On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:02:22 GMT, "tim chandler"
wrote:

Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration, France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any! I guess the thousands of
Iraqis, thousands of Iranians, thousands of Kurds who all died at once at
various times under Saddam, just all happened to die all at once of natural
causes?

OK, I'll type this slowly. Nobody with an ounce of brains denys Iraq
had chemical weapons early in the 1990's. It has been pretty well
accepted that they were used agains the Kurds. As part of the
agreement ending the First Gulf War he was to destroy them. He
claimed he did, but never offered PROOF to the UN, and certainly did
not cooperate with the inspectors. However, we are now faced with a
paradox. Either he had WMDs, and neither the UN inspectors, the
Coalition forces, or the insurgents have been able to find them; or he
disposed of them. It perhaps escaped your limited perception that a
decade has passed since he used them.

Stick your head in the sand if you wish, believe lies if you wish, look at
evil and pronounce it good if you wish, hell, go live under a dictator like
Saddam if you wish. At least Bush is doing something about evil in the
world rather than just talking about it and wringing his hands. People who
believe that the US is the focus of evil in this world are really clueless.

Stick you own head in the sand. George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the
rest of the Republican leadership have done more to foster terrorism
than they have done to limit it. Over and over again, we find out we
have been misled, either deliberately or by their incompetence.

A month ago they felt there were 5000 insurgents in Iraq. They
killed 4000 of al Sadr's most militant followers. Now they are
estimating there are 20,000 insurgents.

A month ago they attributed the attacks to non-Iragi militants. Now
it appears most of them are Iraqi. Again and again, they demonstrate
they went into the war with poor planning, and don't have an effective
plan to restore a stable government to the country.

I understand you feel comfortable getting your news from Fox; you
might get a more balanced picture from a less biased source.

PlainBill
Tim C.

"PlainBill" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:13:04 -0400, "Benign Vanilla"
wrote:


"PlainBill" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:56:26 -0400, "Benign Vanilla"
snip
How was Iraq going to blow something up here? It has been pretty well
established that their nuclear weapons development program was going
nowhere.

Osama had no such program and successfully attacked both US civilian and
military targets.

Don't forget, that by the time the last plane crashed in
Pennsylvania, a technique for combatting such hijackings had already
been developed. Unarmed civilians took back the plane and tragically
crashed the plane. Armoring cockpit doors makes it very unlikely any
such attempt would even result in the loss of a plane (I wouldn't give
two bits for the chances of a hijacker surviving the attempt).


They APPEAR to have disposed of their stock of chemical
weapons. That pretty much leaves 'conventional' terrorist attacks.
Face the facts, Hussein was close to the head of the list of worst
dictators of the last century, but he was not a serious threat to the
United States.

You want me to face facts, when you yourself states that they APPEAR to
have
disposed of their weapons? Facts are hardly part of the data we are
working
with here.

Very true - facts are certainly hard to come by. Well, when after 15
months neither the colalition forces nor the insurgents have found
any, I'd have to say 'Appears' is a pretty solid assesment. Nothing
is certain in this world, but it's pretty certain that Bush, Cheney,
et al's claims that Iraq had WMDs were fabrications.


There are dozens of countries with a greater capability to attack us -
just search the CIA World Book of Facts for countries whose 2001 per
capita GNP was greater than Iraq's. There are dozens of nations who
would LIKE to hurt the United States. These include many nations in
the Middle East, many in Africa, and a few in Asia. Look at the
nations who have or are developing nuclear capability. One name pops
up on the 'Danger' list consistently - North Korea. Iran is a second.
Lybia is a third, although they claim to be playing nice NOW.

One reason was to 'Free the opressed people of Iraq'. You don't have
to look even that far to find people who are in worse straits.

Decades ago I heard a Latin phrase - Que Bono (Who Benefits). Ask
that question, then look at the answers and you'll get a pretty good
idea of the reasons Cheney was so eager to attack Iraq - and Bush was
willing to be led around on the leash. I'll give you a hint - Which
nations have the greatest untapped oil reserves?

Oh the blood for oil thing. yeah I forgot.

Yeah, forgetting seems to be a popular talent in the Bush family.
Like when Bush Sr. said he 'couldn't remember' if treason was
discussed at a cabinet meeting.

BV.

PlainBill

Not true. Enriched uranium is also used in nuclear reactors. Whimper
all you want, but even Bush admits the Iraq nuclear program was
defunct.

PlainBill

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:09:31 GMT, "tim chandler"
wrote:

They just found more enriched uranium, and removed it. Enriched uranium is
used only for bombs.

"all wars are economic" - a rather sweeping generalization. I'm not sure I
understand why genocide - such as has happened in Nazi Germany, in the
Ukraine, Cambodia, Rwanda as well as with the Kurds, Bosnia, and too many
elsewheres - is economic.

wrote in message
...
he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been gone,
arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and excuses for
going to
war. Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration,
France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

you clarify your mindset when you compare wasps and human beings and how you
deal with things you don't like


"tim chandler" wrote in message
.. .
It is so sad that people think it's all about money, or
oil...unfortunately
that says more about those people, than it does about the war.

It's also sad that when evidence of WMDs is found, you just choose to
ignore
it. Thank God our country is run by people who have our national security
and safety as a goal - if liberals were in charge, we would already have
surrendered to the terrorists. I for one do not want to live the rest of
my
life with the threat of terrorist acts constantly hanging over our heads.
When you've got a wasps' nest, and the wasps won't leave you alone but
keep
stinging you, you get rid of them.

"Gary" wrote in message
...
give it up,,,there are NO wmd in Iraq. most of the terrorists were
from
our "friend" Saudi Arabia.
genocide is to rid a country of those not like you. that way you can
have
their "stuff",,,economics,,,,,or power or those other virtues so
glorified,,,,,,,,,,
If you think this war was in self defense,,,,then most of the world,,the
UN,,,and now our "allies" who are withdrawing,,,must have their heads in
the
sand also....
look at who is making the money now and it is clear why the us is at
war,,,,,,,,,,,,,





"tim chandler" wrote in message
.. .
They just found more enriched uranium, and removed it. Enriched
uranium
is
used only for bombs.

"all wars are economic" - a rather sweeping generalization. I'm not
sure
I
understand why genocide - such as has happened in Nazi Germany, in the
Ukraine, Cambodia, Rwanda as well as with the Kurds, Bosnia, and too
many
elsewheres - is economic.

wrote in message
...
he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been
gone,
arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and
excuses
for
going to
war. Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration,
France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said
that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:39:55 GMT, "tim chandler"
wrote:

It is so sad that people think it's all about money, or oil...unfortunately
that says more about those people, than it does about the war.

It's also sad that when evidence of WMDs is found, you just choose to ignore
it. Thank God our country is run by people who have our national security
and safety as a goal - if liberals were in charge, we would already have
surrendered to the terrorists. I for one do not want to live the rest of my
life with the threat of terrorist acts constantly hanging over our heads.
When you've got a wasps' nest, and the wasps won't leave you alone but keep
stinging you, you get rid of them.

It's sad, but you neocons can't seem to get it through your head that
there are better ways to get rid of wasps than by stomping on their
nest. And in this case, while you are destroying the 'wasps', you are
killing a lot of other people. I know, "They're only Moslems, who
cares". But the REAL crime is you don't understand that you are
fostering MORE terrorism.

PlainBill

"Gary" wrote in message
...
give it up,,,there are NO wmd in Iraq. most of the terrorists were from
our "friend" Saudi Arabia.
genocide is to rid a country of those not like you. that way you can have
their "stuff",,,economics,,,,,or power or those other virtues so
glorified,,,,,,,,,,
If you think this war was in self defense,,,,then most of the world,,the
UN,,,and now our "allies" who are withdrawing,,,must have their heads in
the
sand also....
look at who is making the money now and it is clear why the us is at
war,,,,,,,,,,,,,





"tim chandler" wrote in message
.. .
They just found more enriched uranium, and removed it. Enriched uranium
is
used only for bombs.

"all wars are economic" - a rather sweeping generalization. I'm not
sure
I
understand why genocide - such as has happened in Nazi Germany, in the
Ukraine, Cambodia, Rwanda as well as with the Kurds, Bosnia, and too
many
elsewheres - is economic.

wrote in message
...
he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been gone,
arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and excuses
for
going to
war. Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration,
France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said
that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"PlainBill" wrote:

Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

Come on, that's just a little nasty. If you want to debate, fine, but I
don't see that comment moving along an open dialogue.



San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.



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Hey Plain Bill,
you're being just Plain Mean!

snip
"PlainBill" wrote in message
...


Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

PlainBill


Malign Jan's son? If you had an audience, You most likely don't now. Bad
form. Tsk.
JD

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:44:20 -0700, PlainBill
wrote:


Well, as another old MAN, I find your attitude disgusting. It's the
sabre rattling nitwits like you that get us into this trouble.

Now I'm a sabre rattling nitwit. It is interesting that when some
feel that someone has a different opinion they resort to name calling.
I am not sorry that you find my attitude disgusting. As a fact, I
find it refreshing that you do.

PlainBill

Now I resort ... is that PlainBill or PlainBULL?

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:09:31 GMT, "tim chandler"
wrote:

They just found more enriched uranium, and removed it. Enriched uranium is
used only for bombs.

Aw, Tim. There you go bringing facts. Don't you know that messes
"them" up? I'm sure the enriched uranium was for making baby formula
or aspirin. Surely ... SURELY they wouldn't ever attempt to use it in
a weapon. Naw.

"all wars are economic" - a rather sweeping generalization. I'm not sure I
understand why genocide - such as has happened in Nazi Germany, in the
Ukraine, Cambodia, Rwanda as well as with the Kurds, Bosnia, and too many
elsewheres - is economic.

Yep. Strictly economic. By going to war in Iraq the USA and their
allies made a bundle of money off of the deal. And the USA and their
allies have taken over the oil fields, etc. and the new Iraqi
government won't get any of it.

wrote in message
...
he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been gone,
arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and excuses for
going to
war. Ingrid

Wow Bill, did you spit on the Nam vets too?

In your defense perhaps you got confused with the initials ING and thought
my son was guarding prisoners? My son is guarding the area where the Iraqis
are being trained for the Iraqi National Guard (ING). So they are learning
how to shoot those same guns my son carries. No, he doesn't stand around
teasing them as he's usually sleeping when they're training, as guard duty
is a swing or graveyard shift. He was just conducting an experiment at the
time.

Anyway, guarding is the least of his duties, he has put together a network
so all the US troops stationed there now have internet connections in their
buildings to run their computers, they either shipped to them (or they
brought with them).... but then I'm not out to impress you. I don't think
you're open minded enough, since you got the impression I had some sort of
argument in my first post when there was none (at least intended). ~ jan

"PlainBill" wrote:

Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

Come on, that's just a little nasty. If you want to debate, fine, but I
don't see that comment moving along an open dialogue.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.

(Do you know where your water quality is?)

Consider this scenerio - One day there is a knock on your door. There stand
10 men in black military suits with automatic weapons and foreign accents.
They tell you they believe you have drugs in your house and that if you dont
either produce them immediately or allow them to come in and search for
themselves, they are going to kill not only you, but all of your family they
can find and probably many of your neighbors. You insist you have no drugs,
they have no authority whatsoever to be there, this is your private
property, you object on legal and religous grounds and even if you had them,
the only interest they have in drugs, was to take them and sell them
theirselves. They insist on the count of three they are indeed going to
carry out their threat regardless. If you have no drugs do you slam the
door and run for a kitchen knife or let them in?
It was a terrible thing that 3000+ people died in a terrorist attack. It
is a terrible thing every time another of our young men loses his life in
Iraq. It is a terrible thing many people were probably killed tonite by
drunk drivers. This is a very complex, far reaching and difficult issue.
We have a thread in this group of probably 20 different people who feel
pretty strongly, have some experience, knowledge and expertise about how or
if you should get rid of rats in your back yard. In reading many of these
'answers' it is obvious there is not even close to a clear accord on the
correct course of action. The conservatives cant agree on how to kill them.
The liberals cant agree and whether you should adopt them or just ask them
to move out of the neighborhood. How can we possibly know the right thing
to do, to dissuade several million people who have as their avowed goal to
kill us? Even if one poster name Jesus Christademos, (from one of the
higher states of North America) knew exactly the right thing -what's the
chances he could convince a majority of the people just in this group, to
abandon their pre conceived opinions. I suggest in this forum, we keep our
attention of comparitively simple matters like algae bloom and just how man
koi can you really put in a 2000 gallon pond with a bead filter and funnel
our politico/socio/economic views and energy into more appropriate avenues
and venues.
Peace
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

I sit by my pond all the time and the wasps come in for a drink and leave .... if you
leave wasps alone they leave you alone. wasps serve and extremely important function
in keeping pest levels down. Ingrid

When you've got a wasps' nest, and the wasps won't leave you alone but
keep
stinging you, you get rid of them.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

At the time the decision was being made I was hearing from friends who were very much
against going to war against Iraq. But I couldnt decide one way or the other. I
very much believe democracy is good for everyone. I dont believe that any society
can really "protect" women by denying them equal rights. When Powell got up there
and under oath said there were all kinds of WMD and showed all those pictures and
combined with a brutal dictator I too felt that this might be the right thing to do.
Powell said "he knew". I believed that "he knew". well, now it appears that finding
justification for going to war is a lot like pseudoscience. Get the conclusion in
place and then go looking for all the right facts to fit the conclusion.

But what I do "know" now is that we were lied to about the WMD from the start. There
was a "conclusion" from the day W took office and that conclusion was we are going to
war against Iraq so lets start looking for the facts that support that decision.
Yes, Iraqis lived under 3 brutal dictators ... Saddamn and his sons. But there is
always a trade off and maybe the Iraqis know something we dont, that only an iron
fist could keep the religious nuts in line. Look at what happened in the former
Yugoslavia when Tito was gone. The whole place went up in flames and there was
genocide. OTOH, in other countries when the people had a belly full (like Rumania)
the people revolted.

Maybe, just maybe the Iraqis dont want freedom enough to put their lives on the line.
Maybe they want order and electricity and water every day more than freedom. I dont
know. Freedom and democracy is something gotta burn in your soul and be willing to
fight and die for it. Maybe they dont know what it is, maybe they dont want it. Oh,
they may want it for themselves, but if they dont want to share it with all the
"other" religions, they dont want to share it with women then they dont really want
it like it is burning in their soul.

Sometimes, when it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and quacks, it is a duck.
Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
I heard on the news the other day that the CIA has informed its people to
report on what they know, not what they THINK they know.

I know I don't want to believe that our government went to war just because
of OIL.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:59:06 -0700, PlainBill
wrote:

He picked up 150 water
bottles, piled them in front of their latrine and just watched many of them
walk thru them. Finally one guy starting picking them up and putting them
in a garbage bag, after my son and the other guards starting ribbing them
about it.)

here's my interpretation of what it might look like from an Iraqi
citizens POV. This armed man stacked 150 empty water bottles in front
of the latrine. I don't know why he did it, but he has a gun, and I
don't. I have to use the latrine. Do I 1. Use another latrine
2. Walk around the bottles or 3. Remove them at the risk of angering
the armed man?

Evidently one guy didn't worry about getting them angry and caught on
to the scheme of things.

As for YOUR interpretation ... I would guess that you would do:

4 - stand there and wet in my pants.

all owned and operated by big corporate interests for corporate interests.
All this other "liberal press" is a lot of propaganda by the right wing figuring if
you say it often enough, say it loud enough people will buy any big lie.
You want to hear REAL liberal media tune in to Air America Radio. That is liberal!!!
Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
As far as getting news from Fox, they *are* the less biased source - anyone
who thinks that PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NY Times, Wash Post, LA Times, etc. etc.
are objective and unbiased and balanced, is really living in a
mainstream-media controlled dreamworld.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.