood for oil thing. yeah I forgot.

Yeah, forgetting seems to be a popular talent in the Bush family.
Like when Bush Sr. said he 'couldn't remember' if treason was
discussed at a cabinet meeting.

BV.

PlainBill

Hey Plain Bill,
you're being just Plain Mean!

"PlainBill" wrote:

Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

Come on, that's just a little nasty. If you want to debate, fine, but I
don't see that comment moving along an open dialogue.



San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.



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snip
"PlainBill" wrote in message
...


Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

PlainBill


Malign Jan's son? If you had an audience, You most likely don't now. Bad
form. Tsk.
JD

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:44:20 -0700, PlainBill
wrote:


Well, as another old MAN, I find your attitude disgusting. It's the
sabre rattling nitwits like you that get us into this trouble.

Now I'm a sabre rattling nitwit. It is interesting that when some
feel that someone has a different opinion they resort to name calling.
I am not sorry that you find my attitude disgusting. As a fact, I
find it refreshing that you do.

PlainBill

Now I resort ... is that PlainBill or PlainBULL?

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:09:31 GMT, "tim chandler"
wrote:

They just found more enriched uranium, and removed it. Enriched uranium is
used only for bombs.

Aw, Tim. There you go bringing facts. Don't you know that messes
"them" up? I'm sure the enriched uranium was for making baby formula
or aspirin. Surely ... SURELY they wouldn't ever attempt to use it in
a weapon. Naw.

"all wars are economic" - a rather sweeping generalization. I'm not sure I
understand why genocide - such as has happened in Nazi Germany, in the
Ukraine, Cambodia, Rwanda as well as with the Kurds, Bosnia, and too many
elsewheres - is economic.

Yep. Strictly economic. By going to war in Iraq the USA and their
allies made a bundle of money off of the deal. And the USA and their
allies have taken over the oil fields, etc. and the new Iraqi
government won't get any of it.

wrote in message
...
he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been gone,
arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and excuses for
going to
war. Ingrid

Jan,

Your response was uncalled for.

You described an action that smacks of 'Ugly American', and I
denounced it as such. Calling it an experiment in no way dignifies it.
It being done by someone serving in a war zone does not excuse it.
Frankly, I would find such behavior inexcusable from a six year old.

In simple terms, "An adult does not make a mess and expect others to
clean it up". And especially, "An adult does not tease other adults
for failing to clean up a mess he himself made."

PlainBill

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:38:47 GMT, ~ jan JJsPond.us
wrote:

Wow Bill, did you spit on the Nam vets too?

In your defense perhaps you got confused with the initials ING and thought
my son was guarding prisoners? My son is guarding the area where the Iraqis
are being trained for the Iraqi National Guard (ING). So they are learning
how to shoot those same guns my son carries. No, he doesn't stand around
teasing them as he's usually sleeping when they're training, as guard duty
is a swing or graveyard shift. He was just conducting an experiment at the
time.

Anyway, guarding is the least of his duties, he has put together a network
so all the US troops stationed there now have internet connections in their
buildings to run their computers, they either shipped to them (or they
brought with them).... but then I'm not out to impress you. I don't think
you're open minded enough, since you got the impression I had some sort of
argument in my first post when there was none (at least intended). ~ jan

"PlainBill" wrote:

Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

Come on, that's just a little nasty. If you want to debate, fine, but I
don't see that comment moving along an open dialogue.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.

(Do you know where your water quality is?)

Oh geez...

wrote:

all owned and operated by big corporate interests for corporate interests.
All this other "liberal press" is a lot of propaganda by the right wing figuring if
you say it often enough, say it loud enough people will buy any big lie.
You want to hear REAL liberal media tune in to Air America Radio. That is liberal!!!
Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:

As far as getting news from Fox, they *are* the less biased source - anyone
who thinks that PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NY Times, Wash Post, LA Times, etc. etc.
are objective and unbiased and balanced, is really living in a
mainstream-media controlled dreamworld.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:29:49 GMT, wrote:

At the time the decision was being made I was hearing from friends who were very much
against going to war against Iraq. But I couldnt decide one way or the other. I
very much believe democracy is good for everyone. I dont believe that any society
snip for brevity

You know Ingrid, that was the best darn speech I've ever heard from you
relying your thoughts, on this soapbox and I especially liked this part....

Maybe, just maybe the Iraqis dont want freedom enough to put their lives on the line.
Maybe they want order and electricity and water every day more than freedom. I dont
know. Freedom and democracy is something gotta burn in your soul and be willing to
fight and die for it. Maybe they dont know what it is, maybe they dont want it. Oh,
they may want it for themselves, but if they dont want to share it with all the
"other" religions, they dont want to share it with women then they dont really want
it like it is burning in their soul.

Very thoughtful and maybe even dead on. Maybe it takes having one's
ancestors cross an ocean in wind powered ships to a new land, plus travel
cross that country in cover wagons to own land, to inherit that burning
need in one's soul? ~ jan


(Do you know where your water quality is?)

Political threads always make my teeth itch,
like politicians do, so I try to stay out of them ;-)

Jan wrote He picked up 150 water
bottles

But that said, I sure do miss the days when Jan's only
worries about her DS were if he kept his room
cleaned up. Oh, and then there was homework and high school and driving and
girls and...

Hope he, and all the people over there, come home
safely.


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:47:53 GMT, ~ jan JJsPond.us
wrote:

I heard on the news the other day that the CIA has informed its people to
report on what they know, not what they THINK they know.

I'm wondering if we all shouldn't take similar advice?

I know I don't want to believe that our government went to war just because
of OIL. So I tend to side with those who also believe this.... and
sometimes I even want to "foolishly" comment to bring others over to my
side. But then I "wisely" realize, what do *I* REALLY know? We have media
that reports the bad stuff, because the good stuff wouldn't catch enough of
the audience and ratings + commericals + money-making means they've got to
grab their short term attention (us) audience quickly. Bad news works. Same
with our newspapers and/or radio.

Why doubt our media? Just talk to some of the servicemen/women over there
and they tell a different story than what we see on/in the news. (To give a
little personal clip of what *I* do know, the news showed Iraqi's living in
squalor, garbage littering the ground, goats, chickens picking thru it,
etc, sanitation problems came to my mind. Well guess what, my son who is
doing guard duty with one of units training the ING, says they just throw
their garbage on the ground and walk thru it. He picked up 150 water
bottles, piled them in front of their latrine and just watched many of them
walk thru them. Finally one guy starting picking them up and putting them
in a garbage bag, after my son and the other guards starting ribbing them
about it.)

So we're left to form are own opinion between what is showed on the news
(and not always explained, just implied) and why it looks as bad as it
does... perhaps it is just because the people there have a different
attitude about garbage in the streets? Unemployment is suppose to be high,
so why don't they clean up? Even if one doesn't get paid, it is THEIR
country.

Regarding the "majority of congress people wouldn't have voted for the
war", on the news last night, if they had 20/20 hindsight. That isn't what
I got out of the report last night, I got the opposite. When they did a
direct poll, the numbers showed the opposite was true. Hmmmm, could it be
my wishful thinking again? Did I misunderstand, was I somewhat sidetracked
at the time, with the newspaper in my lap, my computer dinging me that my
son (in Iraq) was IMing me, and half dozen other things going on or thru my
mind?

So where do the rest of you get your information to REALLY not doubt what
you THINK you know, regarding the evils of men and going to war for oil?
Seems all those dead bodies of Hussein's own countrymen Tim mentioned is an
obvious, oh wait, where we again set up by our worthless media? Was it just
a few bodies to catch our attention that evening? ~ jan


(Do you know where your water quality is?)

Jan,

On your second point, I suggest you look at these stories (watch
out for line wrap):


http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/...c&c=news&cs=nw

According to what I read, even the Republican congressional leaders
admit the resolution authorizing war would have been a toss-up if they
knew then what we know now; Democrats say it would never have passed.

On your first point, my first reaction was this was another case of
'blame the victim'. Perhaps I'm doing your son an injustice, but
here's my interpretation of what it might look like from an Iraqi
citizens POV. This armed man stacked 150 empty water bottles in front
of the latrine. I don't know why he did it, but he has a gun, and I
don't. I have to use the latrine. Do I 1. Use another latrine
2. Walk around the bottles or 3. Remove them at the risk of angering
the armed man?

Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

PlainBill

"PlainBill" typed slowly, with many errors :
"don't have an effective plan to restore a stable government to the
country"...

Gosh, yes, it's already been several *months* and they don't have a standard
of living or peace and tranquility like we do yet! Yet you liberals are
also the ones complaining that we are engineering everything over there -
you can't have it both ways, you can't complain that we are running the war
and their government for Haliburton and Big Oil, but it's just not
effective - if it were the case that the war is all about oil, you should be
GLAD the plan isn't effective! Especially since what liberals want most, is
failure, not success in Iraq.

It's their country, we gave it back to them, and now it's up to them - it's
going to take longer than the short attention span that you on the left
have, before things improve. It's a total upheaval for them. It took years
for Germany and Japan to get back on an even keel.

As far as getting news from Fox, they *are* the less biased source - anyone
who thinks that PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NY Times, Wash Post, LA Times, etc. etc.
are objective and unbiased and balanced, is really living in a
mainstream-media controlled dreamworld.

"PlainBill" continued his rant:

"Stick you own head in the sand. George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the
rest of the Republican leadership have done more to foster terrorism
than they have done to limit it. Over and over again, we find out we
have been misled, either deliberately or by their incompetence."

They have had to rely on intelligence - intelligence that was cut
drastically in the 90s by your buddy Clinton. They all felt all we needed
to do was to watch from above with satellites and listen in on cell phone
conversations! There were not even any agents on the ground to provide
intelligence, the cutbacks were so severe.

And if you believe that the Democrats would have done more to stop
terrorism, other than by trying to appease it, you just provide further
proof of your own limited perception. In fact, the Bush administration is
actively and effectively fighting terrorism - again, it's just not a problem
that can be solved overnight. You liberals really need to work on the
attention span thing!

give it up,,,there are NO wmd in Iraq. most of the terrorists were from
our "friend" Saudi Arabia.
genocide is to rid a country of those not like you. that way you can have
their "stuff",,,economics,,,,,or power or those other virtues so
glorified,,,,,,,,,,
If you think this war was in self defense,,,,then most of the world,,the
UN,,,and now our "allies" who are withdrawing,,,must have their heads in the
sand also....
look at who is making the money now and it is clear why the us is at
war,,,,,,,,,,,,,





"tim chandler" wrote in message
.. .
They just found more enriched uranium, and removed it. Enriched uranium
is
used only for bombs.

"all wars are economic" - a rather sweeping generalization. I'm not sure
I
understand why genocide - such as has happened in Nazi Germany, in the
Ukraine, Cambodia, Rwanda as well as with the Kurds, Bosnia, and too many
elsewheres - is economic.

wrote in message
...
he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been gone,
arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and excuses
for
going to
war. Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration,
France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

It is so sad that people think it's all about money, or oil...unfortunately
that says more about those people, than it does about the war.

It's also sad that when evidence of WMDs is found, you just choose to ignore
it. Thank God our country is run by people who have our national security
and safety as a goal - if liberals were in charge, we would already have
surrendered to the terrorists. I for one do not want to live the rest of my
life with the threat of terrorist acts constantly hanging over our heads.
When you've got a wasps' nest, and the wasps won't leave you alone but keep
stinging you, you get rid of them.

"Gary" wrote in message
...
give it up,,,there are NO wmd in Iraq. most of the terrorists were from
our "friend" Saudi Arabia.
genocide is to rid a country of those not like you. that way you can have
their "stuff",,,economics,,,,,or power or those other virtues so
glorified,,,,,,,,,,
If you think this war was in self defense,,,,then most of the world,,the
UN,,,and now our "allies" who are withdrawing,,,must have their heads in
the
sand also....
look at who is making the money now and it is clear why the us is at
war,,,,,,,,,,,,,





"tim chandler" wrote in message
.. .
They just found more enriched uranium, and removed it. Enriched uranium
is
used only for bombs.

"all wars are economic" - a rather sweeping generalization. I'm not
sure
I
understand why genocide - such as has happened in Nazi Germany, in the
Ukraine, Cambodia, Rwanda as well as with the Kurds, Bosnia, and too
many
elsewheres - is economic.

wrote in message
...
he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been gone,
arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and excuses
for
going to
war. Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration,
France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said
that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

interesting article discusses how they are going after anyone in Hollywood that is
speaking out. People in hollywood do have more influence than is warranted given
some of them are very close to being morons. it isnt just that an extraordinary lot
of them have never finished high school, but their "lifestyle" is not given to
critical thinking of any kind. as a nation we tend to think pretty kids and people
are smarter than they are. There are exceptions of course, people like Jodie Foster
comes to mind. She is going to Harvard (IIRC).
What is scary is all that adulation and fame goes to their heads and they really
think that qualifies them to be a representative of their people. None of them start
like a typical public servant serving on local school boards, city council etc while
they learn what they must learn. Politics is a great deal more like a team sport
than the star system, so the vast majority are really lousy politicians. The back
room boys like "stars" cause they can walk the walk and talk the talk and really look
the part AND they take direction very well indeed. But I would rather be represented
by a person than a bunch of puppeteers I dont know.
Ingrid

(BC DEX) wrote:

Ahhhh ... The Dixie Chicks. Freedom of speech...
What they said was nothing compared to what is being said today by
other people in Washington.
Why is it they caught all kinds of crap for saying something, about
whats his name?
But nothing is said about all the name calling today from all the other
people in politics?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.