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#1
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a few pet peeves
"Moderately fragrant" or "lightly fragrant." In my experience, that
means "fragrance just perceptible" all too often, though I've been pleasantly surprised. (And, of course, fragrance varies with conditions: climate, soil, etc.) I have an unusually sensitive nose, and if I can barely detect a smell from a "moderately fragrant" rose, I've very disappointed. "For those who prefer a smaller rose[bush]." Okay, if you like miniatures or if you have a small garden, that's a selling point. I'm fortunate enough to have room, and I want BIG rosebushes. Temperatures rarely go under 20F here in the winter (zone 8b), which helps roses get big, but the assumption that I actually prefer itty-bitty bushes or "ramblers" that can barely hit 10 feet annoys the heck out of me. I realize that there's more money in 3-foot bushes and 10-foot climbers, as most people don't have a whole lot of room. A few of the Austins get big in warm climates, but few if any breeders seem to be producing tall shrubs or massive climbers on purpose, as an aim of a breeding program. Heirloom Roses (www.heirloomroses.com) does have a few roses classed under "Ramblers" that are fairly recent, fairly big, and in some cases remontant: this is encouraging. I know nothing of them apart from the catalog descriptions, but Cherries Jubilee (red, once-bloomer, 14 ft.), Christmas Snow (white, once but long season, 14 ft., and that damned "lightly fragrant" again), the German-bred Super Dorothy and Super Excelsa (12 ft., but remontant), and some of their others might be worth a try. It's probably foolish of me to expect any recent introductions to be huge plants, remontant, and strongly scented. No doubt a reliable repeat bloom means that the plant has less energy to grow large, for one thing. But if anyone knows of such roses, do let me know. At least there are the older varieties out there. Mark. |
#2
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a few pet peeves
"Mark. Gooley" writes:
"For those who prefer a smaller rose[bush]." Okay, if you like miniatures or if you have a small garden, that's a selling point. I'm fortunate enough to have room, and I want BIG rosebushes. I have a small lot, but I really like the BIG plants. Of the 50 or so roses I have, only 10 are less than 3 X 3 and that includes four miniatures. What I'm missing from your post is why. Why do you want recent introductions when there are so many oldies but goodies out there? I ran out of room long before I aquired all the ones that fit your requirements of "huge plants, remontant, and strongly scented." Temperatures rarely go under 20F here in the winter (zone 8b), which helps roses get big, but the assumption that I actually prefer itty-bitty bushes or "ramblers" that can barely hit 10 feet annoys the heck out of me. I realize that there's more money in 3-foot bushes and 10-foot climbers, as most people don't have a whole lot of room. A few of the Austins get big in warm climates, but few if any breeders seem to be producing tall shrubs or massive climbers on purpose, as an aim of a breeding program. John Starnes in Tampa is working towards breeding larger ramblers that will do well here on their own roots. He would like to create roses that grow here without all the attention required of many modern roses. I checked HMF and so far the only rose listed under his name is one that he found, not any from his breeding program. If you're interested I can send you his email, but I'd prefer to not post it on this forum. Julie |
#3
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a few pet peeves
"Unique Too" wrote: "Mark. Gooley" writes: "For those who prefer a smaller rose[bush]." Okay, if you like miniatures or if you have a small garden, that's a selling point. I'm fortunate enough to have room, and I want BIG rosebushes. I have a small lot, but I really like the BIG plants. Of the 50 or so roses I have, only 10 are less than 3 X 3 and that includes four miniatures. What I'm missing from your post is why. Why do you want recent introductions when there are so many oldies but goodies out there? I ran out of room long before I aquired all the ones that fit your requirements of "huge plants, remontant, and strongly scented." Yeah, on reflection you're probably right. My big-variety plants are still small (lack of proper care, and of course ravages of Bambi and chums): I haven't see e.g. my two plants of New Dawn putting on a big show, and the Noisettes I acquired this spring are blooming but they are still small. My Mermaids are more like brine shrimp so far (I'm told that they grow slowly when small; one rosarian at the ARS chapter in Gainesville says that his is over twelve feet high and across). Then again, the own-root Clair Matin I planted this spring has just put up several six-foot canes right from the base (it's next to a trellis near the trailer, and the deer avoid it). Patience with the real giants might be key. I think I've been having unrealistic expectations of a recent introduction being something that looks and repeats like the best of the English Roses but smothers houses given half a chance, when I should be giving my Noisettes and other potential giants more time and a better situation -- and maybe get more of them. (Raised beds may be a necessity in wetter bits of my land, too, what with roses not liking wet feet.) Mark., trying to chill out and be realistic |
#4
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a few pet peeves
In article , Mark. Gooley
wrote: Heirloom Roses (www.heirloomroses.com) does have a few roses classed under "Ramblers" that are fairly recent, fairly big, and in some cases remontant: this is encouraging. I know nothing of them apart from the catalog descriptions, but Cherries Jubilee (red, once-bloomer, 14 ft.), Christmas Snow (white, once but long season, 14 ft., and that damned "lightly fragrant" again), the German-bred Super Dorothy and Super Excelsa (12 ft., but remontant), and some of their others might be worth a try. The best scented rambler (truly a once bloomer) that I know of is Long John Silver. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/LongJohnSilver.jpg It's probably foolish of me to expect any recent introductions to be huge plants, remontant, and strongly scented. No doubt a reliable repeat bloom means that the plant has less energy to grow large, for one thing. But if anyone knows of such roses, do let me know. At least there are the older varieties out there. Westerland? It actually grows like a huge floribunda on steroids, with 8 foot canes and bloom waving at the tips. It's a bit stiff to use as a climber, at least I wasn't able to do it because the canes always snapped when I tried to train them horizontal. But I've seen it grown as a 12 - 15 ft. pillar. If you think New Dawn is strongly scented, then it has a lot of off-spring you'll think are scented: Aloha, Parade, Penny Lane, Dublin Bay, Coral Dawn, Dixieland Linda, Rhonda. I'll be interested to know how New Dawn performs for you. It has a reputation for poor rebloom in coastal California. But if you're really zone 8, then it should be a winner. The largest, best scented, best reblooming roses here often hybrid musks. They get very large, and some have very good scent - Cornelia, Francesca, Buff Beauty. Also Excellenz von Schubert. I grow them all as shrubs, and Excellenz von Schubert is the largest - not tall, but fountain shaped. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesAtoI/ExcellenzShrub.jpg Buff Beauty produces 6-7 foot canes, rather procumbent in my garden. Cornelia sends up 7 foot canes, but arching like Excellenz von Schubert. Depending on what you think about the Kordesii scent (Rosarium Uetersen is an example), Dortmund also gets huge. It takes at least 3 years to grow huge *and* rebloom well, but mine, now in the ground 3 full years, is finally reblooming quite well. The first year you'll think it's a dud. It won't throw 12 foot canes until the end of the second year. It's huge. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesAtoI/Dortmund28May03.jpg And that's after severe pruning last year when it got in the way of the dog's tennis ball and she chewed through two basals. Also, Golden Celebration is reputed to grow to 8 feet in mild climates. I only have 4 foot canes, but then I planted mine last winter. Joasine Hanet aka Glendora is huge, remontant and highly scent, damask, like Rose de Rescht but better scent and foliage. 6 feet tall, 8 feet wide. It's best with periodic whacking, but it grows a lot each season. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/JoasineMay03.jpg Mme. Pierre Oger. Best foliage of the bourbons in my garden, constant flowers. My poor plant lived in a pot too long, but it's first season in the ground it has produced three 6' canes. I will say the flowers blow in a day and look particularly loathsome in the heat. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/MmePierreOger.jpg One climber that is not widely known and can be slow to build (tho not for most people - but very slow here) is Ralph Moore's Renae. The scent is quite delicious, the pink flowers like perfect little rose buds when new and then opening flat and semi-double. Almost thornless and beautiful foliage that is as close to perfect as it gets. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/Renae.jpg Oh, and "Secret Garden Musk Climber." Very tender but clove-scented. Slow to build but grows like a climber in Southern and Central California. Mine throws 6 foot canes only, very thin wood, lots and lots of white single blooms. Hard to find, good to grow. And while we're doing white single found roses that get huge, Darlow's Enigma is another. I like big roses. There are more than enough for my purposes, scented and unscented. After all, they don't all have to be scented. I have Phyllis Bide growing next to Excellenze von Schubert, and you'd never for a moment be disappointed that Phyllis has no scent because EvS has so much. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/Phyllis.jpg Same with Sally Holmes. Pair her with a scented hybrid musk and you won't feel cheated. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/SallyTons.jpg |
#5
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a few pet peeves
"Unique Too" wrote: "Mark. Gooley" writes: "For those who prefer a smaller rose[bush]." Okay, if you like miniatures or if you have a small garden, that's a selling point. I'm fortunate enough to have room, and I want BIG rosebushes. I have a small lot, but I really like the BIG plants. Of the 50 or so roses I have, only 10 are less than 3 X 3 and that includes four miniatures. What I'm missing from your post is why. Why do you want recent introductions when there are so many oldies but goodies out there? I ran out of room long before I aquired all the ones that fit your requirements of "huge plants, remontant, and strongly scented." Yeah, on reflection you're probably right. My big-variety plants are still small (lack of proper care, and of course ravages of Bambi and chums): I haven't see e.g. my two plants of New Dawn putting on a big show, and the Noisettes I acquired this spring are blooming but they are still small. My Mermaids are more like brine shrimp so far (I'm told that they grow slowly when small; one rosarian at the ARS chapter in Gainesville says that his is over twelve feet high and across). Then again, the own-root Clair Matin I planted this spring has just put up several six-foot canes right from the base (it's next to a trellis near the trailer, and the deer avoid it). Patience with the real giants might be key. I think I've been having unrealistic expectations of a recent introduction being something that looks and repeats like the best of the English Roses but smothers houses given half a chance, when I should be giving my Noisettes and other potential giants more time and a better situation -- and maybe get more of them. (Raised beds may be a necessity in wetter bits of my land, too, what with roses not liking wet feet.) Mark., trying to chill out and be realistic |
#6
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a few pet peeves
In article , Mark. Gooley
wrote: Heirloom Roses (www.heirloomroses.com) does have a few roses classed under "Ramblers" that are fairly recent, fairly big, and in some cases remontant: this is encouraging. I know nothing of them apart from the catalog descriptions, but Cherries Jubilee (red, once-bloomer, 14 ft.), Christmas Snow (white, once but long season, 14 ft., and that damned "lightly fragrant" again), the German-bred Super Dorothy and Super Excelsa (12 ft., but remontant), and some of their others might be worth a try. The best scented rambler (truly a once bloomer) that I know of is Long John Silver. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/LongJohnSilver.jpg It's probably foolish of me to expect any recent introductions to be huge plants, remontant, and strongly scented. No doubt a reliable repeat bloom means that the plant has less energy to grow large, for one thing. But if anyone knows of such roses, do let me know. At least there are the older varieties out there. Westerland? It actually grows like a huge floribunda on steroids, with 8 foot canes and bloom waving at the tips. It's a bit stiff to use as a climber, at least I wasn't able to do it because the canes always snapped when I tried to train them horizontal. But I've seen it grown as a 12 - 15 ft. pillar. If you think New Dawn is strongly scented, then it has a lot of off-spring you'll think are scented: Aloha, Parade, Penny Lane, Dublin Bay, Coral Dawn, Dixieland Linda, Rhonda. I'll be interested to know how New Dawn performs for you. It has a reputation for poor rebloom in coastal California. But if you're really zone 8, then it should be a winner. The largest, best scented, best reblooming roses here often hybrid musks. They get very large, and some have very good scent - Cornelia, Francesca, Buff Beauty. Also Excellenz von Schubert. I grow them all as shrubs, and Excellenz von Schubert is the largest - not tall, but fountain shaped. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesAtoI/ExcellenzShrub.jpg Buff Beauty produces 6-7 foot canes, rather procumbent in my garden. Cornelia sends up 7 foot canes, but arching like Excellenz von Schubert. Depending on what you think about the Kordesii scent (Rosarium Uetersen is an example), Dortmund also gets huge. It takes at least 3 years to grow huge *and* rebloom well, but mine, now in the ground 3 full years, is finally reblooming quite well. The first year you'll think it's a dud. It won't throw 12 foot canes until the end of the second year. It's huge. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesAtoI/Dortmund28May03.jpg And that's after severe pruning last year when it got in the way of the dog's tennis ball and she chewed through two basals. Also, Golden Celebration is reputed to grow to 8 feet in mild climates. I only have 4 foot canes, but then I planted mine last winter. Joasine Hanet aka Glendora is huge, remontant and highly scent, damask, like Rose de Rescht but better scent and foliage. 6 feet tall, 8 feet wide. It's best with periodic whacking, but it grows a lot each season. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/JoasineMay03.jpg Mme. Pierre Oger. Best foliage of the bourbons in my garden, constant flowers. My poor plant lived in a pot too long, but it's first season in the ground it has produced three 6' canes. I will say the flowers blow in a day and look particularly loathsome in the heat. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/MmePierreOger.jpg One climber that is not widely known and can be slow to build (tho not for most people - but very slow here) is Ralph Moore's Renae. The scent is quite delicious, the pink flowers like perfect little rose buds when new and then opening flat and semi-double. Almost thornless and beautiful foliage that is as close to perfect as it gets. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/Renae.jpg Oh, and "Secret Garden Musk Climber." Very tender but clove-scented. Slow to build but grows like a climber in Southern and Central California. Mine throws 6 foot canes only, very thin wood, lots and lots of white single blooms. Hard to find, good to grow. And while we're doing white single found roses that get huge, Darlow's Enigma is another. I like big roses. There are more than enough for my purposes, scented and unscented. After all, they don't all have to be scented. I have Phyllis Bide growing next to Excellenze von Schubert, and you'd never for a moment be disappointed that Phyllis has no scent because EvS has so much. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/Phyllis.jpg Same with Sally Holmes. Pair her with a scented hybrid musk and you won't feel cheated. http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/SallyTons.jpg |
#7
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a few pet peeves
Cass writes:
snip If you think New Dawn is strongly scented, then it has a lot of off-spring you'll think are scented: Aloha, Parade, Penny Lane, Dublin Bay, Coral Dawn, Dixieland Linda, Rhonda.... major snip If Mark is looking for large roses your post certainly should help. You suggested 22 (yea, I counted) and most fit all three of his requirements. That should certainly fill up some of this space. g Julie |
#8
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a few pet peeves
"Mark. Gooley" writes:
I think I've been having unrealistic expectations of a recent introduction being something that looks and repeats like the best of the English Roses but smothers houses given half a chance, when I should be giving my Noisettes and other potential giants more time and a better situation -- and maybe get more of them. I'm trying to think of some of the old roses that would look like the English roses and get large. Souvenir de la Malmaison, the climber, is close, but doesn't repeat well for me. How about Sombreuil, very fragrant, lots of petals and good repeat bloom. But I guess that depends on what is in your mind when you think of English roses. To me, Abraham Darby is typical. My Darlow's Enigma and Secret Garden Musk Climber are still babies, but I'm expecting big things from them. I don't get a great deal of fragrance from either, but I love those blooms. Especially DE. They look so fragile and delicate, just perfect little flowers. Mine is planted in an area that does not get nearly enough sun, but this one hasn't stopped blooming and doesn't have a single blackspotted leaf. Reve d'Or is a great, and big, noisette. Mine did take three years or so to get going well, but now it's covering a palm and cascading to the ground. This rose has the most perfect looking buds of any rose I've ever grown. Do you have Alachua (sp?) Red? Or did I see it on the nursery site you mentioned? I wonder if it may be the same rose as Red Cascade. RC is classed as a miniature, but the only thing miniature about it is the leaves and blooms. This one will throw 20' + canes every season. It can be grown as a climber or a groundcover. A local nursery uses it for erosion control around a sink hole. Mine is growing up through a rectangular arbor and cascades down (and out and up and under the siding and everywhere else I don't cut it back.) I use the hedge trimmers each spring to cut it back to arbor size and then hack away at errant canes at least once a month. If let go it would easily be the largest rose I grow. Oh yes, and it those canes remain on the ground any length of time, they root. You could cover acres with just one of these in a couple of years. Give yours a chance to grow a little. The ones you mentioned in a recent post are some good roses (Mrs. BR Cant comes to mind first) and should fit your needs the near future. Patience, patience.....and no I don't have any to spare. g Julie |
#9
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a few pet peeves
In article , Unique Too
wrote: "Mark. Gooley" writes: I think I've been having unrealistic expectations of a recent introduction being something that looks and repeats like the best of the English Roses but smothers houses given half a chance, when I should be giving my Noisettes and other potential giants more time and a better situation -- and maybe get more of them. I'm trying to think of some of the old roses that would look like the English roses and get large. Souvenir de la Malmaison, the climber, is close, but doesn't repeat well for me. How about Sombreuil, very fragrant, lots of petals and good repeat bloom. But I guess that depends on what is in your mind when you think of English roses. To me, Abraham Darby is typical. My Darlow's Enigma and Secret Garden Musk Climber are still babies, but I'm expecting big things from them. I don't get a great deal of fragrance from either, but I love those blooms. Especially DE. They look so fragile and delicate, just perfect little flowers. Mine is planted in an area that does not get nearly enough sun, but this one hasn't stopped blooming and doesn't have a single blackspotted leaf. Reve d'Or is a great, and big, noisette. Mine did take three years or so to get going well, but now it's covering a palm and cascading to the ground. This rose has the most perfect looking buds of any rose I've ever grown. Noisettes and teas take some time to get established. (except for Mme. Alfred, who doesn't wait for anything). I like Reve d'Or, but ever since I saw a full-bore Jaune Desprez flush, I've been holding out. |
#10
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a few pet peeves
In article , Unique Too
wrote: Cass writes: snip If you think New Dawn is strongly scented, then it has a lot of off-spring you'll think are scented: Aloha, Parade, Penny Lane, Dublin Bay, Coral Dawn, Dixieland Linda, Rhonda.... major snip If Mark is looking for large roses your post certainly should help. You suggested 22 (yea, I counted) and most fit all three of his requirements. That should certainly fill up some of this space. g And I left out some huge roses with no scent, like Susan Louise. |
#11
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It's apparently absurd of me to apprehend any contempo introductions to be huge plants, remontant, and acerb scented. No agnosticism a reliable echo blossom agency that the bulb has beneath activity to grow large, for one thing. But if anyone knows of such roses, do let me know. At atomic there are the earlier varieties out there.
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