"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Gareee© wrote:

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
MC wrote:

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.

40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.


How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have
a
number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches.

In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open
with
a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
6-12" below the waterline.

Thanks, Derek. I'll save this, and try that this year. We didn' get near as
much snow as I thought we would last year, but we've had a ton of rain this
year, so we might get more cold, and more snow as well.

--
Gareee© (Gareee "at" Charter "dot" net)
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi absolutely
do not do well in water under about 40 degrees. They may make it but it can
be a real struggle in the spring as in their weakened state they are very
suseptable to parasites and bacterial infections...
Janet in cloudy Niagara Falls

--

"MC" wrote in message
om...
Again, if the combination of your climate and depth of your pond
allows, a deicer is great, but I don't think it fits all situations.
Contrary to what many people think, Koi don't hibernate.

"George" wrote in message
...
"Janet" wrote in message
...


--

"MC" wrote in message
om...
After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
escape. My questions a

1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.



FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi

I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the
solar
blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at
all.
The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a
stock
tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to
do
it...
Janet in Niagara Falls

The de-icer worked great for me.

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...

In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open
with
a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
6-12" below the waterline.

Will a fountain run winter long, and also help add oxygen as well?

We have a 2 ft tall gargoyle fountain that might help prevent ice formation,
and increase oxy flow...


--
Gareee© (Gareee "at" Charter "dot" net)
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

Derek Broughton wrote in message ...
Gareee© wrote:

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
MC wrote:

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.

40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.


How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a
number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches.

In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with
a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
6-12" below the waterline.

Or go for the belt AND suspenders approach, and use both.

My pond is shallow enough to freeze solid in Ottawa, so for heating I
use a 60'/300W length of eaves de-icing cable (available at HD). I
just spread it roughly around the bottom when I "close down" the pond,
then plug it in when it starts to freeze. I also bought about the
biggest aquarium air pump I could find, and run that straight out the
end of the plastic air-line (I don't use an airstone; I don't know
honestly know whether getting max flow or finer bubbles is more
important). The end of the airline is threaded through a brick so it
sits near the bottom. The hole still sometimes freezes over during
January cold snaps (I'm not too worried, as I figure if the air is
going in, it must also be coming back out somewhere....). Note that
my objective isn't to keep the entire pond open: just to prevent it
from freezing all the way to the bottom, and have one hole for gas
exchange.

-- Kizhe

A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes.
Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather.

A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300
gallon pond as a rule of thumb. I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters.
That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover.
I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an
insulater, It will keep the temp above 40.

Derek Broughton wrote in message ...
MC wrote:

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.

40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.

I plan on definitely using a air pump to provide oxygen. I tried
suspending one below the surface 2 years from a floating piece of
foam. When it got really cold, it froze and didn't keep a hole open.

One thing that helped keep a hole open and was cheap to run was my
submersible halogen pond light. I suspended it a little below the
surface and it it generated enough heat except in the very coldest
part of winter.



wrote in message ...
Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond liner. or,
suspend it from something over the pond.
I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find some way of
suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow.
you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket filter with a
pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the winter.
in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the winter. my 1600
gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days all winter
too. Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
escape. My questions a

1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.



FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

-25C is about -13F. You must get great sun and be protected from the
wind. I've seen 4 foot high waterfalls freeze in temps that cold. How
does a small air bubbler keep the water from freezing?

Derek Broughton wrote in message ...
Gareee© wrote:

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
MC wrote:

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.

40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.


How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a
number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches.

In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with
a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
6-12" below the waterline.

I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at
night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost
full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my
cover down to the bottom of the pond.

wrote in message ...
Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond liner. or,
suspend it from something over the pond.
I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find some way of
suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow.
you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket filter with a
pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the winter.
in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the winter. my 1600
gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days all winter
too. Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
escape. My questions a

1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.



FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Having the cover suspended, but fully enclosing the pond area, creates a
dead air space above the pond. Still air is a good insulator. The solar
blanket is a good solar collector and does not have to be in contact with
the water to work. I use the solar blanket with two layers of poly sheeting
stretched over a lean-to of 2X4's and with heaters in the skimmer, I
maintain a temperature of 70 degrees most of the winter with a temperature
of about 62 as the low. Fish are fed every day, at least once. Filters are
functional year round.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"MC" wrote in message
om...
I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at
night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost
full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my
cover down to the bottom of the pond.

wrote in message
...
Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond
liner. or,
suspend it from something over the pond.
I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find
some way of
suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow.
you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket
filter with a
pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the
winter.
in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the
winter. my 1600
gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days
all winter
too. Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
escape. My questions a

1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.



FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"MC" wrote in message
om...
After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
escape. My questions a

1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.



FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi


I am no expert at this. In fact I am a first year ponder. I have been
lurking in this group for six months or so and have read several book on
ponding. So for what it's worth here is my advise.
I'm using a bubbler and a stock tank heater as a back up if it looks like
the bubbler can't handle the job. Remember you are only trying to keep the
pond from freezing over completely. I live in central MO 1200 gallons 26"
deep, don't know the zone. I have been told that you should not run the pump
in the winter it will mix all the different layers of water disturbing that
warm layer at the bottom. Yes the warm water is at the bottom. If it where
on top the pond would freeze from the bottom up. This is also why you only
put the bubbler about six " below the service. As fare as the filter you
really don't need it either, you stop feeding the fish at a water temp of 45
degrease . so there is little to no litter from them that the bubbler can't
handle and algae is not going to form at those temps either. The fish stay
at the bottom where the water is warmest and seam to do OK even the Koi.
Don't start to feed the fish again before the water temp goes above 45-50
degrease and will stay there. Fish don't digest food under 45 degrease and
the undigested food can harm, or even kill them.
What I need help on is how do I over winter my Water Lettuce, my Marginal
and Bog plants. I know to put my Lilly's in the deepest part of the pond.
The others I will bring onto the house but don't know how to go about doing
this?

"Rick" wrote in message
nk.net...

"MC" wrote in message
om...
Snippage
What I need help on is how do I over winter my Water Lettuce, my Marginal
and Bog plants. I know to put my Lilly's in the deepest part of the pond.
The others I will bring onto the house but don't know how to go about
doing
this?

I'm going to try my water lettuce in my fish tank, I just wish I'd got it
before my water hyacynth gave up the ghost

Peter

I kept a hole open all winter with:
small maxi 1000 water pump with hose running water just over one of those flat
aluminum bird bath heaters http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/mypond/wi...ondheater.html
the pond is a small preformed 220 gallon.
I have kept a hole open with two large round airstones on a kmart double outlet air
pump positioned right above a 100 watt heater.
my problem is when the electricity goes out. that is why I went to the covered pond.
then I decided I didnt like my fish going without food that long. that is when I
bought the 500 watt.
now AES is on BACK ORDER. !!!!!
Ingrid

(MC) wrote:

A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes.
Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather.

A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300
gallon pond as a rule of thumb. I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters.
That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover.
I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an
insulater, It will keep the temp above 40.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

(MC) wrote:

My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my
cover down to the bottom of the pond.

Snow and ice float.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

MC wrote:

A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes.
Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather.

You're kidding me? I could have sworn I had a hole in the ice surface all
winter. A bubbler will work in any weather I've had to encounter in zone 6
- for you, you might have to resort to something else for three or four
days.

A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300
gallon pond as a rule of thumb.

That might just barely work in an aquarium in a house, where you're not
dealing with a solid-gas phase change. Remember, it takes 40 times the
energy to change ice to water as it does to raise the temperature of water
1 degree.

I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters.
That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover.
I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an
insulater, It will keep the temp above 40.

Even if I were to accept your numbers, 600W x 24hours x 50days (my guess at
the number of sub-freezing days you're going to be faced with in Zone5) =
720KWh to run those heaters over the winter. Considering that I currently
have an _annual_ electricity consumption of about 500KWh, and your average
household uses 100-200KWh, monthly, that sounds completely out of whack.
--
derek

MC wrote:

A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes.
Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather.

You're kidding me? I could have sworn I had a hole in the ice surface all
winter. A bubbler will work in any weather I've had to encounter in zone 6
- for you, you might have to resort to something else for three or four
days.

A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300
gallon pond as a rule of thumb.

That might just barely work in an aquarium in a house, where you're not
dealing with a solid-gas phase change. Remember, it takes 40 times the
energy to change ice to water as it does to raise the temperature of water
1 degree.

I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters.
That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover.
I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an
insulater, It will keep the temp above 40.

Even if I were to accept your numbers, 600W x 24hours x 50days (my guess at
the number of sub-freezing days you're going to be faced with in Zone5) =
720KWh to run those heaters over the winter. Considering that I currently
have an _annual_ electricity consumption of about 500KWh, and your average
household uses 100-200KWh, monthly, that sounds completely out of whack.
--
derek