george wrote:

fish simply haven't got the biology for feeling the kind
of pain that we experience.

While that is certainly a possibility, it hasn't been conclusively
shown as yet. And even if the suffering a fish experiences if of a
different order, that hardly justifies extending that suffering any
longer than necessary.

perhaps the question to be asked here is why it was allowed
to get in the such bad shape in the first place.

This looks like a distraction tactic, as it isn't particularly
relevant. Fish get injured, diseased, or grow old, just like any animal.

most of it's systems have already shut down, and so it likely
will feel very little, if anything at all by allowing it to
suffocate.

Personally, I'm not willing to take such a cavalier position based on
your idea of what is 'likely'.

I find it to be much preferable to smashing it or cutting
it's head off, as some have suggested.

Why? Are you squeamish?

Which is worse? Watching that happen to your mother, or
allowing a near-death fish to suffocate in a few hours?

This comparison is highly disingenuous given your repeated comments
about anthropomorphizing.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

george wrote:

I was trying to prove the point that fish aren't human, don't have
human emotions, feelings, and certainly do not have the nervous
system to feel pain the way we do.

That's multiple points, some of which are empirically true, and the
others you utterly failed to prove. Maybe if you tried holding your
breath and stomping your feet the next time you presented your opinion
as factual you'd get better results.



--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

george wrote:

I was trying to prove the point that fish aren't human, don't have
human emotions, feelings, and certainly do not have the nervous
system to feel pain the way we do.

That's multiple points, some of which are empirically true, and the
others you utterly failed to prove. Maybe if you tried holding your
breath and stomping your feet the next time you presented your opinion
as factual you'd get better results.



--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

Well the way I see it, Rotenone (sp?) is an approved and widely used
product for dispensing of fish, its indiscriminate in what dies and
what lives when applied, be it in a fish tank, pond lake or what have
you and it does its job by depletion of oxigen, so evidently for it to
be as widely accepted as it is, it must for the most part be
considered humane.so evidentlyu oxygen starvation is an approved and
accepted method...I could not see it to kill fish in an aquarium,.
but hey it will kill a fish and thats what this topic is about. I
don;t say I condone it or approve of it, but its a method.......
available in powder and liquid, and its available in lots of garden
centers etc as its commonly used as an insecticide.Controlled
applications in non contained waters, no control permits needed in
contained waters.....i most states. So bucket with water, that should
satisfy those that say its inhumane to allow fish to die out of water,
and apply rotenone........presto, euthanized fish.......no kitchen
utensils to clean up and no nasty skid marks on the driveway.

I can;t see it being any worse than what a lot say as to using clove
oil and vodka etc, and then freezing etc.......afterall there are
critics that say lethal injection method of execution is not as
painless as everyone says it is, so how does anyone know a fish is
actually pain free or just imopbilized when using clove oil
etc.......its a shot in the dark at best.......what ever turns your
handle.....go for it, its your life you paid for the fish its your
decision, and I am not the one to judge......

Of course I still go for baggie full of Budweiser myself!
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

"george" wrote in message
news:cCkvd.564943$D%.212354@attbi_s51...
snip
I am not a PETA dork, nor do I support that organization in any way.
However, that does not mean that I am going to take a living creature
and
cause it suffering. Tossing a fish on the ground to let it die is akin
to
tossing you into the pond and holding you under.

So you too think that fish and humans have equal value? Sorry, as much as
I
love raising fish, I have to disagree. And I don't think a fish that is
near
death is going to suffer much by pulling it out of the water and letting
it
suffocate. They don't have the nervous system that we do, so to suggest
that
they feel pain like we do is a bit naive, and quite anthropomorhic.

I am starting to believe you are just trolling, but I'll continue to bite.

I do believe all living creatures are on some level equal to humans in
importance. More importantly, what I believe is that it's narcissitic for
humans to believe they are somehow above other creatures and therefore have
some right to treat them poorly.

You "don't think" the fish will suffer, but you don't know. It's your
responsibility to ensure as little suffering for that creature as you can,
IMHO. Just because they do not have the nervous system that we have, does
not mean they do not feel pain, and does not mean they should be treated
without regard.

BV.

"george" wrote in message
news:cCkvd.564943$D%.212354@attbi_s51...
snip
I am not a PETA dork, nor do I support that organization in any way.
However, that does not mean that I am going to take a living creature
and
cause it suffering. Tossing a fish on the ground to let it die is akin
to
tossing you into the pond and holding you under.

So you too think that fish and humans have equal value? Sorry, as much as
I
love raising fish, I have to disagree. And I don't think a fish that is
near
death is going to suffer much by pulling it out of the water and letting
it
suffocate. They don't have the nervous system that we do, so to suggest
that
they feel pain like we do is a bit naive, and quite anthropomorhic.

I am starting to believe you are just trolling, but I'll continue to bite.

I do believe all living creatures are on some level equal to humans in
importance. More importantly, what I believe is that it's narcissitic for
humans to believe they are somehow above other creatures and therefore have
some right to treat them poorly.

You "don't think" the fish will suffer, but you don't know. It's your
responsibility to ensure as little suffering for that creature as you can,
IMHO. Just because they do not have the nervous system that we have, does
not mean they do not feel pain, and does not mean they should be treated
without regard.

BV.

"george" wrote in message
news:h_pvd.189005$V41.174745@attbi_s52...
snip
I was trying to prove the point that fish aren't human, don't have human
emotions, feelings, and certainly do not have the nervous system to feel
pain
the way we do. But you knew that already, didn't you?

Nobody but YOU has said that fish are akin to humans. You seem to think that
only Humans can suffer pain, and you repeatedly state that assuming fish can
feel pain is some how athropomorphic. So if your dog got hit by a car would
just let it lie there and die? I mean it's not human, it can't possibly be
pain. I suggest you step your dog's tail and tell us if it feels pain. If it
does, does that make it human?

BV.

"george" wrote in message
news:h_pvd.189005$V41.174745@attbi_s52...
snip
I was trying to prove the point that fish aren't human, don't have human
emotions, feelings, and certainly do not have the nervous system to feel
pain
the way we do. But you knew that already, didn't you?

Nobody but YOU has said that fish are akin to humans. You seem to think that
only Humans can suffer pain, and you repeatedly state that assuming fish can
feel pain is some how athropomorphic. So if your dog got hit by a car would
just let it lie there and die? I mean it's not human, it can't possibly be
pain. I suggest you step your dog's tail and tell us if it feels pain. If it
does, does that make it human?

BV.

"Bill Oertell" wrote in message
...
Is that something they learn in home ec or what?
snip

Oh your wife is going to get you for that comment. She already knows of
course.

BV.

"Bill Oertell" wrote in message
...
Is that something they learn in home ec or what?
snip

Oh your wife is going to get you for that comment. She already knows of
course.

BV.

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:cCkvd.564943$D%.212354@attbi_s51...
snip
I am not a PETA dork, nor do I support that organization in any way.
However, that does not mean that I am going to take a living creature
and
cause it suffering. Tossing a fish on the ground to let it die is akin
to
tossing you into the pond and holding you under.

So you too think that fish and humans have equal value? Sorry, as much as
I
love raising fish, I have to disagree. And I don't think a fish that is
near
death is going to suffer much by pulling it out of the water and letting
it
suffocate. They don't have the nervous system that we do, so to suggest
that
they feel pain like we do is a bit naive, and quite anthropomorhic.

I am starting to believe you are just trolling, but I'll continue to bite.

I do believe all living creatures are on some level equal to humans in
importance. More importantly, what I believe is that it's narcissitic for
humans to believe they are somehow above other creatures and therefore have
some right to treat them poorly.

You "don't think" the fish will suffer, but you don't know.
It's your responsibility to ensure as little suffering for that creature as
you can,
IMHO. Just because they do not have the nervous system that we have, does
not mean they do not feel pain, and does not mean they should be treated
without regard.

BV.

It is an anatomical certainty that fish do not have the pain receptors that
humans have, and so are not capable of feeling pain the way humans do. I:m not
suggesting that you pull a healthy fish, who might, admittedly, feel something
vagely resembling pain, if put to the test. My argument is that if a fish is in
so dire a shape that it has to be "put down", then certainly that fish is
unlikely to feel much, if any pain at all, no matter how one decides to end it's
life.

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:cCkvd.564943$D%.212354@attbi_s51...
snip
I am not a PETA dork, nor do I support that organization in any way.
However, that does not mean that I am going to take a living creature
and
cause it suffering. Tossing a fish on the ground to let it die is akin
to
tossing you into the pond and holding you under.

So you too think that fish and humans have equal value? Sorry, as much as
I
love raising fish, I have to disagree. And I don't think a fish that is
near
death is going to suffer much by pulling it out of the water and letting
it
suffocate. They don't have the nervous system that we do, so to suggest
that
they feel pain like we do is a bit naive, and quite anthropomorhic.

I am starting to believe you are just trolling, but I'll continue to bite.

I do believe all living creatures are on some level equal to humans in
importance. More importantly, what I believe is that it's narcissitic for
humans to believe they are somehow above other creatures and therefore have
some right to treat them poorly.

You "don't think" the fish will suffer, but you don't know.
It's your responsibility to ensure as little suffering for that creature as
you can,
IMHO. Just because they do not have the nervous system that we have, does
not mean they do not feel pain, and does not mean they should be treated
without regard.

BV.

It is an anatomical certainty that fish do not have the pain receptors that
humans have, and so are not capable of feeling pain the way humans do. I:m not
suggesting that you pull a healthy fish, who might, admittedly, feel something
vagely resembling pain, if put to the test. My argument is that if a fish is in
so dire a shape that it has to be "put down", then certainly that fish is
unlikely to feel much, if any pain at all, no matter how one decides to end it's
life.

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:h_pvd.189005$V41.174745@attbi_s52...
snip
I was trying to prove the point that fish aren't human, don't have human
emotions, feelings, and certainly do not have the nervous system to feel
pain
the way we do. But you knew that already, didn't you?

Nobody but YOU has said that fish are akin to humans. You seem to think that
only Humans can suffer pain, and you repeatedly state that assuming fish can
feel pain is some how athropomorphic. So if your dog got hit by a car would
just let it lie there and die? I mean it's not human, it can't possibly be
pain. I suggest you step your dog's tail and tell us if it feels pain. If it
does, does that make it human?

BV.


Wow. I think you need to take a deep breath and calm down. First of all, where
did I say that fish are akin to humans? Where did I say that only humans can
suffer pain? The fact that YOU assume that fish "suffer" as humans do is the
reason why I used the term anthropomorphic. The dog analogy is a non-sequitur
since dogs have vastly more complex nervous systems than fish, and in fact, have
nervous systems that in many ways are comparable to humans. They certainly DO
feel pain the way we do, as anyone who has ever cared for an injured dog can
attest to. I don't know why you persist in this line of reasoning, when my only
point is that a near-death fish is highly unlikely to experience much, if any
pain, and so to suggest that pulling the fish out of water and allowing it to
die is somehow inhumane is simply ludicrous.

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:h_pvd.189005$V41.174745@attbi_s52...
snip
I was trying to prove the point that fish aren't human, don't have human
emotions, feelings, and certainly do not have the nervous system to feel
pain
the way we do. But you knew that already, didn't you?

Nobody but YOU has said that fish are akin to humans. You seem to think that
only Humans can suffer pain, and you repeatedly state that assuming fish can
feel pain is some how athropomorphic. So if your dog got hit by a car would
just let it lie there and die? I mean it's not human, it can't possibly be
pain. I suggest you step your dog's tail and tell us if it feels pain. If it
does, does that make it human?

BV.


Wow. I think you need to take a deep breath and calm down. First of all, where
did I say that fish are akin to humans? Where did I say that only humans can
suffer pain? The fact that YOU assume that fish "suffer" as humans do is the
reason why I used the term anthropomorphic. The dog analogy is a non-sequitur
since dogs have vastly more complex nervous systems than fish, and in fact, have
nervous systems that in many ways are comparable to humans. They certainly DO
feel pain the way we do, as anyone who has ever cared for an injured dog can
attest to. I don't know why you persist in this line of reasoning, when my only
point is that a near-death fish is highly unlikely to experience much, if any
pain, and so to suggest that pulling the fish out of water and allowing it to
die is somehow inhumane is simply ludicrous.

"george" wrote in message
news:%uEvd.498511$wV.91467@attbi_s54...
snip
It is an anatomical certainty that fish do not have the pain receptors
that
humans have, and so are not capable of feeling pain the way humans do.
I:m not
suggesting that you pull a healthy fish, who might, admittedly, feel
something
vagely resembling pain, if put to the test. My argument is that if a fish
is in
so dire a shape that it has to be "put down", then certainly that fish is
unlikely to feel much, if any pain at all, no matter how one decides to
end it's
life.


You keep making the comparison of fish to humans. Nobody but you is
suggesting fish are on par with humans from a nervous system standpoint.
That does not change the fact that they may and probably do feel pain. That
does not change the fact that anything we can do as fish owners to minimize
this suffering is a good idea.

Using your own faulted logic, and the story of your mother ailing from old
age. Would you use a slow method of euthanasia on a loved one, simply
because they are "in so dire shape...that it is unlikely to feel much"?

BV.