"Janet" wrote in message
...
Responses in post...

--

"George" wrote in message
. ..

"Janet" wrote in message
...
You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi absolutely
do not do well in water under about 40 degrees. They may make it but it can
be a real struggle in the spring as in their weakened state they are very
suseptable to parasites and bacterial infections...
Janet in cloudy Niagara Falls


http://www.aquariumpharm.com/article...-wintering.asp
The metabolism of koi and goldfish is controlled primarily by water
temperature. As the water cools, pond fish require less protein in their
diet. When koi and goldfish are fed high-protein food in cool water, the
excess protein is excreted as ammonia from the gills. The microscopic
organisms that make up the biological filter (and consume ammonia) also slow
down in cooler water. Improper seasonal feeding can lead to a build-up of
toxic ammonia, which stresses fish and reduces their winter survivability.
When the water temperature drops to approximately 65° F, start feeding with
Spring & Autumn Pond Food. This type of fish food is better suited for the
dietary requirements of pond fish in cool water and won't pollute the water
with excess ammonia. Some water gardeners continue to feed their fish until
they no longer come to the surface. I stop feeding my pond fish when the
water falls below 42° F.

There is no need to worry about "frozen fish" if a section of the pond is at
least 18 inches deep. Pond fish will seek the deepest part of the pond and
over-winter there until the water warms in the spring. If your pond is less
than 18 inches deep, the fish may freeze during a harsh winter.

This *may* be true in some areas but definitely not true in zones 4-7 without
heating the pond!

Which is why I suggested in another post that hweating the pond may be the only
alternative to bringing the fish inside in some area. Having said that, not
everyone lives in those zones. Even so, according to The 2003 US National
Arboretum "Web Version" of the 1990 USDA Plant Hardiness Zone Map, I live in
zone 6a (which covers much of Kentucky, where I live), and I've never had any
trouble whatsoever keeping Koi outside. I don't know anyone in my area who
raise Koi who has had serious problems. But then, I know how to raise fish.
I've been raising fish for 35 years. My oldest one is a Phillipines Maroon
Clown fish (Premnas Biaculeatus) that I have in my salt water tank (the female
of the only breeding pair in Kentucky, according to the Kentucky Aquarium
Society). She's 15 years old.

As for my Koi, they do fine in winter conditions. No problems. And I expect no
problems this winter. I use an aerator and a de-icer. But like I said, if it
gets colder where you live, or if your pond is too small or not deep enough, by
all means heat it or bring the fish inside. No one wants frozen fish.


Check with your local
pond supplier if you live in an area with harsh winters.

This is almost too funny to actually respond to, most pond stores know
absolutely nothing about actually keeping fish, let alone koi or what it takes
to have a proper koi pond..sigh...

I'm actually surprised you said this. But then, where I live there are a number
of dealers, and all of them are quite knowledgeble, but I suppose that isn't
true everywhere.


Water gardeners with
shallow ponds can keep their koi and goldfish in kiddie pools or aquariums
set up in a cool basement or garage. All that is required is an aquarium air
pump or small fountain to provide oxygenation.

What about filtration???? There is a reason koi are nicknamed pond pigs.

This is a general guide. Most guides assume that the person reading it has a
general knowledge of how to do these things. But I agree that you should have
filtration if you are going to keep the critters out of the pond for any length
of time. Water changes work for a while, but you risk the fish developing
diseases.


The fish are fed infrequently, if at all,
depending on the water temperature. pH, ammonia and nitrite should be
monitored weekly, especially if the fish are fed. Small water changes (20%)
each month will keep the water in good shape until spring. Koi are
"jumpers"-so be sure to cover the pool with bird netting!

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWe...dmaintwint.htm

Fishes: Koi, goldfish, natives and other cold-water fishes may over-winter in
your system; providing that some of the surface

area does not freeze over completely. If your fishes are fat and healthy in
the fall, their metabolisms will be depressed enough accordingly to prevent
mortality. The rule with dealing with livestock especially during the winter
is the less disturbed the better. Instances of high mortalities are almost
always attributable to poor design, overcrowding or inadequate cleaning
before the cold season; or handling them after.

Livestock should not be fed below a temperature of 50 degrees F.; The fish
may seem interested and eat, but be unableto use the food and consequently
the water will be fouled. Partial water changes should be of small volume, if
any, infrequent and literally dripped refilled.

We know that the term "hibernation" is no longer true in regards to koi...

Read my earlier post regarding this issue.

Prior to cold water hibernation your
fish(es) should have been well fed, checked for disease and disinfected if
necessary.

Here is a link to some folks who overwinter their koi in Ontario:

http://backyardpuddle.aaquaria.com/season.html



This my absolutely favourite part.... I happen to know these folks from a
respectable koi forum. She's actually quite amused that you would try to use
their site to support keeping koi in an unheated pond, especially because that
pond in the pics is a 24 inch watergarden, not a koi pond. They bring their
fish in for the winter. She is now adding information to that site so that
their position on this issue will be clear to all who view that site. I would
suggest though that the Canadian koi keepers check out the link page on that
site for their commercial site, it's one of the best (if not only!) for some
speciality items in Canada.

Not everyone lives in Canada, or needs to have their koi pond heated, in case
you didn't notice. I don't live in Canada, but we do have tough winters here
sometimes. And I've never had any trouble keeping my Koi outside in the winter
using these, or modifications of these guidelines. And do note that since she
wrote the information on the web page, if she thinks it is so amusing and
doesn't trust what she wrote, then perhaps she should laugh at herself for
posting it there for others to read and refer to in the first place.

MC, check out RTB's raised cover at his web site. A board or PVC pipe frame
may not be as difficult as you might think. There are other web sites that
demonstrate functional frames for different types / sizes / shapes of ponds.
Try Googling rec.ponds or the web. (If I hadn't been hit with a couple
viruses over the past 2 years, I could give you lots of links, but ...)
Actually skip the googling, and check BV's web site,
http://www.iheartmypond.com . [BV: send commission royalties fees to Zk,
;-) ]
HTH
--
Zk
Oregon, USDA Zone 7
3500gal pond, 13 pond piggies

"MC" wrote in message
om...
... That aside, I have an odd shaped
pond with ground on some sides and raised flower beds on another. This
would make a raised cover much more difficult than throwing a couple
of boards together to make a frame.

"RichToyBox" wrote in message news:2yH6d.47864$He1.25742@attbi_s01...
Having the cover suspended, but fully enclosing the pond area, creates a
dead air space above the pond. Still air is a good insulator ...
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

I would say that koi are to wild carp as Toy Poodles are to wolves. yeah, they can
interbreed but there aint no way a toy anything is going to make it "in the wild" and
I agree.... our koi are putzes and dont do great left out in the cold for 6 months of
the year which is why I am heating my pond to keep the temp even and warm for 10-11
months.
the long fin or butterfly koi were the result of an attempt to breed Indonesian carp
into koi and bring in some vigor. I do think the butterfly koi grow faster and seem
heartier. Ingrid

"Janet" wrote:

Derek, it may be possible that goldfish and wild carp are closely related
but not koi. Most of the vigor has been bred out of koi over the last
couple of thousand years. Koi are raised in mud ponds in Japan but they
don't spend the winters in them. They are brought into heated koi houses
that are greenhouses... Post some of these theories on some of the koi
forums with koikichi's in residence and they will quickly debunk the
theories and myths point by point...
Janet in sunny Niagara Falls




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

fancy GF can over winter outside in zone 4-5, but there is attrition. the longer the
fins, the rounder the body the less likely they are to survive winter.
they can produce much like a horse and donkey can produce a mule, but they are
different species. Ingrid



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

fancy GF can over winter outside in zone 4-5, but there is attrition. the longer the
fins, the rounder the body the less likely they are to survive winter.
they can produce much like a horse and donkey can produce a mule, but they are
different species. Ingrid



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

about the same relationship as between chimps, gorillas and humans.
http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/Sin...h_value=180090
we are both in the family Hominidae
Ingrid

Koi are "common carp", Cyprinus carpio
Goldfish are Carassius Auratus
Both belong to the family Cyprinidae


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I kept record of last time I fed above 50oF, oct. 15 and first time water above 50oF,
april 15. it is the pits. and I live in Milwaukee right next to the lake is more
moderate. INgrid

Derek Broughton wrote:

wrote:

I also think 6 months of cold and no food is just too excessive for zone 5
and
colder. Ingrid

But six months? I doubt even your climate is that bad. In zone 6, S.
Ontario, I had (usually) three months of real cold - ie, when there was any
amount of ice on the surface. Sometime in December (sometimes not 'til
January) until mid-March.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

air is better insulator. that is why our jackets have pockets filled with feathers
hold dead air and not pockets filled with water. in air the molecules are very far
apart and dont conduct well. makes em good insulator. Ingrid


Water is a better insulater than air.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

yes
yes
no

Water's a good conductor, ice less so, and snow is a pretty good insulator
(better than air).



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I have one comment (at this time) to add to this thread and that's
regarding bio-media dying when temps go below 50F. My understanding from my
KHA class was that our bio-media stay active (granted less so) down to 40F.
At 40F they, like our koi, go dormant (for lack of a better term), the
bacteria supposedly make a protective film and wait for better times.

With this in mind, last year I left one of my bio-chambers in operation
thru the winter with the small pump I use to circulate during the winter to
keep open water. When spring came and I started up the other chamber using
the big pump. I saw only a tad of ammonia for 2 weeks, that I treated with
a tad of Amquell, after which the filter was up and running. I didn't even
use BZT to jump start it. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

I would think so too. in spring the bacteria are the main culprits for disease.
functioning is all about the temperatures at which enzymes can function. while there
are optimal temps, most enzymes can function with quite a wide range. that the
biobugs arent functioning all that well in ice cold temps is illustrated by teh fact
that the string algae seems to thrive only in spring.. in my ponds and in the local
streams. Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

I have one comment (at this time) to add to this thread and that's
regarding bio-media dying when temps go below 50F. My understanding from my
KHA class was that our bio-media stay active (granted less so) down to 40F.
At 40F they, like our koi, go dormant (for lack of a better term), the
bacteria supposedly make a protective film and wait for better times.

With this in mind, last year I left one of my bio-chambers in operation
thru the winter with the small pump I use to circulate during the winter to
keep open water. When spring came and I started up the other chamber using
the big pump. I saw only a tad of ammonia for 2 weeks, that I treated with
a tad of Amquell, after which the filter was up and running. I didn't even
use BZT to jump start it. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote:

about the same relationship as between chimps, gorillas and humans.

http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/Sin...h_value=180090
we are both in the family Hominidae
Ingrid

Koi are "common carp", Cyprinus carpio
Goldfish are Carassius Auratus
Both belong to the family Cyprinidae

And Janet could have called me on the relationship of carp to goldfish -
you're right, it's not that close, but they _can_ interbreed. I've never
heard of a case of interbreeding between hominids, but it might just be
that they're all more picky. otoh, someone was promoting the theory
recently that H. Neanderthalensis never died out, it was just absorbed
through interbreeding with H. Sapiens (of course, they were the same Genus,
anyway).

I'll go so far as to take your analogy and say that Koi might bear the same
relationship to wild carp as Golden Retrievers to wolves (taxonomists might
still argue, but some do claim wolves and dogs are the same species).
Golden Retrievers are not ideally built to live wild, but occasionally they
do so anyway, and it only takes a generation of random breeding (and
selection) to breed right back to a perfectly capable wild animal. Those
of us who keep Koi in unheated ponds year-round, have almost certainly got
second-generation Koi that are indistinguishable from wild fish except that
they're still more colorful.
--
derek

wrote:

about the same relationship as between chimps, gorillas and humans.

http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/Sin...h_value=180090
we are both in the family Hominidae
Ingrid

Koi are "common carp", Cyprinus carpio
Goldfish are Carassius Auratus
Both belong to the family Cyprinidae

And Janet could have called me on the relationship of carp to goldfish -
you're right, it's not that close, but they _can_ interbreed. I've never
heard of a case of interbreeding between hominids, but it might just be
that they're all more picky. otoh, someone was promoting the theory
recently that H. Neanderthalensis never died out, it was just absorbed
through interbreeding with H. Sapiens (of course, they were the same Genus,
anyway).

I'll go so far as to take your analogy and say that Koi might bear the same
relationship to wild carp as Golden Retrievers to wolves (taxonomists might
still argue, but some do claim wolves and dogs are the same species).
Golden Retrievers are not ideally built to live wild, but occasionally they
do so anyway, and it only takes a generation of random breeding (and
selection) to breed right back to a perfectly capable wild animal. Those
of us who keep Koi in unheated ponds year-round, have almost certainly got
second-generation Koi that are indistinguishable from wild fish except that
they're still more colorful.
--
derek

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
wrote:

about the same relationship as between chimps, gorillas and humans.

http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/Sin...h_value=180090
we are both in the family Hominidae
Ingrid

Koi are "common carp", Cyprinus carpio
Goldfish are Carassius Auratus
Both belong to the family Cyprinidae

And Janet could have called me on the relationship of carp to goldfish -
you're right, it's not that close, but they _can_ interbreed. I've never
heard of a case of interbreeding between hominids, but it might just be
that they're all more picky. otoh, someone was promoting the theory
recently that H. Neanderthalensis never died out, it was just absorbed
through interbreeding with H. Sapiens (of course, they were the same Genus,
anyway).

Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with modern
humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_779587.html

I'll go so far as to take your analogy and say that Koi might bear the same
relationship to wild carp as Golden Retrievers to wolves (taxonomists might
still argue, but some do claim wolves and dogs are the same species).
Golden Retrievers are not ideally built to live wild, but occasionally they
do so anyway, and it only takes a generation of random breeding (and
selection) to breed right back to a perfectly capable wild animal. Those
of us who keep Koi in unheated ponds year-round, have almost certainly got
second-generation Koi that are indistinguishable from wild fish except that
they're still more colorful.
--
derek

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
wrote:

about the same relationship as between chimps, gorillas and humans.

http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/Sin...h_value=180090
we are both in the family Hominidae
Ingrid

Koi are "common carp", Cyprinus carpio
Goldfish are Carassius Auratus
Both belong to the family Cyprinidae

And Janet could have called me on the relationship of carp to goldfish -
you're right, it's not that close, but they _can_ interbreed. I've never
heard of a case of interbreeding between hominids, but it might just be
that they're all more picky. otoh, someone was promoting the theory
recently that H. Neanderthalensis never died out, it was just absorbed
through interbreeding with H. Sapiens (of course, they were the same Genus,
anyway).

Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with modern
humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_779587.html

I'll go so far as to take your analogy and say that Koi might bear the same
relationship to wild carp as Golden Retrievers to wolves (taxonomists might
still argue, but some do claim wolves and dogs are the same species).
Golden Retrievers are not ideally built to live wild, but occasionally they
do so anyway, and it only takes a generation of random breeding (and
selection) to breed right back to a perfectly capable wild animal. Those
of us who keep Koi in unheated ponds year-round, have almost certainly got
second-generation Koi that are indistinguishable from wild fish except that
they're still more colorful.
--
derek