Joe, here is the relavent passage:

Well guess what, my son who is doing guard duty with one of units training
the ING, says they just throw
their garbage on the ground and walk thru it. He picked up 150 water
bottles, piled them in front of their latrine and just watched many of them
walk thru them. Finally one guy starting picking them up and putting them
in a garbage bag, after my son and the other guards starting ribbing them
about it.)

I interpret this as her son dumping litter (150 water bottles) and
then making fun of the Iraqis until they cleaned up the mess he made.
I would not tolerate such behavior from my son when he was 6, and
certainly would expect better from any adult.

PlainBill

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:07:21 -0700, San Diego Joe
wrote:

"PlainBill" wrote:

Frankly, neither your arguments nor your son impress me.

Come on, that's just a little nasty. If you want to debate, fine, but I
don't see that comment moving along an open dialogue.



San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.



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You're certainly entitled to your (mistaken) opinions. I believe we are
taking steps to eliminate or at least reduce terrorism. Saddam was part of
the problem (certainly not part of the solution!). And I also believe that
we'll adjust our tactics and strategy to what works best over time.

OTOH people like you have no solutions to offer, just carping criticism.
That's certainly allowed too, I just choose to cast my vote for substance
over style, and solutions over conspiracy theories and whining.

Tim

"PlainBill" wrote in message
...
Tim, Tim, Tim,

You just don't get it. It's sad, but something seems to have escaped
you.

First of all, attacking Iraq had very little to do with attacking
terrorism. That was the stated goal, and MIGHT have been the actual
purpose, but it has been pretty well proven that Saddam Hussein was a
brutal dictator, and murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens.
However, as a terrorist, he was pretty pathetic. His worst act seems
to have been paying $10,000 rewards to the families of Palestinian
suicide bombers.

No one doubts he had ambitions, but a decade of UN sanctions pretty
well destroyed the ability to do anything.

But more important, warfare changes. World War I style trench
warfare was ineffective against World War II armored attacks (France).
World War II style warfare was ineffective against guerilla warfare (
Cuba - [No, we didn't fight a war in Cuba, Batista lost one to
Castro], Vietnam).

Now we are engaged in a battle against terrorists. And the
techniques which are so effective against armies don't work against
terrorists. All we are doing is providing the weapons and motivation
for more terrorism. And the weapons are the minor part of the
problem. You seem to keep forgetting that bin Laden's weapons were
box cutters, flight training schools, and airliners.

You say that 'we must stamp them out.' But unless we are going to
destroy their peoples completely, we CAN'T stamp them out.

PlainBill

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:58:56 GMT, "tim chandler"
wrote:

"PlainBill" typed slowly, with many errors :
"don't have an effective plan to restore a stable government to the
country"...

Gosh, yes, it's already been several *months* and they don't have a
standard
of living or peace and tranquility like we do yet! Yet you liberals are
also the ones complaining that we are engineering everything over
here -
you can't have it both ways, you can't complain that we are running the
war
and their government for Haliburton and Big Oil, but it's just not
effective - if it were the case that the war is all about oil, you should
be
GLAD the plan isn't effective! Especially since what liberals want most,
is
failure, not success in Iraq.

It's their country, we gave it back to them, and now it's up to them -
it's
going to take longer than the short attention span that you on the left
have, before things improve. It's a total upheaval for them. It took
years
for Germany and Japan to get back on an even keel.

As far as getting news from Fox, they *are* the less biased source -
anyone
who thinks that PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NY Times, Wash Post, LA Times, etc.
etc.
are objective and unbiased and balanced, is really living in a
mainstream-media controlled dreamworld.

"PlainBill" continued his rant:

"Stick you own head in the sand. George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the
rest of the Republican leadership have done more to foster terrorism
than they have done to limit it. Over and over again, we find out we
have been misled, either deliberately or by their incompetence."

They have had to rely on intelligence - intelligence that was cut
drastically in the 90s by your buddy Clinton. They all felt all we
needed
to do was to watch from above with satellites and listen in on cell phone
conversations! There were not even any agents on the ground to provide
intelligence, the cutbacks were so severe.

And if you believe that the Democrats would have done more to stop
terrorism, other than by trying to appease it, you just provide further
proof of your own limited perception. In fact, the Bush administration
is
actively and effectively fighting terrorism - again, it's just not a
problem
that can be solved overnight. You liberals really need to work on the
attention span thing!

Ahhhh ... The Dixie Chicks. Freedom of speech...
What they said was nothing compared to what is being said today by
other people in Washington.
Why is it they caught all kinds of crap for saying something, about
whats his name?
But nothing is said about all the name calling today from all the other
people in politics?

I sit by my pond all the time and the wasps come in for a drink and leave .... if you
leave wasps alone they leave you alone. wasps serve and extremely important function
in keeping pest levels down. Ingrid

When you've got a wasps' nest, and the wasps won't leave you alone but
keep
stinging you, you get rid of them.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

At the time the decision was being made I was hearing from friends who were very much
against going to war against Iraq. But I couldnt decide one way or the other. I
very much believe democracy is good for everyone. I dont believe that any society
can really "protect" women by denying them equal rights. When Powell got up there
and under oath said there were all kinds of WMD and showed all those pictures and
combined with a brutal dictator I too felt that this might be the right thing to do.
Powell said "he knew". I believed that "he knew". well, now it appears that finding
justification for going to war is a lot like pseudoscience. Get the conclusion in
place and then go looking for all the right facts to fit the conclusion.

But what I do "know" now is that we were lied to about the WMD from the start. There
was a "conclusion" from the day W took office and that conclusion was we are going to
war against Iraq so lets start looking for the facts that support that decision.
Yes, Iraqis lived under 3 brutal dictators ... Saddamn and his sons. But there is
always a trade off and maybe the Iraqis know something we dont, that only an iron
fist could keep the religious nuts in line. Look at what happened in the former
Yugoslavia when Tito was gone. The whole place went up in flames and there was
genocide. OTOH, in other countries when the people had a belly full (like Rumania)
the people revolted.

Maybe, just maybe the Iraqis dont want freedom enough to put their lives on the line.
Maybe they want order and electricity and water every day more than freedom. I dont
know. Freedom and democracy is something gotta burn in your soul and be willing to
fight and die for it. Maybe they dont know what it is, maybe they dont want it. Oh,
they may want it for themselves, but if they dont want to share it with all the
"other" religions, they dont want to share it with women then they dont really want
it like it is burning in their soul.

Sometimes, when it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and quacks, it is a duck.
Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
I heard on the news the other day that the CIA has informed its people to
report on what they know, not what they THINK they know.

I know I don't want to believe that our government went to war just because
of OIL.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

all owned and operated by big corporate interests for corporate interests.
All this other "liberal press" is a lot of propaganda by the right wing figuring if
you say it often enough, say it loud enough people will buy any big lie.
You want to hear REAL liberal media tune in to Air America Radio. That is liberal!!!
Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
As far as getting news from Fox, they *are* the less biased source - anyone
who thinks that PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NY Times, Wash Post, LA Times, etc. etc.
are objective and unbiased and balanced, is really living in a
mainstream-media controlled dreamworld.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I guess I didn't make myself clear - the terrorists are like wasps, in that
they will sting us. To death, if we let them. They are unlike wasps, in
that they don't believe in "live and let live". If you leave them alone,
they will NOT leave you alone! I guess I sorta thought that would be
obvious to anyone capable of observation and critical thought.

And since you brought it up, I don't know what sort of "extremely important
funtion" the terrorists perform, or what "pest' levels they help keep down.
Most people would not assign that sort of role to terrorists. Unlike wasps,
terrorists need to be wiped out.

Tim C.

wrote in message
...
I sit by my pond all the time and the wasps come in for a drink and leave
..... if you
leave wasps alone they leave you alone. wasps serve and extremely
important function
in keeping pest levels down. Ingrid

When you've got a wasps' nest, and the wasps won't leave you alone but
keep
stinging you, you get rid of them.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

PlainBill wrote
I'm sorry you interpret it that way.

Bill,
I'm not sure if you read my other post or realize it but Jan and I live in the
same town. I've known her for about 18 years. So I've known her son almost all
his life.
I remember when her worries about him were a whole lot simpler.
Whatever our opinions are about why our country is in Iraq hopefully we can all
agree that we'd like each and everybody's son and daughter to come home safely.


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:56:26 -0400, "Benign Vanilla"
wrote:


"PlainBill" wrote in message
.. .
snip
Don't believe me? Read a little on the life of Osama bin Laden. He
started out as an ALLY of the United States. Then when he learned the
truth of the Reagan Doctrine, realised he'd been exploited, and
decided to retaliate.

It's kind of funny - everyone agrees (myself included) that the world
will be a safer place without Osama bin Laden and al Quida. However,
our President has decided that Iraq (which had no WMDs) is a more
important target.

We give weapons to Osama to fight the russians and then leave. He attacks us
what 4? 5 times?

We give weapons to Iraq to fight Iran. Shall we now wait for them to blow
something up here?

BV.

How was Iraq going to blow something up here? It has been pretty well
established that their nuclear weapons development program was going
nowhere. They APPEAR to have disposed of their stock of chemical
weapons. That pretty much leaves 'conventional' terrorist attacks.
Face the facts, Hussein was close to the head of the list of worst
dictators of the last century, but he was not a serious threat to the
United States.

There are dozens of countries with a greater capability to attack us -
just search the CIA World Book of Facts for countries whose 2001 per
capita GNP was greater than Iraq's. There are dozens of nations who
would LIKE to hurt the United States. These include many nations in
the Middle East, many in Africa, and a few in Asia. Look at the
nations who have or are developing nuclear capability. One name pops
up on the 'Danger' list consistently - North Korea. Iran is a second.
Lybia is a third, although they claim to be playing nice NOW.

One reason was to 'Free the opressed people of Iraq'. You don't have
to look even that far to find people who are in worse straits.

Decades ago I heard a Latin phrase - Que Bono (Who Benefits). Ask
that question, then look at the answers and you'll get a pretty good
idea of the reasons Cheney was so eager to attack Iraq - and Bush was
willing to be led around on the leash. I'll give you a hint - Which
nations have the greatest untapped oil reserves?

PlainBill

"PlainBill" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:56:26 -0400, "Benign Vanilla"
snip
How was Iraq going to blow something up here? It has been pretty well
established that their nuclear weapons development program was going
nowhere.

Osama had no such program and successfully attacked both US civilian and
military targets.

They APPEAR to have disposed of their stock of chemical
weapons. That pretty much leaves 'conventional' terrorist attacks.
Face the facts, Hussein was close to the head of the list of worst
dictators of the last century, but he was not a serious threat to the
United States.

You want me to face facts, when you yourself states that they APPEAR to have
disposed of their weapons? Facts are hardly part of the data we are working
with here.

There are dozens of countries with a greater capability to attack us -
just search the CIA World Book of Facts for countries whose 2001 per
capita GNP was greater than Iraq's. There are dozens of nations who
would LIKE to hurt the United States. These include many nations in
the Middle East, many in Africa, and a few in Asia. Look at the
nations who have or are developing nuclear capability. One name pops
up on the 'Danger' list consistently - North Korea. Iran is a second.
Lybia is a third, although they claim to be playing nice NOW.

One reason was to 'Free the opressed people of Iraq'. You don't have
to look even that far to find people who are in worse straits.

Decades ago I heard a Latin phrase - Que Bono (Who Benefits). Ask
that question, then look at the answers and you'll get a pretty good
idea of the reasons Cheney was so eager to attack Iraq - and Bush was
willing to be led around on the leash. I'll give you a hint - Which
nations have the greatest untapped oil reserves?

Oh the blood for oil thing. yeah I forgot.

BV.

Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration, France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any! I guess the thousands of
Iraqis, thousands of Iranians, thousands of Kurds who all died at once at
various times under Saddam, just all happened to die all at once of natural
causes?

Stick your head in the sand if you wish, believe lies if you wish, look at
evil and pronounce it good if you wish, hell, go live under a dictator like
Saddam if you wish. At least Bush is doing something about evil in the
world rather than just talking about it and wringing his hands. People who
believe that the US is the focus of evil in this world are really clueless.

Tim C.

"PlainBill" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:13:04 -0400, "Benign Vanilla"
wrote:


"PlainBill" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:56:26 -0400, "Benign Vanilla"
snip
How was Iraq going to blow something up here? It has been pretty well
established that their nuclear weapons development program was going
nowhere.

Osama had no such program and successfully attacked both US civilian and
military targets.

Don't forget, that by the time the last plane crashed in
Pennsylvania, a technique for combatting such hijackings had already
been developed. Unarmed civilians took back the plane and tragically
crashed the plane. Armoring cockpit doors makes it very unlikely any
such attempt would even result in the loss of a plane (I wouldn't give
two bits for the chances of a hijacker surviving the attempt).


They APPEAR to have disposed of their stock of chemical
weapons. That pretty much leaves 'conventional' terrorist attacks.
Face the facts, Hussein was close to the head of the list of worst
dictators of the last century, but he was not a serious threat to the
United States.

You want me to face facts, when you yourself states that they APPEAR to
have
disposed of their weapons? Facts are hardly part of the data we are
working
with here.

Very true - facts are certainly hard to come by. Well, when after 15
months neither the colalition forces nor the insurgents have found
any, I'd have to say 'Appears' is a pretty solid assesment. Nothing
is certain in this world, but it's pretty certain that Bush, Cheney,
et al's claims that Iraq had WMDs were fabrications.


There are dozens of countries with a greater capability to attack us -
just search the CIA World Book of Facts for countries whose 2001 per
capita GNP was greater than Iraq's. There are dozens of nations who
would LIKE to hurt the United States. These include many nations in
the Middle East, many in Africa, and a few in Asia. Look at the
nations who have or are developing nuclear capability. One name pops
up on the 'Danger' list consistently - North Korea. Iran is a second.
Lybia is a third, although they claim to be playing nice NOW.

One reason was to 'Free the opressed people of Iraq'. You don't have
to look even that far to find people who are in worse straits.

Decades ago I heard a Latin phrase - Que Bono (Who Benefits). Ask
that question, then look at the answers and you'll get a pretty good
idea of the reasons Cheney was so eager to attack Iraq - and Bush was
willing to be led around on the leash. I'll give you a hint - Which
nations have the greatest untapped oil reserves?

Oh the blood for oil thing. yeah I forgot.

Yeah, forgetting seems to be a popular talent in the Bush family.
Like when Bush Sr. said he 'couldn't remember' if treason was
discussed at a cabinet meeting.

BV.

PlainBill

he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been gone, arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and excuses for going to
war. Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration, France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

They just found more enriched uranium, and removed it. Enriched uranium is
used only for bombs.

"all wars are economic" - a rather sweeping generalization. I'm not sure I
understand why genocide - such as has happened in Nazi Germany, in the
Ukraine, Cambodia, Rwanda as well as with the Kurds, Bosnia, and too many
elsewheres - is economic.

wrote in message
...
he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been gone,
arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and excuses for
going to
war. Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration,
France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

you clarify your mindset when you compare wasps and human beings and how you
deal with things you don't like


"tim chandler" wrote in message
.. .
It is so sad that people think it's all about money, or
oil...unfortunately
that says more about those people, than it does about the war.

It's also sad that when evidence of WMDs is found, you just choose to
ignore
it. Thank God our country is run by people who have our national security
and safety as a goal - if liberals were in charge, we would already have
surrendered to the terrorists. I for one do not want to live the rest of
my
life with the threat of terrorist acts constantly hanging over our heads.
When you've got a wasps' nest, and the wasps won't leave you alone but
keep
stinging you, you get rid of them.

"Gary" wrote in message
...
give it up,,,there are NO wmd in Iraq. most of the terrorists were
from
our "friend" Saudi Arabia.
genocide is to rid a country of those not like you. that way you can
have
their "stuff",,,economics,,,,,or power or those other virtues so
glorified,,,,,,,,,,
If you think this war was in self defense,,,,then most of the world,,the
UN,,,and now our "allies" who are withdrawing,,,must have their heads in
the
sand also....
look at who is making the money now and it is clear why the us is at
war,,,,,,,,,,,,,





"tim chandler" wrote in message
.. .
They just found more enriched uranium, and removed it. Enriched
uranium
is
used only for bombs.

"all wars are economic" - a rather sweeping generalization. I'm not
sure
I
understand why genocide - such as has happened in Nazi Germany, in the
Ukraine, Cambodia, Rwanda as well as with the Kurds, Bosnia, and too
many
elsewheres - is economic.

wrote in message
...
he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been
gone,
arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and
excuses
for
going to
war. Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration,
France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said
that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:39:55 GMT, "tim chandler"
wrote:

It is so sad that people think it's all about money, or oil...unfortunately
that says more about those people, than it does about the war.

It's also sad that when evidence of WMDs is found, you just choose to ignore
it. Thank God our country is run by people who have our national security
and safety as a goal - if liberals were in charge, we would already have
surrendered to the terrorists. I for one do not want to live the rest of my
life with the threat of terrorist acts constantly hanging over our heads.
When you've got a wasps' nest, and the wasps won't leave you alone but keep
stinging you, you get rid of them.

It's sad, but you neocons can't seem to get it through your head that
there are better ways to get rid of wasps than by stomping on their
nest. And in this case, while you are destroying the 'wasps', you are
killing a lot of other people. I know, "They're only Moslems, who
cares". But the REAL crime is you don't understand that you are
fostering MORE terrorism.

PlainBill

"Gary" wrote in message
...
give it up,,,there are NO wmd in Iraq. most of the terrorists were from
our "friend" Saudi Arabia.
genocide is to rid a country of those not like you. that way you can have
their "stuff",,,economics,,,,,or power or those other virtues so
glorified,,,,,,,,,,
If you think this war was in self defense,,,,then most of the world,,the
UN,,,and now our "allies" who are withdrawing,,,must have their heads in
the
sand also....
look at who is making the money now and it is clear why the us is at
war,,,,,,,,,,,,,





"tim chandler" wrote in message
.. .
They just found more enriched uranium, and removed it. Enriched uranium
is
used only for bombs.

"all wars are economic" - a rather sweeping generalization. I'm not
sure
I
understand why genocide - such as has happened in Nazi Germany, in the
Ukraine, Cambodia, Rwanda as well as with the Kurds, Bosnia, and too
many
elsewheres - is economic.

wrote in message
...
he had em, Israel bombed the nuclear plant. they are gone, been gone,
arent there
anymore, havent been there for a while.
all wars are economic. everything else is window dressing and excuses
for
going to
war. Ingrid

"tim chandler" wrote:
Wow, I am amazed! So you admit that Clinton & his administration,
France,
Germany, the UN, they all LIED TO US about WMDs when they all said
that
Saddam had them, because there weren't any!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.