8 snip

It seems no matter what you do its
all a chemical juggling act to get it balanced out..........one thing
I am certainly not crazy over. With a ph of 8.4 I certainly would not
wory about it.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.


I wouldn't worry so much about the 8.4 except that I've been led to
believe that could be why my WH and other floaters are failing to thrive.
Gabrielle

Gabrielle wrote:


The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
sunlight & heat issues.



Andy Hill wrote:

So why mess with the pH? 8.4 isn't bad, especially for goldfish or koi. It's
not like you're probably planning on trying to breed tetras (or some other
acid-loving fish) in the pond.

If you're having to top off that often, just be sure to do some "real" water
changes (30% or so) every couple of weeks. Sounds like you have a lot of
dissolved minerals in your water, and there's no point in allowing them to
accumulate ad infinitum.

My plants don't seem to like the high pH. If I put them in a container
with lower pH water, they thrive. In the pond, they don't. And, under
the Arizona sun, a pond really needs the plant coverage & competition to
keep algae at bay.

Yes, I do water changes, more like about 20% every week with the water
going to the citrus trees.

Gabrielle

Gabrielle wrote:


The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
sunlight & heat issues.



Andy Hill wrote:

So why mess with the pH? 8.4 isn't bad, especially for goldfish or koi. It's
not like you're probably planning on trying to breed tetras (or some other
acid-loving fish) in the pond.

If you're having to top off that often, just be sure to do some "real" water
changes (30% or so) every couple of weeks. Sounds like you have a lot of
dissolved minerals in your water, and there's no point in allowing them to
accumulate ad infinitum.

My plants don't seem to like the high pH. If I put them in a container
with lower pH water, they thrive. In the pond, they don't. And, under
the Arizona sun, a pond really needs the plant coverage & competition to
keep algae at bay.

Yes, I do water changes, more like about 20% every week with the water
going to the citrus trees.

Gabrielle

From the tap the water is low pH, between 6.2 and 6.8 with total
alkalinity about 40. I've been doing some water changes, yes, but the pH
keeps going up. The only thing I can think of -- and why I didn't think
of it before, I don't know -- is the log I put in the pond for the
turtles to bask on. I stripped the bark off and the log now keeps the
sickly plants on one side of the pond. Could that be it?

Gabrielle


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Gabrielle,

What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan



On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:





My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.

The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
sunlight & heat issues.

Gabrielle, who is not a chemist



~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

From the tap the water is low pH, between 6.2 and 6.8 with total
alkalinity about 40. I've been doing some water changes, yes, but the pH
keeps going up. The only thing I can think of -- and why I didn't think
of it before, I don't know -- is the log I put in the pond for the
turtles to bask on. I stripped the bark off and the log now keeps the
sickly plants on one side of the pond. Could that be it?

Gabrielle


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Gabrielle,

What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan



On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:





My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.

The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
sunlight & heat issues.

Gabrielle, who is not a chemist



~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Gabrielle,

What you've described sounds very much like the problem I had earlier this
summer. To solve I was told by the KHA teachers to do 20% water changes
every other day. Prior to doing those I had added 4 lbs of baking soda to
my 1,000 gallon pond. After 4 water changes the pH was down, and the KH was
steady at 100+. Since your KH is a lot lower from the tap than mine, you
might want to add more than 4 lbs/thousand. Anyway, I haven't had to worry
about pH since.

How high does your pH tester test?

Regarding the log, fill 2 buckets with tap water, if you can fit the log in
one or at least a piece of the log, put it in one of the buckets. Retest
the pH in both buckets after 24-48 hours. The 1st bucket (if you every did
chemistry labs) is your control, the 2nd is your actual test. ~ jan

.On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:54:26 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:

From the tap the water is low pH, between 6.2 and 6.8 with total
alkalinity about 40. I've been doing some water changes, yes, but the pH
keeps going up. The only thing I can think of -- and why I didn't think
of it before, I don't know -- is the log I put in the pond for the
turtles to bask on. I stripped the bark off and the log now keeps the
sickly plants on one side of the pond. Could that be it?

Gabrielle


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Gabrielle,

What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan



On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:





My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.

The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
sunlight & heat issues.

Gabrielle, who is not a chemist



~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~



~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"Gabrielle" wrote in message
...
From what I understand in other posts, the high pH is why my plants
aren't thriving.
Gabrielle


Gabrielle
I doubt the high PH is the problem, plants should thrive quite well in hard
water. You most likely have a nutrient deficiency in the form of Nitrate
(No3). Floating plants suck an unbelievable amount of No3 out of the water,
adding more fish or possibly dosing some no3 in the form of Salt Petre will
work very well, try it and see...
Or just remove the excess WH.!!
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

"Gabrielle" wrote in message
...
From what I understand in other posts, the high pH is why my plants
aren't thriving.
Gabrielle


Gabrielle
I doubt the high PH is the problem, plants should thrive quite well in hard
water. You most likely have a nutrient deficiency in the form of Nitrate
(No3). Floating plants suck an unbelievable amount of No3 out of the water,
adding more fish or possibly dosing some no3 in the form of Salt Petre will
work very well, try it and see...
Or just remove the excess WH.!!
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

From what I understand in other posts, the high pH is why my plants
aren't thriving.
Gabrielle

Happy'Cam'per wrote:
Gabrielle
I doubt the high PH is the problem, plants should thrive quite well in hard
water. You most likely have a nutrient deficiency in the form of Nitrate
(No3). Floating plants suck an unbelievable amount of No3 out of the water,
adding more fish or possibly dosing some no3 in the form of Salt Petre will
work very well, try it and see...
Or just remove the excess WH.!!
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**



Added eight fish yesterday -- four 12" GF, two 8" Shubunkin, two 4" GF,
all from my old pond. We'll see if anything changes. I've pulled out
about ten of my WH -- most dead & dying -- and only six puny specimens
are left. Since I did a major water change earlier in the week, one of
the survivors decided to put up a puny bloom. The Salvinia is more brown
than green and I trashed a bunch of it too. Now I only have about 10%
surface coverage.
Gabrielle

I've done the water changes and it bounces back up within 24 hours. I'll
give the baking soda a try. I also have glass dishes out with tap water
in them -- one plain, one with a piece of the log, and one with one of
the rocks from the stream. (I used the rocks that came up when we dug
the pond and I'm not sure what they are.) I'll check the pH tonight.

My tester only goes to 8.4 for pH. It's one of those little color
changing strip gizmos. I'm going to have to buy another one soon as I'm
using strips like crazy.

Gabrielle

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Gabrielle,

What you've described sounds very much like the problem I had earlier this
summer. To solve I was told by the KHA teachers to do 20% water changes
every other day. Prior to doing those I had added 4 lbs of baking soda to
my 1,000 gallon pond. After 4 water changes the pH was down, and the KH was
steady at 100+. Since your KH is a lot lower from the tap than mine, you
might want to add more than 4 lbs/thousand. Anyway, I haven't had to worry
about pH since.

How high does your pH tester test?

Regarding the log, fill 2 buckets with tap water, if you can fit the log in
one or at least a piece of the log, put it in one of the buckets. Retest
the pH in both buckets after 24-48 hours. The 1st bucket (if you every did
chemistry labs) is your control, the 2nd is your actual test. ~ jan



.On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:54:26 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:





From the tap the water is low pH, between 6.2 and 6.8 with total
alkalinity about 40. I've been doing some water changes, yes, but the pH
keeps going up. The only thing I can think of -- and why I didn't think
of it before, I don't know -- is the log I put in the pond for the
turtles to bask on. I stripped the bark off and the log now keeps the
sickly plants on one side of the pond. Could that be it?

Gabrielle


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:



Gabrielle,

What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan





On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:








My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.

The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
sunlight & heat issues.

Gabrielle, who is not a chemist




~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~





~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Happy,

See
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex6607?opendocument
pH plays a very big part on whether a plant can take up nutrients, with
some able to do it at lower pH and some at higher, but most need to be in
the medium range. ~ jan


On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:42:04 +0200, "Happy'Cam'per" wrote:


Gabrielle
I doubt the high PH is the problem, plants should thrive quite well in hard
water. You most likely have a nutrient deficiency in the form of Nitrate
(No3). Floating plants suck an unbelievable amount of No3 out of the water,
adding more fish or possibly dosing some no3 in the form of Salt Petre will
work very well, try it and see...
Or just remove the excess WH.!!

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Strips aren't always accurate either. I highly recommend the Hagen Nutrafin
High Range test kit, especially if having troubles with high pH, as it will
let you know just how high yours really is. ~ jan

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:18:38 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:

I've done the water changes and it bounces back up within 24 hours. I'll
give the baking soda a try. I also have glass dishes out with tap water
in them -- one plain, one with a piece of the log, and one with one of
the rocks from the stream. (I used the rocks that came up when we dug
the pond and I'm not sure what they are.) I'll check the pH tonight.

My tester only goes to 8.4 for pH. It's one of those little color
changing strip gizmos. I'm going to have to buy another one soon as I'm
using strips like crazy.

Gabrielle

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Gabrielle,

What you've described sounds very much like the problem I had earlier this
summer. To solve I was told by the KHA teachers to do 20% water changes
every other day. Prior to doing those I had added 4 lbs of baking soda to
my 1,000 gallon pond. After 4 water changes the pH was down, and the KH was
steady at 100+. Since your KH is a lot lower from the tap than mine, you
might want to add more than 4 lbs/thousand. Anyway, I haven't had to worry
about pH since.

How high does your pH tester test?

Regarding the log, fill 2 buckets with tap water, if you can fit the log in
one or at least a piece of the log, put it in one of the buckets. Retest
the pH in both buckets after 24-48 hours. The 1st bucket (if you every did
chemistry labs) is your control, the 2nd is your actual test. ~ jan



.On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:54:26 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:





From the tap the water is low pH, between 6.2 and 6.8 with total
alkalinity about 40. I've been doing some water changes, yes, but the pH
keeps going up. The only thing I can think of -- and why I didn't think
of it before, I don't know -- is the log I put in the pond for the
turtles to bask on. I stripped the bark off and the log now keeps the
sickly plants on one side of the pond. Could that be it?

Gabrielle


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:



Gabrielle,

What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan





On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:








My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.

The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
sunlight & heat issues.

Gabrielle, who is not a chemist




~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~





~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~



~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Strips aren't always accurate either. I highly recommend the Hagen Nutrafin
High Range test kit, especially if having troubles with high pH, as it will
let you know just how high yours really is. ~ jan

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:18:38 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:

I've done the water changes and it bounces back up within 24 hours. I'll
give the baking soda a try. I also have glass dishes out with tap water
in them -- one plain, one with a piece of the log, and one with one of
the rocks from the stream. (I used the rocks that came up when we dug
the pond and I'm not sure what they are.) I'll check the pH tonight.

My tester only goes to 8.4 for pH. It's one of those little color
changing strip gizmos. I'm going to have to buy another one soon as I'm
using strips like crazy.

Gabrielle

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Gabrielle,

What you've described sounds very much like the problem I had earlier this
summer. To solve I was told by the KHA teachers to do 20% water changes
every other day. Prior to doing those I had added 4 lbs of baking soda to
my 1,000 gallon pond. After 4 water changes the pH was down, and the KH was
steady at 100+. Since your KH is a lot lower from the tap than mine, you
might want to add more than 4 lbs/thousand. Anyway, I haven't had to worry
about pH since.

How high does your pH tester test?

Regarding the log, fill 2 buckets with tap water, if you can fit the log in
one or at least a piece of the log, put it in one of the buckets. Retest
the pH in both buckets after 24-48 hours. The 1st bucket (if you every did
chemistry labs) is your control, the 2nd is your actual test. ~ jan



.On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:54:26 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:





From the tap the water is low pH, between 6.2 and 6.8 with total
alkalinity about 40. I've been doing some water changes, yes, but the pH
keeps going up. The only thing I can think of -- and why I didn't think
of it before, I don't know -- is the log I put in the pond for the
turtles to bask on. I stripped the bark off and the log now keeps the
sickly plants on one side of the pond. Could that be it?

Gabrielle


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:



Gabrielle,

What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan





On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle wrote:








My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.

The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
sunlight & heat issues.

Gabrielle, who is not a chemist




~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~





~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~



~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Happy,

See

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex6607?opendocum
ent
pH plays a very big part on whether a plant can take up nutrients, with
some able to do it at lower pH and some at higher, but most need to be in
the medium range. ~ jan

Hi Jan How are you? Hope you are well.
Just perused the link you supplied and this seems to be pertaining to
terrestrial crop soils which is a completely different system. I can't
comment on PH in soils as I have zero expertise in this field ;o.
However, when it comes to aquatic plants I can assure you that plants are
more than comfortable within our ph ranges, lets say between 7 and 9, is
that reasonable?
Aquatic plants will not do better at low ph ranges, but will thrive in high
ph's. The more mineral salts the better.
Different plants prefer certain uptake of nutrients, for instance,
Vallisneria and Elodea will do well in high ph hard water because they
prefer the uptake of Bicarbonates as a carbon source and will suck it
directly from the water column! So these 2 plants will not do so well in low
ph soft water.
98% of the aquatic plants in the market will do just fine at PH 7-8.5.
Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth, really,
I'm not being a wise ass!
I have been running a high light co2 planted tank for the last 2 years, my
ph out the tap is 8.5 and my KH is 5, I push the ph down to about 6.9 - 7
with CO2 injection, I'll post some pics and you can see how well the plants
are doing. Admittedly the water is not very hard but I promise you it just
does not make a difference.
To the OP Gabrielle, I still believe that its a nutrient deficiency and
probably NO3, floating plants are relying on nutrients from the water
column, I'm pretty certain that they're starving.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

Happy'Cam'per wrote:

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...

See
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex6607?opendocument
pH plays a very big part on whether a plant can take up nutrients, with
some able to do it at lower pH and some at higher, but most need to be in
the medium range. ~ jan

Just perused the link you supplied and this seems to be pertaining to
terrestrial crop soils which is a completely different system. I can't
comment on PH in soils as I have zero expertise in this field ;o.
However, when it comes to aquatic plants I can assure you that plants are
more than comfortable within our ph ranges, lets say between 7 and 9, is
that reasonable?
Aquatic plants will not do better at low ph ranges, but will thrive in
high ph's. The more mineral salts the better.

That's true of some - hornwort comes to mind as being particularly fond of
dissolved minerals - but ime Water Hyacinths practically have to be put
into more acidic water when they look limp.
--
derek