"La Puce" wrote in message
ups.com...
snip
Glyphosate is the active killing ingredient in numerous proprietary
pesticides that British amateur gardeners keep bying for their nice
green lawn which includes:- ROUNDUP, EAZY WEEDER, SLAM grass and weed
killer, ZERO weed spray and wand, COMKILL, SQUADRON, TILLMASTER,
TUMBLEWEED, etc. as explained to Judith a couple of days ago. (source
Paula).
snip

I wouldn't use it on my "green lawn" as glyphosate kills grass.

La Puce wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
"Oh yes I have!".
It does not say the "toxic cloud" was glyphosphate.

What does it says then, perhaps it was a toxic cloud of custard?

On the basis of the article that you have cited and given the
toxicology of the various active compounds involved it seems most
likely that the toxic cloud was a mixture of paraquat and atrazine
(both nasty toxic compounds) and any other old cheap and nasty generic
broad spectrum weedkillers the landowners had lying around.

They were almost certainly tryng to kill glyphosate resistant weeds.
Glyphosate resistance being one of the main threats to this short
sighted Roundup(TM) ready GM lazy farmer tactic.

GM
farming uses intensive use of herbicides. If you want to be silly with
me, then so be it but I will not carry on the conversation. But if
you're not I just hope I will make change your mind in the use of
chemicals.

Glyphosate itself in pure form is about as toxic as caffeine in coffee.
I would be more worried about the surfactants.

I am no fan of Roundup Ready GM produce because it encourages farmers
to be lazy and then hit crops with an overdose of herbicide. But the
glyphosate is almost certainly blameless in this particular instance.

In Colonia Loma Senes they saw a toxic cloud made out of herbicides.
The herbicides they use has glyphosate, altrazine, picloram etc. mix.

Not all synthetic chemicals are bad. Glyphosate is astonishingly benign
in mammals considering how absolutely deadly it is to green plants.
Derivatives of it are also very deadly to the malaria parasite and are
being screened for that application too.

Glyphosate is the active killing ingredient in numerous proprietary
pesticides that British amateur gardeners keep bying for their nice
green lawn which includes:- ROUNDUP, EAZY WEEDER, SLAM grass and weed
killer, ZERO weed spray and wand, COMKILL, SQUADRON, TILLMASTER,
TUMBLEWEED, etc. as explained to Judith a couple of days ago. (source
Paula).

This is complete and utter ********. Only the terminally stupid would
apply glyphosate to a lawn. Grass is exquisitely sensitive to the
effects of glyphosate at a level where if you walk over a lawn with
boots that are wet with glyphosate overspray every footfall will show
in outline of dead grass (or worse if you had it on the soles of the
boots).

Broadleaf specific lawn weedkillers are much nastier than glyphosate
but are just about acceptable for spot weeding. I cringe everytime I
see that blasted animated frog/hedgehog/ladybird dance around on the
chemically greened lawn advert.

We are getting almost as bad as the Merkins - a land where "TruGreen
ChemLawn" is a product franchise brandname and a *selling* point. I kid
you not.

Don't buy these products. Full stop.

If you must use a chemical weedkiller then glyphosate is about as safe
as you can reasonbly get. All I would ask is that you buy generic and
not the Monsanto product.

Almost everything else is more dangerous. Even grubbing the weeds out
manually by hand risks catching tetanus from the soil. And burning them
OrganicallyTM) will produce dangerous dioxins (shock! horror!). There
is no free lunch.

Regards,
Martin Brown

wrote
La Puce wrote:
snip
Glyphosate is the active killing ingredient in numerous proprietary
pesticides that British amateur gardeners keep bying for their nice
green lawn which includes:- ROUNDUP, EAZY WEEDER, SLAM grass and
weed killer, ZERO weed spray and wand, COMKILL, SQUADRON, TILLMASTER,
TUMBLEWEED, etc. as explained to Judith a couple of days ago. (source
Paula).

This is complete and utter ********. Only the terminally stupid would
apply glyphosate to a lawn. Grass is exquisitely sensitive to the
effects of glyphosate at a level where if you walk over a lawn with
boots that are wet with glyphosate overspray every footfall will show
in outline of dead grass (or worse if you had it on the soles of the
boots).

Broadleaf specific lawn weedkillers are much nastier than glyphosate
but are just about acceptable for spot weeding. I cringe everytime I
see that blasted animated frog/hedgehog/ladybird dance around on the
chemically greened lawn advert.

We are getting almost as bad as the Merkins - a land where "TruGreen
ChemLawn" is a product franchise brandname and a *selling* point. I
kid you not.

Don't buy these products. Full stop.

If you must use a chemical weedkiller then glyphosate is about as safe
as you can reasonbly get. All I would ask is that you buy generic and
not the Monsanto product.

Almost everything else is more dangerous. Even grubbing the weeds out
manually by hand risks catching tetanus from the soil. And burning
them OrganicallyTM) will produce dangerous dioxins (shock! horror!).
There is no free lunch.

A voice of sanity, thank heavens.

It's probably a lot more eco-unfriendly to use a computer, given the
resources used up in their manufacture and the pollution caused by
subsequent disposal, than to spot treat a few hardcore weeds with
glyphosate when needs must. It's interesting how many of the Anti All
Manmade Chemicals Regardless brigade still maintain internet
connections.

--
Sue

Janet Baraclough wrote:
[...]
The article you quote, says

"The villagers quickly pointed the finger at a neighbouring farm whose
tenants were growing genetically modified soya, ENGINEERED TO BE
RESISTANT TO GLYPHOSATE. A month later, agronomists from the nearby
National University of Formosa visited the scene and confirmed the
villagers' suspicions. The researchers concluded that the neighbouring
farmers, like thousands of others growing GM soya in Argentina, had been
forced to take drastic action AGAINST RESISTANT WEEDS and had carelessly
drenched the land - and nearby Colonia Loma Senes - with A MIXTURE OF
powerful herbicides "

The implication in the above is that the weeds had become resistant
TO GLYPHOSATE, and therefore the farmers used something DIFFERENT , "a
mixture of powerful herbicides". IOW not glyphosate.

Interesting, though. I thought one of the claims for glyphosate was
that non-GM plants would not develop resistant strains. (Though I
believe there was some evidence of acquired resistance somewhere.)

--
Mike.

"La Puce" wrote in message
oups.com...

Glyphosphate ...

A YEAR ago, Colonia Loma Senes was just another rural backwater in the
north of Argentina. But that was before the toxic cloud arrived. "The
poison got blown onto our plots and into our houses," recalls local
farmer Sandoval Filemon. "Straight away our eyes started smarting. The
children's bare legs came out in rashes." The following morning the
village awoke to a scene of desolation. "Almost all of our crops were
badly damaged. I couldn't believe my eyes," says Sandoval's wife,
Eugenia. Over the next few days and weeks chickens and pigs died, and
sows and nanny goats gave birth to dead or deformed young. Months later
banana trees were deformed and stunted and were still not bearing
edible fruit.

The villagers quickly pointed the finger at a neighbouring farm whose
tenants were growing genetically modified soya, engineered to be
resistant to the herbicide glyphosate. A month later, agronomists from
the nearby National University of Formosa visited the scene and
confirmed the villagers' suspicions. The researchers concluded that the
neighbouring farmers, like thousands of others growing GM soya in
Argentina, had been forced to take drastic action against resistant
weeds and had carelessly drenched the land - and nearby Colonia Loma
Senes - with a mixture of powerful herbicides.

To read further ...

http://www1.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004...ml?c=on#c91824

apart from the disgusting actions of the 'neighbouring farm' environmental
fascists, from reading the article it strikes me as a combination of factors
including short sighted agricultural practises, the monopoly power of a
global corporation and the pursuit of profit and a failure of the (what
appears to be a very) free market.

rob

In message .com, Mike
Lyle writes

Janet Baraclough wrote:
[...]
The article you quote, says

"The villagers quickly pointed the finger at a neighbouring farm whose
tenants were growing genetically modified soya, ENGINEERED TO BE
RESISTANT TO GLYPHOSATE. A month later, agronomists from the nearby
National University of Formosa visited the scene and confirmed the
villagers' suspicions. The researchers concluded that the neighbouring
farmers, like thousands of others growing GM soya in Argentina, had been
forced to take drastic action AGAINST RESISTANT WEEDS and had carelessly
drenched the land - and nearby Colonia Loma Senes - with A MIXTURE OF
powerful herbicides "

The implication in the above is that the weeds had become resistant
TO GLYPHOSATE, and therefore the farmers used something DIFFERENT , "a
mixture of powerful herbicides". IOW not glyphosate.

Interesting, though. I thought one of the claims for glyphosate was
that non-GM plants would not develop resistant strains. (Though I
believe there was some evidence of acquired resistance somewhere.)

Some plants are naturally resistant. In Canada Malva pusilla has become
a serious pest in fields planted with RoundUp resistant crops, and there
is concern about Malva parviflora in Australia. Epilobium is another
genus with resistant species.

In other plants resistance can be a result of selection, or of
hybridisation with the resistant crop. I don't think the RoundUp
resistant cotton or maize are likely to be problems in themselves, but
RoundUp resistant Brassicas don't strike me as a particularly good idea.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

michael adams wrote:
"La Puce" wrote
[ill effects from herbicides]
Surely the lesson to be learned there, is if you're going to
use glyphosphate as a spot weedkiller in the garden, more especilly
in a suburban garden, don't try and and apply it using a crop
spraying aeroplane. More especially in windy conditions.

Which seems sensible enough advice to me.

I should think so.. I have a fairly large area including J. Knotweed
and G. Elder to deal with, so I will be using a backpack, hopefully
on a cool-ish day with no wind!

Chris Bacon wrote:
Now you are being silly. Quote me, from the article, where it says "had
carelessly drenched ... with glyphosphate. You can't, so I expect I
won't hear anything more about it.

It said a mixture of powerful herbicides (quote below). Now I'm trying
to find out the exact components of the mix and I bet you a pint or
three that it had glyphosate in it. On?!

"The villagers quickly pointed the finger at a neighbouring farm whose
tenants were growing genetically modified soya, engineered to be
resistant to the herbicide glyphosate. A month later, agronomists from
the nearby National University of Formosa visited the scene and
confirmed the villagers' suspicions. The researchers concluded that the
neighbouring farmers, like thousands of others growing GM soya in
Argentina, had been forced to take drastic action against resistant
weeds and had carelessly drenched the land - and nearby Colonia Loma
Senes - with a mixture of powerful herbicides."

Rupert (W.Yorkshire) wrote:
A fair bit of bad chemistry there La Puce!
You are quoting and misquoting from very dodgy provenances.

) I must say I understand that Chris had had this conversation in the
past, with Paula, and it is interesting to see that there is still a
reluctance to completely stop using chemicals. From where I stand, I
cannot understand that we are feeding ourselves with food that is being
carried from far away on airplanes, exploiting poor communities,
destroying their communities in the process and their lives by using
chemicals, throwing away surplus food when millions of people starve
etc. when it is more and more obvious that we don't benefit at all from
this. I'm perhaps naive with chemistry, sure, but I know what's good
for us and what is not. And by doing our bit we can make changes.

wrote:

(snip very sensible post to which I agree entirely)

Broadleaf specific lawn weedkillers are much nastier than glyphosate
but are just about acceptable for spot weeding. I cringe everytime I
see that blasted animated frog/hedgehog/ladybird dance around on the
chemically greened lawn advert.

It is indeed the mix of chemicals that worries me. What **** me off is
that it is sold under bio degredable product as being the 'only'
component in the mix when it is in fact one of many other ingredients.
It is perhaps true in the long run that it will desapear in the soil
after 90 days, but the destruction of gardens habitat in the process is
not told to the amateur gardeners. The farmers know, but not the
amateur gardeners. This is why I feel a total ban on these products is
the solution.

We are getting almost as bad as the Merkins - a land where "TruGreen
ChemLawn" is a product franchise brandname and a *selling* point. I kid
you not.

LOL! Organic this and that sell - off course. But wouldn't you be more
happy to see your society getting rich doing the right thing than
getting rich destroying us all?

Don't buy these products. Full stop.

If you must use a chemical weedkiller then glyphosate is about as safe
as you can reasonbly get. All I would ask is that you buy generic and
not the Monsanto product.

That is something which needs to be told and loudly too. But how?

Almost everything else is more dangerous. Even grubbing the weeds out
manually by hand risks catching tetanus from the soil. And burning them
OrganicallyTM) will produce dangerous dioxins (shock! horror!). There
is no free lunch.

Yes absolutely (I got poisoned 2 weeks ago and was severely sick -
didn't wash my hands and ate lunch on my friends plot ... Stupid I
know). I'm interested in box schemes, local farmers markets etc. and
more and more organic wholesalers are opening selling local products at
affordable prices. I am interested in large scale organic farming and
hope that one day each cities will be fed from local farming industries
working organically which in turn will stop the large import
food/flowers industries from abroad.

Chris Bacon wrote:
Now you are being silly. Quote me, from the article, where it says "had
carelessly drenched ... with glyphosphate. You can't, so I expect I
won't hear anything more about it.

FOUND IT !!!

"If Argentina's soya revolution brought local economic benefits,
perhaps there would be less hostility. But the genius of Monsanto's
Roundup Ready soya is that it allows the crop to be farmed intensively
with minimal labour. Only one worker is needed for every 400 hectares
compared to more than 70 on a traditional citrus farm. By inserting a
special gene into the plant's DNA, Monsanto's scientists discovered
they could make it immune to a very powerful herbicide called
glyphosate. Farmers can then spray this over their crops once or twice
a year and everything but the soya is exterminated leaving the soya to
grow vigorously with highly profitable yields and little maintenance.
So more than 300,000 farmworkers have lost their jobs. Most head
towards the big cities like Buenos Aires or Salta to find work, but
with few skills they end up unemployed and homeless."

Full news below ...

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodm...342291,00.html

Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
That doesn't prove your case.

My case?! Blimey!

The previous material you quoted wasn't
specific, but the implication was that the proximate problem was the use
of non-Glyphosate herbicides in response the proliferation of Glyphosate
resistant weeds in response to the overuse of Glyphosate.

You've just proved that the overuse of glyphosate in the first place as
produced the contamination and the desperate attempts to overcome this
problem now. Whole villages are moving into the cities because they are
now ruin and have no work.

If this is my case I'm resting it now.

Janet Baraclough wrote:
LOL. Your posting history says you "need to" drive a large 4 by 4
around town, and use your own doubledecker Routemaster bus for work and
weekend trips.

Hello Janet. Long time ... I don't have a 4x4 but run a doblo on
biodiesel actually. Yes we did have a very old frontera bought from an
electrician in Leeds in 1996 and I missed it very much, still does, it
was I think the comfy seats and the height, but the doblo is near
enough the space we need for the kids, dogs, staff, equipment we carry
everyday.

Our Routemaster was indeed not very good - I agree entirely - but it
also runs on biodiesel. It carries up to 40 people, has exhibition
space, is a fantastic marketing tool and is absolutely great for going
camping and going on picnics with friends and kids. The only
inconvenient is that I can smell chips fat everywhere I go.

How's Aran?! I was in Edinburgh last week during the amazing glorious
sunny days we had. Couldn't have been in a more beautiful town really.
I'm really wondering if that rain will ever stop ...