From: "Happy'Cam'per"
Organization: Fish Lover
Newsgroups: rec.ponds
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:40:23 +0200
Subject: pH vs. Total Alkalinity

Hi Jan How are you? Hope you are well.
Just perused the link you supplied and this seems to be pertaining to
terrestrial crop soils which is a completely different system. I can't
comment on PH in soils as I have zero expertise in this field ;o.
However, when it comes to aquatic plants I can assure you that plants are
more than comfortable within our ph ranges, lets say between 7 and 9, is
that reasonable?
Aquatic plants will not do better at low ph ranges, but will thrive in high
ph's. The more mineral salts the better.
Different plants prefer certain uptake of nutrients, for instance,
Vallisneria and Elodea will do well in high ph hard water because they
prefer the uptake of Bicarbonates as a carbon source and will suck it
directly from the water column! So these 2 plants will not do so well in low
ph soft water.
98% of the aquatic plants in the market will do just fine at PH 7-8.5.
Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth, really,
I'm not being a wise ass!
I have been running a high light co2 planted tank for the last 2 years, my
ph out the tap is 8.5 and my KH is 5, I push the ph down to about 6.9 - 7
with CO2 injection, I'll post some pics and you can see how well the plants
are doing. Admittedly the water is not very hard but I promise you it just
does not make a difference.
To the OP Gabrielle, I still believe that its a nutrient deficiency and
probably NO3, floating plants are relying on nutrients from the water
column, I'm pretty certain that they're starving.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**


You make some wild claims here!

"Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth,
really,"

What is your evidence? Do aquatic plants have a different mechanism for
absorbing nutrients than terrestrials? I was always taught that pH alters
the form of certain nutrients causing them to be able to be absorbed or to
prevent them from being absorbed. Do the laws of chemistry stop working in
the aquatic environment?

I agree that most plants do well in a middle range pH because the nutrients
are available at those pH levels. However, different plants utilize
different nutrients just like different animals have different diets. Bog
plants usually need highly acidic conditions to thrive and many of the
carnivorous plants cannot survive in a middle range pH. And I am sure there
are other examples of plants that thrive in the opposite conditions. The
world of plants is a very complex one and blanket statements are rarely
accurate and often mislead people and generally confuse everyone.

If you are going to refute scientific evidence, please do so with other
scientific evidence. Empirical data is great but varies from person to
person and is not a justification for throwing out decades of plant
physiology research.

Sorry for the tone of this email Happy Camper. I'm having a bad day I
guess.

Strips aren't always accurate either. I highly recommend the Hagen Nutrafin
High Range test kit, especially if having troubles with high pH, as it will
let you know just how high yours really is. ~ jan

Another mistake, should read WIDE range, instead of High Range. ~ jan
~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Strips aren't always accurate either. I highly recommend the Hagen Nutrafin
High Range test kit, especially if having troubles with high pH, as it will
let you know just how high yours really is. ~ jan

Another mistake, should read WIDE range, instead of High Range. ~ jan
~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Hi Jan How are you? Hope you are well.

I'm fine and feisty today. )

Just perused the link you supplied and this seems to be pertaining to
terrestrial crop soils which is a completely different system. I can't
comment on PH in soils as I have zero expertise in this field ;o.
However, when it comes to aquatic plants I can assure you that plants are
more than comfortable within our ph ranges, lets say between 7 and 9, is
that reasonable?

IME, most "growing above water level (non-submerged) aquatic plants, are
similar in needs to terrestrial plants, and do better in the mid-ranges of
7 to 8, with some doing fine 5 to 7.5 (think bog plants, very acidic
conditions). There are others I'm sure that can handle the upper ranges,
which I assume is in your planted aquaria? Though you do confuse me when
you say they grow well at high pH, yet your aquaria isn't running at a high
pH???

Derek mentioned, WH, and IME also, tend to go downhill when the pH is 8.5
and up.

98% of the aquatic plants in the market will do just fine at PH 7-8.5.

See, we are on the same page, only I believe one has hit the top at 8.4....
Going back to the OP problem, her test strips only test to 8.4, so we don't
have any idea how high her pH really is, just because the color is just a
hair darker/brighter, does mean it is just a hair above 8.4 (been there,
done that, and when I got the WIDE range test kit had a pH of 9.0).

Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth, really,
I'm not being a wise ass!

It is a highly studied fact, that all plants have a pH at which they take
up the majority of needed nutrients. One could dose a plant with Ironite
say, but if the pH isn't in the range that the plant can make use of it, it
will still yellow and die. Thrive... yes, most plants can live a long time
in bad conditions, even survive, but just like koi, won't grow as big or be
as pretty in color (bloom).

To the OP Gabrielle, I still believe that its a nutrient deficiency and
probably NO3, floating plants are relying on nutrients from the water
column, I'm pretty certain that they're starving.

And I'm totally certain, it's her pH. ;o)

So from an aquatic website:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertil...ate-kelly.html
*I quote*

* Most macronutrients (N, Ca, Mg, P, K, S) are maximally available
at a pH of 6 to 7. Most micronutrients (Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Co) are
more readily available at a low pH. [Note that most aquarists,
in contrast to farmers, would not consider very soluble phosphorus
to be a good thing! Also, at mid to high pH the available N is
NO3-, which is rumored NOT to be preferred by aquatic plants. The
preferred ammonium N is most available near pH=6 or below.]*

Now for happy fish, plants, and more importantly, imo, the filter bacteria,
it is good to have pH above 6.5 and below 8.5, with the optimium being
between 7 to 8.

Getting back to the OP, her pH from the tap didn't come in high, so
something in the pond is making it so, and that is what she has to figure
out and correct. It could just be a balance thing, bring the KH up high
while the pH is high, then do water changes and see if that fixes the
problem. This worked for me, I'm hoping it will work for her. ) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Hi Jan How are you? Hope you are well.

I'm fine and feisty today. )

Just perused the link you supplied and this seems to be pertaining to
terrestrial crop soils which is a completely different system. I can't
comment on PH in soils as I have zero expertise in this field ;o.
However, when it comes to aquatic plants I can assure you that plants are
more than comfortable within our ph ranges, lets say between 7 and 9, is
that reasonable?

IME, most "growing above water level (non-submerged) aquatic plants, are
similar in needs to terrestrial plants, and do better in the mid-ranges of
7 to 8, with some doing fine 5 to 7.5 (think bog plants, very acidic
conditions). There are others I'm sure that can handle the upper ranges,
which I assume is in your planted aquaria? Though you do confuse me when
you say they grow well at high pH, yet your aquaria isn't running at a high
pH???

Derek mentioned, WH, and IME also, tend to go downhill when the pH is 8.5
and up.

98% of the aquatic plants in the market will do just fine at PH 7-8.5.

See, we are on the same page, only I believe one has hit the top at 8.4....
Going back to the OP problem, her test strips only test to 8.4, so we don't
have any idea how high her pH really is, just because the color is just a
hair darker/brighter, does mean it is just a hair above 8.4 (been there,
done that, and when I got the WIDE range test kit had a pH of 9.0).

Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth, really,
I'm not being a wise ass!

It is a highly studied fact, that all plants have a pH at which they take
up the majority of needed nutrients. One could dose a plant with Ironite
say, but if the pH isn't in the range that the plant can make use of it, it
will still yellow and die. Thrive... yes, most plants can live a long time
in bad conditions, even survive, but just like koi, won't grow as big or be
as pretty in color (bloom).

To the OP Gabrielle, I still believe that its a nutrient deficiency and
probably NO3, floating plants are relying on nutrients from the water
column, I'm pretty certain that they're starving.

And I'm totally certain, it's her pH. ;o)

So from an aquatic website:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertil...ate-kelly.html
*I quote*

* Most macronutrients (N, Ca, Mg, P, K, S) are maximally available
at a pH of 6 to 7. Most micronutrients (Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Co) are
more readily available at a low pH. [Note that most aquarists,
in contrast to farmers, would not consider very soluble phosphorus
to be a good thing! Also, at mid to high pH the available N is
NO3-, which is rumored NOT to be preferred by aquatic plants. The
preferred ammonium N is most available near pH=6 or below.]*

Now for happy fish, plants, and more importantly, imo, the filter bacteria,
it is good to have pH above 6.5 and below 8.5, with the optimium being
between 7 to 8.

Getting back to the OP, her pH from the tap didn't come in high, so
something in the pond is making it so, and that is what she has to figure
out and correct. It could just be a balance thing, bring the KH up high
while the pH is high, then do water changes and see if that fixes the
problem. This worked for me, I'm hoping it will work for her. ) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Hi Jan How are you? Hope you are well.

I'm fine and feisty today. )

Just perused the link you supplied and this seems to be pertaining to
terrestrial crop soils which is a completely different system. I can't
comment on PH in soils as I have zero expertise in this field ;o.
However, when it comes to aquatic plants I can assure you that plants are
more than comfortable within our ph ranges, lets say between 7 and 9, is
that reasonable?

IME, most "growing above water level (non-submerged) aquatic plants, are
similar in needs to terrestrial plants, and do better in the mid-ranges of
7 to 8, with some doing fine 5 to 7.5 (think bog plants, very acidic
conditions). There are others I'm sure that can handle the upper ranges,
which I assume is in your planted aquaria? Though you do confuse me when
you say they grow well at high pH, yet your aquaria isn't running at a high
pH???

Derek mentioned, WH, and IME also, tend to go downhill when the pH is 8.5
and up.

98% of the aquatic plants in the market will do just fine at PH 7-8.5.

See, we are on the same page, only I believe one has hit the top at 8.4....
Going back to the OP problem, her test strips only test to 8.4, so we don't
have any idea how high her pH really is, just because the color is just a
hair darker/brighter, does mean it is just a hair above 8.4 (been there,
done that, and when I got the WIDE range test kit had a pH of 9.0).

Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth, really,
I'm not being a wise ass!

It is a highly studied fact, that all plants have a pH at which they take
up the majority of needed nutrients. One could dose a plant with Ironite
say, but if the pH isn't in the range that the plant can make use of it, it
will still yellow and die. Thrive... yes, most plants can live a long time
in bad conditions, even survive, but just like koi, won't grow as big or be
as pretty in color (bloom).

To the OP Gabrielle, I still believe that its a nutrient deficiency and
probably NO3, floating plants are relying on nutrients from the water
column, I'm pretty certain that they're starving.

And I'm totally certain, it's her pH. ;o)

So from an aquatic website:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertil...ate-kelly.html
*I quote*

* Most macronutrients (N, Ca, Mg, P, K, S) are maximally available
at a pH of 6 to 7. Most micronutrients (Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Co) are
more readily available at a low pH. [Note that most aquarists,
in contrast to farmers, would not consider very soluble phosphorus
to be a good thing! Also, at mid to high pH the available N is
NO3-, which is rumored NOT to be preferred by aquatic plants. The
preferred ammonium N is most available near pH=6 or below.]*

Now for happy fish, plants, and more importantly, imo, the filter bacteria,
it is good to have pH above 6.5 and below 8.5, with the optimium being
between 7 to 8.

Getting back to the OP, her pH from the tap didn't come in high, so
something in the pond is making it so, and that is what she has to figure
out and correct. It could just be a balance thing, bring the KH up high
while the pH is high, then do water changes and see if that fixes the
problem. This worked for me, I'm hoping it will work for her. ) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"figaro" wrote in message
...

"Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth,
really,"

What is your evidence?

Experience...aswell as experience through other hobbyists.

Do aquatic plants have a different mechanism for
absorbing nutrients than terrestrials?

Yes they do...
This is why they can survive in water and terrestrial plants cannot!!!

I was always taught that pH alters
the form of certain nutrients causing them to be able to be absorbed or to
prevent them from being absorbed. Do the laws of chemistry stop working
in
the aquatic environment?

No the laws are obviously still there but what I'm saying is in our AQUATIC
HOBBY ENVIRONMENT we all pretty much have the same ph ranges ie. 6.5 - 8.
Within these ranges our plants SHOULD thrive, all things being equal, light,
space, water, nutrients etc etc.


I agree that most plants do well in a middle range pH because the
nutrients
are available at those pH levels. However, different plants utilize
different nutrients just like different animals have different diets. Bog
plants usually need highly acidic conditions to thrive and many of the
carnivorous plants cannot survive in a middle range pH.

YES, but this particular thread is relating to WATER HYACINTH. A floating
plant that is not rooted in soil!!!! It takes its nutrients directly from
the water column.


If you are going to refute scientific evidence, please do so with other
scientific evidence. Empirical data is great but varies from person to
person and is not a justification for throwing out decades of plant
physiology research.

Cheese and Rice, you really have it in for me dont ya
I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm specifically keeping it within 'the
hobby'. Getit?


Sorry for the tone of this email Happy Camper. I'm having a bad day I
guess.

So I see, well I hope the rest of your day has treated you better.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

"figaro" wrote in message
...

"Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth,
really,"

What is your evidence?

Experience...aswell as experience through other hobbyists.

Do aquatic plants have a different mechanism for
absorbing nutrients than terrestrials?

Yes they do...
This is why they can survive in water and terrestrial plants cannot!!!

I was always taught that pH alters
the form of certain nutrients causing them to be able to be absorbed or to
prevent them from being absorbed. Do the laws of chemistry stop working
in
the aquatic environment?

No the laws are obviously still there but what I'm saying is in our AQUATIC
HOBBY ENVIRONMENT we all pretty much have the same ph ranges ie. 6.5 - 8.
Within these ranges our plants SHOULD thrive, all things being equal, light,
space, water, nutrients etc etc.


I agree that most plants do well in a middle range pH because the
nutrients
are available at those pH levels. However, different plants utilize
different nutrients just like different animals have different diets. Bog
plants usually need highly acidic conditions to thrive and many of the
carnivorous plants cannot survive in a middle range pH.

YES, but this particular thread is relating to WATER HYACINTH. A floating
plant that is not rooted in soil!!!! It takes its nutrients directly from
the water column.


If you are going to refute scientific evidence, please do so with other
scientific evidence. Empirical data is great but varies from person to
person and is not a justification for throwing out decades of plant
physiology research.

Cheese and Rice, you really have it in for me dont ya
I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm specifically keeping it within 'the
hobby'. Getit?


Sorry for the tone of this email Happy Camper. I'm having a bad day I
guess.

So I see, well I hope the rest of your day has treated you better.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

Experience...aswell as experience through other hobbyists.

Well.... ah, flash credentials blushing... as a Master Gardener I have
to follow researched and written articles by PhDs in their field of study
regarding this subject.

This is why they can survive in water and terrestrial plants cannot!!!

Ewww, cringing at that exclamation... ah.... I've got terrestrial plants
growing in my pond, roots fully submerged, their root system just had to be
conditioned to grow so. Calla & Cannas, normal recommended terrestrial
plants, and many others can be conditioned to grow this way.

No the laws are obviously still there but what I'm saying is in our AQUATIC
HOBBY ENVIRONMENT we all pretty much have the same ph ranges ie. 6.5 - 8.
Within these ranges our plants SHOULD thrive, all things being equal, light,
space, water, nutrients etc etc.

That's right, yeaaa! But earlier you were... ah... saying a pH up to 9. ;o)

OP only knows that her pH tester has topped out. So we're in a "need more
info" situation. ) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Experience...aswell as experience through other hobbyists.

Well.... ah, flash credentials blushing... as a Master Gardener I have

Well jeez, how can I compete with a master gardener!
I rest my head in shame...
--
**So long, and thanks for all the ********!**

No matter what I do, the pH keeps zooming up, even though the water is
slightly acidic when it comes out of the tap. I've done massive water
changes which bring the pH down to about 7, but then it hits 8 within 24
hours and goes to 9 by day 3. I've put pieces of the log and rock in
glass dishes with tap water and can't replicate the pH change. The algae
is going wild and the plants are dying, except the parrots feather which
is simply not thriving. Could evaporation have an effect here? I'm in
southwestern Arizona and it is hot & dry.

Gabrielle, disgusted and worried about the fish and turtles

No matter what I do, the pH keeps zooming up, even though the water is
slightly acidic when it comes out of the tap. I've done massive water
changes which bring the pH down to about 7, but then it hits 8 within 24
hours and goes to 9 by day 3. I've put pieces of the log and rock in
glass dishes with tap water and can't replicate the pH change. The algae
is going wild and the plants are dying, except the parrots feather which
is simply not thriving. Could evaporation have an effect here? I'm in
southwestern Arizona and it is hot & dry.

Gabrielle, disgusted and worried about the fish and turtles

No matter what I do, the pH keeps zooming up, even though the water is
slightly acidic when it comes out of the tap. I've done massive water
changes which bring the pH down to about 7, but then it hits 8 within 24
hours and goes to 9 by day 3. I've put pieces of the log and rock in
glass dishes with tap water and can't replicate the pH change. The algae
is going wild and the plants are dying, except the parrots feather which
is simply not thriving. Could evaporation have an effect here? I'm in
southwestern Arizona and it is hot & dry.

Gabrielle, disgusted and worried about the fish and turtles

Gabrielle

I'm no master gardener but I have another suggestion:
Maybe your ph out of the tap IS 9. You must realise that when the water is
fresh out the tap it contains higher levels of co2, once the co2 gasses out
your ph rises to its natural value. Put some tap water in a bucket, let it
stand for a day or 2 and then test it, if its still 7 or near about that
then you definitely know that its something leeching from your pond that is
causing the rise in ph.
This is quite confusing is'nt it? Not to worry, I'm sure the Porgers will
have you sorted in no time. Patience, don't get yourself frustrated, don't
make too many more changes or else the fish and turtles might get freaked
out, for the time being they'll be fine in the high ph!

I read in Diana Walstads book that some types of algae can raise the ph due
to certain processes, I'll dig it up and post it here for you.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

"Gabrielle" wrote in message
...
No matter what I do, the pH keeps zooming up, even though the water is
slightly acidic when it comes out of the tap. I've done massive water
changes which bring the pH down to about 7, but then it hits 8 within 24
hours and goes to 9 by day 3. I've put pieces of the log and rock in
glass dishes with tap water and can't replicate the pH change. The algae
is going wild and the plants are dying, except the parrots feather which
is simply not thriving. Could evaporation have an effect here? I'm in
southwestern Arizona and it is hot & dry.

Gabrielle, disgusted and worried about the fish and turtles

Gabrielle

I'm no master gardener but I have another suggestion:
Maybe your ph out of the tap IS 9. You must realise that when the water is
fresh out the tap it contains higher levels of co2, once the co2 gasses out
your ph rises to its natural value. Put some tap water in a bucket, let it
stand for a day or 2 and then test it, if its still 7 or near about that
then you definitely know that its something leeching from your pond that is
causing the rise in ph.
This is quite confusing is'nt it? Not to worry, I'm sure the Porgers will
have you sorted in no time. Patience, don't get yourself frustrated, don't
make too many more changes or else the fish and turtles might get freaked
out, for the time being they'll be fine in the high ph!

I read in Diana Walstads book that some types of algae can raise the ph due
to certain processes, I'll dig it up and post it here for you.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

"Gabrielle" wrote in message
...
No matter what I do, the pH keeps zooming up, even though the water is
slightly acidic when it comes out of the tap. I've done massive water
changes which bring the pH down to about 7, but then it hits 8 within 24
hours and goes to 9 by day 3. I've put pieces of the log and rock in
glass dishes with tap water and can't replicate the pH change. The algae
is going wild and the plants are dying, except the parrots feather which
is simply not thriving. Could evaporation have an effect here? I'm in
southwestern Arizona and it is hot & dry.

Gabrielle, disgusted and worried about the fish and turtles