george wrote:

If the fish is floating on it's side and no remedies are helping it,
it is certainly not going to last very long out of water.

Perhaps, perhaps not. That's irrelevant. If the goal is to minimize the
suffering of the animal, then the best solution is to kill it
immediately, not to let it die relatively slowly in open air.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

"Eric Schreiber" eric at ericschreiber dot com wrote in message
...
george wrote:

If the fish is floating on it's side and no remedies are helping it,
it is certainly not going to last very long out of water.

Perhaps, perhaps not. That's irrelevant. If the goal is to minimize the
suffering of the animal, then the best solution is to kill it
immediately, not to let it die relatively slowly in open air.


Excuse me for saying so, but it is a fish. How much do you think it suffers?
If it is a goldfish, it's brain pan is smaller than a pea. The fact is, people
tend to anthropomorphize their pets, be it a goldfish or a St. Benard. Do you
also euthanize a dying piece of hard coral? Or a snail? If it makes you feel
any better, you can always deliver "last rights" after it expires.

"Eric Schreiber" eric at ericschreiber dot com wrote in message
...
george wrote:

If the fish is floating on it's side and no remedies are helping it,
it is certainly not going to last very long out of water.

Perhaps, perhaps not. That's irrelevant. If the goal is to minimize the
suffering of the animal, then the best solution is to kill it
immediately, not to let it die relatively slowly in open air.


Excuse me for saying so, but it is a fish. How much do you think it suffers?
If it is a goldfish, it's brain pan is smaller than a pea. The fact is, people
tend to anthropomorphize their pets, be it a goldfish or a St. Benard. Do you
also euthanize a dying piece of hard coral? Or a snail? If it makes you feel
any better, you can always deliver "last rights" after it expires.

george wrote:

Excuse me for saying so, but it is a fish. How much do you think it
suffers?

I don't know how much a fish suffers. Neither do you. The apparent
difference between us is that I choose to err on the side of caution,
and assume that fish can experience suffering. Therefore, as a
responsible fish-keeper, I am compelled to take steps to minimize that
potential suffering.


Do you also euthanize a dying piece of hard coral? Or a snail?

I use the presence of a central nervous system as my guide.


If it makes you feel any better, you can
always deliver "last rights" after it expires.

Attempt at clever condescension noted, but what one does *after* the
animal is dead has no bearing on what it experienced as it died.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

george wrote:

Excuse me for saying so, but it is a fish. How much do you think it
suffers?

I don't know how much a fish suffers. Neither do you. The apparent
difference between us is that I choose to err on the side of caution,
and assume that fish can experience suffering. Therefore, as a
responsible fish-keeper, I am compelled to take steps to minimize that
potential suffering.


Do you also euthanize a dying piece of hard coral? Or a snail?

I use the presence of a central nervous system as my guide.


If it makes you feel any better, you can
always deliver "last rights" after it expires.

Attempt at clever condescension noted, but what one does *after* the
animal is dead has no bearing on what it experienced as it died.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

"Eric Schreiber" eric at ericschreiber dot com wrote in message
...
george wrote:

Excuse me for saying so, but it is a fish. How much do you think it
suffers?

I don't know how much a fish suffers. Neither do you. The apparent
difference between us is that I choose to err on the side of caution,
and assume that fish can experience suffering. Therefore, as a
responsible fish-keeper, I am compelled to take steps to minimize that
potential suffering.


Do you also euthanize a dying piece of hard coral? Or a snail?

I use the presence of a central nervous system as my guide.

Oh, so you do make a distinction between a human being and, say, and amoeba.
That's heartening.


If it makes you feel any better, you can
always deliver "last rights" after it expires.

Attempt at clever condescension noted, but what one does *after* the
animal is dead has no bearing on what it experienced as it died.


Like you said, how do you know what it experienced as it died? Is it even
conscious when it is dying? Does it even have a conscience? If you feel that
pulling a dying fish out of water is inhumane, don't do it. I have no problem
whatsoever because I know that by doing so, I am putting it out of its misery.
Having said that, I've rarely had to do it because I don't let my fish get into
that bad a shape. Sure, we've all had fish die suddenly. But I've been
fortunate enough to have been able to care for my fish, and have a keen enough
eye to tell when there is a problem, and so have rarely lost one due to illness.
And I've been raising fish for 35 years. I find it amazing that people will buy
feeder guppies or feeder goldfish to feed to other fish, and then worry about
how best to put a sick fish out of its misery.

"Eric Schreiber" eric at ericschreiber dot com wrote in message
...
george wrote:

Excuse me for saying so, but it is a fish. How much do you think it
suffers?

I don't know how much a fish suffers. Neither do you. The apparent
difference between us is that I choose to err on the side of caution,
and assume that fish can experience suffering. Therefore, as a
responsible fish-keeper, I am compelled to take steps to minimize that
potential suffering.


Do you also euthanize a dying piece of hard coral? Or a snail?

I use the presence of a central nervous system as my guide.

Oh, so you do make a distinction between a human being and, say, and amoeba.
That's heartening.


If it makes you feel any better, you can
always deliver "last rights" after it expires.

Attempt at clever condescension noted, but what one does *after* the
animal is dead has no bearing on what it experienced as it died.


Like you said, how do you know what it experienced as it died? Is it even
conscious when it is dying? Does it even have a conscience? If you feel that
pulling a dying fish out of water is inhumane, don't do it. I have no problem
whatsoever because I know that by doing so, I am putting it out of its misery.
Having said that, I've rarely had to do it because I don't let my fish get into
that bad a shape. Sure, we've all had fish die suddenly. But I've been
fortunate enough to have been able to care for my fish, and have a keen enough
eye to tell when there is a problem, and so have rarely lost one due to illness.
And I've been raising fish for 35 years. I find it amazing that people will buy
feeder guppies or feeder goldfish to feed to other fish, and then worry about
how best to put a sick fish out of its misery.

went to check pond temp and feed the fish ... I lifted the flap nobody there, then
they all came streaming at me from wherever and they almost jumped outta the pond
trying to get to the food. good thing I keep the netting over the pond with the
plastic over that. sheesh.
water temp 55oF. temp temp 42, wind outta the west 25 mph.
http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/mypond/winters/winter.htm
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

went to check pond temp and feed the fish ... I lifted the flap nobody there, then
they all came streaming at me from wherever and they almost jumped outta the pond
trying to get to the food. good thing I keep the netting over the pond with the
plastic over that. sheesh.
water temp 55oF. temp temp 42, wind outta the west 25 mph.
http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/mypond/winters/winter.htm
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

george wrote:

Oh brother! Are you next going to call for fish to have marriage
rights, the right to drive a car, or buy a house?

It's always amusing to see people resort to absurdity when faced with
an argument they cannot successfully counter. It's a logical fallcy,
known as the 'slippery slope'. Rarely is it taken to the extreme you've
demonstrated here.


You PETA dorks make me want to throw up.

And one more nail in the coffin, resorting to ad hominem attacks and
name calling.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

george wrote:

Oh brother! Are you next going to call for fish to have marriage
rights, the right to drive a car, or buy a house?

It's always amusing to see people resort to absurdity when faced with
an argument they cannot successfully counter. It's a logical fallcy,
known as the 'slippery slope'. Rarely is it taken to the extreme you've
demonstrated here.


You PETA dorks make me want to throw up.

And one more nail in the coffin, resorting to ad hominem attacks and
name calling.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

george wrote:

Like you said, how do you know what it experienced as it died?

As I said, I don't. However, being a responsible fish keeper, when it
comes time to kill a fish, I do so in the fastest fashion I can. In
this way, if the fish does experience pain, I minimize the suffering as
much as possible.

I'm not sure why you're having such difficulty with this concept. It's
really quite simple.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

george wrote:

Like you said, how do you know what it experienced as it died?

As I said, I don't. However, being a responsible fish keeper, when it
comes time to kill a fish, I do so in the fastest fashion I can. In
this way, if the fish does experience pain, I minimize the suffering as
much as possible.

I'm not sure why you're having such difficulty with this concept. It's
really quite simple.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

Hey DL where ya been! Haven't seen ya in a while!!

Happy Holidays ...



"Happy'Cam'per" wrote in message
...
"The Drunken Lord" wrote in message
...

We have apparently been infested with losers from rec.ponds.

And lets guess, you are the upstanding drunken mullet of the aquaria NG's?
--
"In the beginning, God said the four-dimensional divergence of an
antisymmetric,
second rank tensor equals zero, and there was Light , and it was good."

On or about Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:02:50 -0600, "Eric Schreiber" eric at
ericschreiber dot com wrote something like:

george wrote:

You PETA dorks make me want to throw up.

And one more nail in the coffin, resorting to ad hominem attacks and
name calling.

Is that the "PETA" part or the "dork" part?

" I am not a PETA"
--
Crashj