http://www.weihenstephan.de/pbpz/leach/leachen.html
Here is one for Bavaria, Germany the temperature and humidity should not
require too much extrapolation.
http://www.life.uiuc.edu/plantbio/wimovac/newpage11.htm
This model should work any where.

There is a model swheat
http://eco.wiz.uni-kassel.de/model_db/mdb/swheat.html the links are broken
out there some were that will should give one a good idea. It was writing in
87 so it may be hard to find.

That's in 10 minutes on that search.

Gordon.

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes
For water budgets try google and search for 'cotton water budget' you
will get plenty and 'UK wheat "water budget" ' brings up a bunch as well.

It does, but look at the abstracts:

Gateway for **Indian** Agriculture - Tools
... Soil Water Budget Calculator (JAVA APPLET) -. ... Crop Gross
Margin Calculator. Winter Wheat Calculator. ... Holstein UKI Bull
Database - Holstein UK and Ireland, UK. ...web.aces.uiuc.edu/aim/digli
b/india/tools.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Conservation Ecology: Linkages between water vapor flows, food ...
... yield and water use efficiency of spring wheat and barley. ...
Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK. ... Water budget of an
eastern deciduous forest stand. ...www.consecol.org/vol3/iss2/art5/app
end4.html - 19k - Cached - Similar pages

ALN No. 45: Allan: Water Stress and Global Mitigation: Water, ...
... for food is the "big" water in any national water budget. ... A
hectare of wheat, requiring about 5000-6000 cubic ... at the
University of Middlesex, London UK in 1996 ...**ag.arizona.edu**/OALS/
ALN/aln45/allan.html - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

Planet Ark : FEATURE - Water woes plague US-Mexico border
... in recent years and now demand that California live within its
water budget. ... the landscape, taking water to thirsty farms where
alfalfa and wheat drink 67,000 ...www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm
/newsid/ 16464/newsDate/18-Jun-2002/story.htm - 28k - Cached - Similar
pages

Planet Ark : FEATURE - Water woes plague US-Mexico border
... and now demand that California live within its water budget. ...
to thirsty farms where alfalfa and wheat drink 67,000 ... UK: UK
consumers uneasy over GM crops and ...
www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/ newsid/16464/story.htm - 28k -
Cached - Similar pages

National Water and Climate Center - Irrigation Information Sites
... Irrigation Scheduling - Cranfield UK Irrigation Association ...
International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center ... Plant,
Atmosphere, and Water Budget Model USBR ...
http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nrcsirr...e_bookmark.htm - 51k - Cached -
Similar pages

A further troll through and all I found was references to publications
(not on the net) and the UK sources that looked plausible only had US
data.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Xref: 127.0.0.1 sci.agricultu59281


"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger wrote:

I don't know if water evaporates at 20 degrees

Oh yes you do, yes you do....

My record high temperature is 50 C.

Now that's pretty hot. I bet it can also get pretty cold at night in
New
Mexico!

For water budgets try google and search for 'cotton water budget'
you
will get plenty and 'UK wheat "water budget" ' brings up a bunch as
well.

Not to mention what 'tze water budget' brought up on this here old
thread...

obviously you missed the bit that they all seemed to be done by UK
establishments dealing with third world or US agriculture.

Most are but some aren't. Some of the models apply anywhere.
Your research really doesn't much give a shit about the home land do they.
Here is one place that they applied a lot of the tool over the UK and EU
http://www.dow.wau.nl/whh/VSNU1999.doc

They don't spell it out but in Denmark they are collecting the data.
http://www.dmi.dk/f+u/publikation/te...99/Tr99-27.pdf

What do you pay the ag researcher to do any way?

Gordon

Going thorough them carefully all I could find that could apply to the UK
was done some were else. The UK doesn't seem to do a damn thing for the UK.

What do the fellows that you have hired to do agricultural research do
anyway.

Gordon
"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes
For water budgets try google and search for 'cotton water budget' you
will get plenty and 'UK wheat "water budget" ' brings up a bunch as well.

It does, but look at the abstracts:

Gateway for **Indian** Agriculture - Tools
... Soil Water Budget Calculator (JAVA APPLET) -. ... Crop Gross
Margin Calculator. Winter Wheat Calculator. ... Holstein UKI Bull
Database - Holstein UK and Ireland, UK. ...web.aces.uiuc.edu/aim/digli
b/india/tools.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Conservation Ecology: Linkages between water vapor flows, food ...
... yield and water use efficiency of spring wheat and barley. ...
Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK. ... Water budget of an
eastern deciduous forest stand. ...www.consecol.org/vol3/iss2/art5/app
end4.html - 19k - Cached - Similar pages

ALN No. 45: Allan: Water Stress and Global Mitigation: Water, ...
... for food is the "big" water in any national water budget. ... A
hectare of wheat, requiring about 5000-6000 cubic ... at the
University of Middlesex, London UK in 1996 ...**ag.arizona.edu**/OALS/
ALN/aln45/allan.html - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

Planet Ark : FEATURE - Water woes plague US-Mexico border
... in recent years and now demand that California live within its
water budget. ... the landscape, taking water to thirsty farms where
alfalfa and wheat drink 67,000 ...www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm
/newsid/ 16464/newsDate/18-Jun-2002/story.htm - 28k - Cached - Similar
pages

Planet Ark : FEATURE - Water woes plague US-Mexico border
... and now demand that California live within its water budget. ...
to thirsty farms where alfalfa and wheat drink 67,000 ... UK: UK
consumers uneasy over GM crops and ...
www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/ newsid/16464/story.htm - 28k -
Cached - Similar pages

National Water and Climate Center - Irrigation Information Sites
... Irrigation Scheduling - Cranfield UK Irrigation Association ...
International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center ... Plant,
Atmosphere, and Water Budget Model USBR ...
http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nrcsirr...e_bookmark.htm - 51k - Cached -
Similar pages

A further troll through and all I found was references to publications
(not on the net) and the UK sources that looked plausible only had US
data.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

That report gives me an idea or the scale of irrigating in the UK. 200,000
hectares or 772 square mile or a block 28 miles on a side. The size of small
county in Oklahoma. We have 2 people that work part time on irrigation for
230,500 hectares
http://www.nass.usda.gov/census/cens...-36/ok1_41.pdf
about the same amount of irrigated land as the UK on it's biggest year but
we have a lot less rain fall and lot higher temperatures. The numbers in the
census are low because it appears to me to not includes Bermuda grass
pasture which is a very large use of water in the Red River valley and will
thrive in salt levels that kill most plants. I know it exceeds the number of
acres of irrigated cotton by a good deal. There are no records kept on it at
all in many cases so it doesn't show up anywhere.

That paper is a nice over view of the situation. There is very little in it
that would be of practical value to some one putting in an irrigation
system. The guys I used to work wiht at Oklahoma State have a good deal more
that can help with decisions but the extension people on the Texas high
plains and the High Plains Water District can tell you every thing you need
to know in an hour if know the questions to ask if you don't they can walk
you though anything you need to know. They are used to working with crop
share landlords that just inherited an irrigated farm and don't understand
the way it works.


I just went through it for real with real mony and a lot of it in Texas
installing drip irrigation. The fellow in extension here at OSU hasn't got
ready for the cost of drip. We are always 20 years behind the high plains of
Texas on irrigation. The Plains have to have irrigation to farm we can make
a living with out it in most of Oklahoma except the Panhandle and those guys
don't pay any attention to the down state folks anyway the operate the same
as Texas and Kansas.

While working for the university I did a lot of work on soil moisture
sensors. A great deal of money can be made/saved by getting the water just
right and the one answer is a lot of cheap accurate sensors scattered over
the feild reporting to a central station via wireless.

I had a very small well that would irrigate 10 acres of cotton when I was
farming. The only time I got it right was the time I went fishing and when I
got back I though I should have started water a week earlier. Of course
using limited water weather after the irrigation has some effect on the
outcome so trying to get it right is difficult.

It is very understandable that not much work has been put into irrigation in
the UK. With your low temperatures and high humidity and not that much area
irrigated there is not much pay back from it. In your climate buried drip
doesn't have near the advantage it does in mine. The old pipe with emitters
stuck in it where you need them is probably pretty close as good for a
forth the price or less in an orchard.

Also the UK has a very few dwindling resources in the agricultural
engineering and hydrology along rest of the world except China. So I don't
expect to see much effort in that area unless it become a serious problem.
If it does they will probably have someone in that is on sabbatical from an
irrigated area an address the problem.

Reuse and proper application of water probably payback better than reducing
evaporation losses in most of the country. The irrigation game is entirely
different over there then it is here just as it deferent in west Texas as it
is to southwest Oklahoma. Your local microclimates will have a lot of effect
as well on the water needs. Making a sweeping solutions like we can do over
here work over there.

Gordon

"Michael Percy" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger wrote:

Going thorough them carefully all I could find that could apply to the
UK was done some were else.

Keith Weatherhead and Jery Knox at Silsoe has most certianly done work on
water balances in England, and I am pretty sure Tim Hess has too.

From WWeatherheads personal page at Cranfield I found a link to this
nifty report
http://www.silsoe.cranfield.ac.uk/iw.../ofwc/ofwc.htm

Mike

--
On the eighth day God installed Microsoft. On the ninth day he cursed it.
That is how that goddamned operative system was created.

Gordon Couger wrote in message
...
Going thorough them carefully all I could find that could apply to the
UK
was done some were else. The UK doesn't seem to do a damn thing for
the UK.

What do the fellows that you have hired to do agricultural research do
anyway.

Gordon

very little. Most agricultural research relevant to dairy farming in UK
is done in Ireland and New Zealand.
Funding for research in UK determines what the research is. UK
government doesn't care so the universities get funding where they can.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

Gordon Couger wrote in message
...

What do you pay the ag researcher to do any way?

what ag researchers?

that is probably too cynical. Remember we have got to the stage where in
the UK most agricultural colleges in the UK still offer courses in
agriculture, but equine, conservation and golf course green keeping are
probably bigger earners.

Anything that would produce money is "near market" and the government
will not fund it.
When I was doing search of calf feeding I never bothered with the Defra
site, I just ran a google search and came up with stuff from Ireland,
Australia and the US. When I was looking for stuff on cattle handling
facilities a google search got me a lot from the US colleges which was
fascinating but not really suitable for the sort of cattle I run
(domesticated :-)))

There isn't all that much agricultural research on increasing
agricultural profitability in the UK because it isn't a government
priority.

I was talking to the lads who went to South Dakota and they came back
most impressed. What really impressed them was that the State equivilent
of the Minister of Agriculture actually dropped round to see them and
talk to them, AND he understood agriculture. They had never met a
politician who understood agriculture.
--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'



Gordon

Gordon Couger writes

Going thorough them carefully all I could find that could apply to the UK
was done some were else. The UK doesn't seem to do a damn thing for the UK.

To be honest irrigation is very much a minority use and confined to a
bunch of potato producers and a few specialist vegetable growers.
Furthermore the main problem seems to be crop loss caused by heavy
rainfall after irrigating, which is highly site-specific. The highly
variable climate and topography in the UK also makes general statements
of precipitation and transpiration pretty useless. It really is rather
common to find farms a mile apart with rainfall differing by 10" and
soiltypes can vary erratically from heavy clay to sand to gravel in a
single acre of land.

What do the fellows that you have hired to do agricultural research do
anyway.

The universities basically no longer do any. A few have farms but this
is used for income (not any more) and research into plant and animal
physiology and to assist their vet schools.

The government used to have a whole string (perhaps 20) experimental
husbandry farms that did do very useful work. These have been either
sold off or merged with the local university (see above).

There are a few (like two?) independent crop research organisations. As
you know I belong to ARC. They do stonkingly useful work for a modest
fee, but unsurprisingly do not hand it out for free (ie the results are
confidential). If they did they would loose many farmer members (who
would get it for nothing).

Then we have the HGCA (and a dairy one the MDC). These contract work to
be done using a levy on all sales of grain (or milk). They produce quite
useful work, but never freely publish the full paper or experimental
details. They are mindblowingly inefficient, costing much more than ARC
to produce 1/100th of the number of results inadequately reported to
their contributors (and sometimes downright misleading).

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Gordon Couger writes

http://www.life.uiuc.edu/plantbio/wimovac/newpage11.htm
This model should work any where.

A splendid piece of work, pulling together a whole lot of useful stuff.

Getting the required parameters for a single UK field for a single year
of weather, though, would be a bit of a mission. If I were one of the
huge carrot growers on sand (eg round newmarket) I would get these guys
in to do soil analysis in depth for each field on the farm and install
remote weather equipment for each field or block.

Then a simple computer model would give me day-by-day information on the
irrigation need. Of course nobody else in the UK would be aware it was
even being done, let alone get a sight of the data.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Gordon Couger writes

http://www.weihenstephan.de/pbpz/leach/leachen.html
Here is one for Bavaria, Germany the temperature and humidity should not
require too much extrapolation.

Hardly. Bavaria is continental and significantly affected by local
mountain ranges.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Gordon Couger writes

That report gives me an idea or the scale of irrigating in the UK. 200,000
hectares or 772 square mile or a block 28 miles on a side. The size of small
county in Oklahoma. We have 2 people that work part time on irrigation for
230,500 hectares

Oz faints

http://www.nass.usda.gov/census/cens...-36/ok1_41.pdf
about the same amount of irrigated land as the UK on it's biggest year but
we have a lot less rain fall and lot higher temperatures.

Remember that even where irrigation is available there are years when
it's never used. Equally in a really dry summer (which were common in
the 90's) they may apply 4" or even 6" to susceptible crops.

I probably ought to add that many root crop farms are on sand. That is
almost entirely true of commercial carrot growers and very many potato
growers.

The reason for this comes in the harvesting, which typically happens in
october when winter rainfall is high. A free draining sand allows east
harvesting even in high rainfall years when on a clay harvesting may be
impossible. A couple of years ago 30% of the UK potato crop was
unharvested and much of what was harvested resulted in severe field soil
damage.

Also important are quality constraints of straight roots (that haven't
bent round stones) and low cleaning costs (stones in spuds and damage).

Come to that even leeks and winter brassicae are increasingly falling
into the same pattern, with very large farmers preferentially buying
irrigated sandland in order to produce to contract for supermarkets.

The rest of us rely on rainfall. Getting an irrigation permit is
impossible and even a winter storage scheme not guaranteed to be
allowed. Since there is sod all you can do about rainfall, no water work
is ever done on rainfed crops.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger wrote:

This is SO very reasonable, because he never made waterbudgets before
and
they are foreign to uk anyway and the data is not quite right and the
ag
researchers in uk are sleeeping and there is not much irrigate done
in
england and yadayadayadayada. Christ!


and if you are so smart, explain why we should pay for the cost of
setting up an irrigation system that isn't needed. A handful of
intensive vegetable growers on sand use irrigation, a handful of potato
growers. For the rest of us irrigation is impossible anyway because you
cannot get extraction licences.
For the vast majority of farmers in the UK it is impossible to irrigate,
it is actually illegal to irrigate because they cannot get a licence to
get the water.
It doesn't matter. Most of us spend more time worrying about field
drains than irrigation.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'


Mike

Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger wrote:

This is SO very reasonable, because he never made waterbudgets
before
and
they are foreign to uk anyway and the data is not quite right and
the
ag
researchers in uk are sleeeping and there is not much irrigate
done
in
england and yadayadayadayada. Christ!


and if you are so smart, explain why we should pay for the cost of
setting up an irrigation system that isn't needed.

The question is rather more why you cover up for that psycho.

so as usual all you do is make personal attacks.

so explain why we should pay for the cost of setting up an irrigation
system that isn't needed bearing in mind that for the vast majority of
farmers in the UK it is impossible to irrigate, it is actually illegal
to irrigate because they cannot get a licence to get the water.

--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'


Mike

--
On the eighth day God installed Microsoft. On the ninth day he cursed
it.
That is how that goddamned operative system was created.

Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger wrote:

This is SO very reasonable, because he never made waterbudgets
before
and
they are foreign to uk anyway and the data is not quite right
and
the
ag
researchers in uk are sleeeping and there is not much irrigate
done
in
england and yadayadayadayada. Christ!


and if you are so smart, explain why we should pay for the cost
of
setting up an irrigation system that isn't needed.

The question is rather more why you cover up for that psycho.

so as usual all you do is make personal attacks.

How long has it been that way?

ask your analyst

--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'



Mike
--
On the eighth day God installed Microsoft. On the ninth day he cursed
it.
That is how that goddamned operative system was created.

Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


Michael Percy wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:
Michael Percy wrote in message

The question is rather more why you cover up for that psycho.

so as usual all you do is make personal attacks.

How long has it been that way?

ask your analyst

Jim, asking questions is the easiest, no doubt.

noticed you are right out of answers


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'


Mike
--
On the eighth day God installed Microsoft. On the ninth day he cursed
it.
That is how that goddamned operative system was created.

Michael Percy wrote in message news:3dd7d735
How can you tell if I have no answers?

what makes you think I give a damn any more. Just play your silly word
games
--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'



Mike
--
On the eighth day God installed Microsoft. On the ninth day he cursed
it.
That is how that goddamned operative system was created.