I have a fairly large area of my garden that is uncultivated poor grass.
I would like to make it into a wild meadow, however it seems to me that
after a few weeks it is growing a lovely crop of gorse, which I do not
want. what action should or can I take to make a decent wild meadow?
any help would be appreciated. I cannot afford to spend a fortune on
wild flower seed, surely nature should be able to cope? Al;so, at the
moment it is fenced off with rabbit proof fencing, which if necessary I
would be quite happy to remove, should I?
--
Residing on low ground in North Staffordshire

"Moonraker" wrote in message
...
I have a fairly large area of my garden that is uncultivated poor grass. I
would like to make it into a wild meadow, however it seems to me that after
a few weeks it is growing a lovely crop of gorse, which I do not want. what
action should or can I take to make a decent wild meadow? any help would
be appreciated. I cannot afford to spend a fortune on wild flower seed,
surely nature should be able to cope? Al;so, at the moment it is fenced off
with rabbit proof fencing, which if necessary I would be quite happy to
remove, should I?
--
Residing on low ground in North Staffordshire

If you missed Countryfile on BBC this afternoon try and find a repeat
because there was a good item about wild flower meadows.

I am quite sure you would need to scalp the ground and sow wild flower seed.
If you just leave it (mowing occasionally) it would revert to wild flower
meadow eventually but it could take many years.
HTH
R.

Scalping the ground is a way of removing the top layer of fertile soil and providing low fertility conditions where the grass is less able to out-compete the other plants. If the soil is already unfertile enough, there is no need. Equally, there's no need to sow wild flower seed if there's enough of a seed bank in the soil - which there may well be if gorse is growing.

Wild meadows aren't in fact wild - they are the result of grazing and mowing which keeps down competition from scrub.

Meadows are grown for hay - animals graze the first spring crops of grass, then the grass is left to grow all summer, mown, and the mowings taken away. You can imitate this pattern with a lawn mower. Mowing will keep down the gorse, and the flowers you would be looking at are summer flowering ones which seed by August so they have dropped their seed by the time you do the autumn mowing. Quite which ones depends on your soil type.

If you want spring flowers instead, then run it as pasture - allow "grazing" from end May onwards.

You can further reduce fertility by sowing yellow rattle seeds - yellow rattle is parasitic on grass.

I'd be inclined to keep the rabbit proof fencing - that way *you* can decide when you want to "graze".

On 22 Aug, 22:57, kay wrote:
Ragnar;898166 Wrote:



If you missed Countryfile on BBC this afternoon try and find a repeat
because there was a good item about wild flower meadows.

I am quite sure you would need to scalp the ground and sow wild flower
seed.
If you just leave it (mowing occasionally) it would revert to wild
flower
meadow eventually but it could take many years.
HTH
R.

Scalping the ground is a way of removing the top layer of fertile soil
and providing low fertility conditions where the grass is less able to
out-compete the other plants. If the soil is already unfertile enough,
there is no need. Equally, there's no need to sow wild flower seed if
there's enough of a seed bank in the soil - which there may well be if
gorse is growing.

Wild meadows aren't in fact wild - they are the result of grazing and
mowing which keeps down competition from scrub.

Meadows are grown for hay - animals graze the first spring crops of
grass, then the grass is left to grow all summer, mown, and the mowings
taken away. You can imitate this pattern with a lawn mower. Mowing will
keep down the gorse, and the flowers you would be looking at are summer
flowering ones which seed by August so they have dropped their seed by
the time you do the autumn mowing. Quite which ones depends on your soil
type.

If you want spring flowers instead, then run it as pasture - allow
"grazing" from end May onwards.

You can further reduce fertility by sowing yellow rattle seeds - yellow
rattle is parasitic on grass.

I'd be inclined to keep the rabbit proof fencing - that way *you* can
decide when you want to "graze".

--
kay
What you see on the TV is not a wildflower mew.
The above is true. If you mow your grass, you must take the cuttings
(and thus the nutrients away). This needs to be done once a year after
flower seeds have fallen. The grass wil be weakened by this
treatment.
You will get "wild fowers" OK but probably the weeds growing in your
garden, ie loads of thistles, nettles, buttercups, dandelions, sorrel,
clover etc. Very few of the "pretty" flowers.

These "Wild flower meadows" you see on the TV are complete Bull S***.
They are no more wild than your vegetable plot.
The flowers aren't wild either being from imported seed. Most of the
seed you buy is from E. Europe and is actually damaging to our
environment.
If they were to be benificial to the environment, there would be no
planting of non-local seeds/plants.

So, either you damage our environment or you just get a weedy patch
that's benificial but not like th crap you see on the TV

On 22 Aug, 19:36, Moonraker wrote:
I have a fairly large area of my garden that is uncultivated poor grass.
I would like to make it into a wild meadow, however it seems to me that
after a few weeks it is growing a lovely crop of gorse, which I do not
want. what action should or can I take *to make a decent wild meadow?
any help would be appreciated. I cannot afford to spend a fortune on
wild flower seed, surely nature should be able to cope? Al;so, at the
moment it is fenced off with rabbit proof fencing, which if necessary I
would be quite happy to remove, should I?
--
Residing on low ground in North Staffordshire

BTW. Wild flowers= weeds=stuff you do not want. That's why it's
wild.
You can't have it both ways.

On 22 Aug, 19:36, Moonraker wrote:
I have a fairly large area of my garden that is uncultivated poor grass.
I would like to make it into a wild meadow, however it seems to me that
after a few weeks it is growing a lovely crop of gorse, which I do not
want. what action should or can I take *to make a decent wild meadow?
any help would be appreciated. I cannot afford to spend a fortune on
wild flower seed, surely nature should be able to cope? Al;so, at the
moment it is fenced off with rabbit proof fencing, which if necessary I
would be quite happy to remove, should I?
--
Residing on low ground in North Staffordshire

What you see on the TV is not a wildflower meadow. (See below.)
You must mow your grass and take the grass cuttings
(and thus the nutrients) away. This needs to be done once a year
after
flower seeds have fallen. The grass wil be weakened by this
treatment. You can't do this with a domestic mower, the grass will be
too tall and tussocky. The alternative is to have it grazed.
You will get "wild fowers" OK but probably the weeds growing in your
garden, ie loads of thistles, nettles, buttercups, dandelions, docks,
sorrel,
clover etc. Very few of the "pretty" flowers.
If you want to know what will grow, have a walk on your patch and
look at the weeds there. You will just get lots more of the same.
Makes sense don't it?

These "Wild flower meadows" you see on the TV are complete Bull S***.
They are no more wild than your vegetable plot.
The flowers aren't wild either being from imported seed. Most of the
seed you buy is from E. Europe and is actually damaging to our
environment.

If they were to be benificial to the environment, there would be no
planting of non-local seeds/plants. People in the UK are too idle to
collect our wild flower seeds, a very tedious job. You could collect
your own locally.


So, either you damage our environment or you just get a weedy patch
that's benificial but not like the crap you see on the TV.

You need to realise that 90% of TV gardening is complete BS.
If you need advice, speak to a local person that's doing what you want
and is manifestly successful at it.

If they're planting seeds, they are failures.

On 22 Aug, 22:57, kay wrote:
Ragnar;898166 Wrote:



If you missed Countryfile on BBC this afternoon try and find a repeat
because there was a good item about wild flower meadows.

I am quite sure you would need to scalp the ground and sow wild flower
seed.
If you just leave it (mowing occasionally) it would revert to wild
flower
meadow eventually but it could take many years.
HTH
R.

Scalping the ground is a way of removing the top layer of fertile soil
and providing low fertility conditions where the grass is less able to
out-compete the other plants. If the soil is already unfertile enough,
there is no need. Equally, there's no need to sow wild flower seed if
there's enough of a seed bank in the soil - which there may well be if
gorse is growing.

Wild meadows aren't in fact wild - they are the result of grazing and
mowing which keeps down competition from scrub.

Meadows are grown for hay - animals graze the first spring crops of
grass, then the grass is left to grow all summer, mown, and the mowings
taken away. You can imitate this pattern with a lawn mower. Mowing will
keep down the gorse, and the flowers you would be looking at are summer
flowering ones which seed by August so they have dropped their seed by
the time you do the autumn mowing. Quite which ones depends on your soil
type.

If you want spring flowers instead, then run it as pasture - allow
"grazing" from end May onwards.

You can further reduce fertility by sowing yellow rattle seeds - yellow
rattle is parasitic on grass.

I'd be inclined to keep the rabbit proof fencing - that way *you* can
decide when you want to "graze".

--
kay

Animals don't graze hay meadows. There would be no hay.

On 22 Aug, 19:36, Moonraker wrote:
I have a fairly large area of my garden that is uncultivated poor grass.
I would like to make it into a wild meadow, however it seems to me that
after a few weeks it is growing a lovely crop of gorse, which I do not
want. what action should or can I take *to make a decent wild meadow?
any help would be appreciated. I cannot afford to spend a fortune on
wild flower seed, surely nature should be able to cope? Al;so, at the
moment it is fenced off with rabbit proof fencing, which if necessary I
would be quite happy to remove, should I?
--
Residing on low ground in North Staffordshire

What you see on the TV is not a wildflower meadow. (See below.)

You must mow your grass and take the grass cuttings
(and thus the nutrients) away. This needs to be done once a year
after flower seeds have fallen. The grass wil be weakened by this
treatment. You can't do this with a domestic mower, the grass will be
too tall and tussocky.
The alternative is not to have it grazed. Animals crap, putting the
nutrients back into the ground which defeats the object.
You will get "wild fowers" OK but probably the weeds growing in your
garden, ie loads of thistles, nettles, buttercups, dandelions, docks,
sorrel, clover etc. Very few of the "pretty" flowers.
If you want to know what will grow/appear, have a walk on your patch
and
look at the weeds there. You will just get lots more of the same.
Makes sense don't it?

These "Wild flower meadows" you see on the TV are complete Bull S***.
They are no more wild than your vegetable plot.
The flowers aren't wild either being from imported seed. Most of the
seed you buy is from E. Europe and is actually damaging to our
environment.


If they were to be benificial to the environment, there would be no
planting of non-local seeds/plants. People in the UK are too idle to
collect our wild flower seeds, a very tedious job. You could collect
your own locally.


So, either you damage our environment or you just get a weedy patch
that's benificial but not like the crap you see on the TV.


You need to realise that 90% of TV gardening is complete BS.
If you need advice, speak to a local person that's doing what you
want
and is manifestly successful at it.


If they're planting seeds in a "Wild Flower Meadow", they are
failures.

Read very carefully what I said. Do you really believe that if you stop mowing after the first spring growth, ie some time in May, that the grass will stop growing?

It may not be current practice, but neither is growing hay in low nutrient conditions with a good proportion of wild flowers.

That's true if you've started with a field. If you've started with something approaching a lawn, you can do a first rough cut with shears or strimmer, then another cut with rotary mower.

Some of those are a result of higher nutrient levels,, hence the need to keep carting away mowings. Thistles, docks are best dug out. As to clover, sorrel not being pretty, well, 'prettiness' is a very personal thing. What you actually get depends on the conditions you maintain, and as you change those conditions, then what succeeds i growing there will change. Not a quick process though! Think 5-10 years.

That's why people take a short cut and strip the turf and sow from scratch.

You can introduce things as plug plants, clear a patch about a metre across to give them a start. Not expensive from seed,, especially if you can collect seed. What you plant depends on where you are - not just species, but if you are in the countryside it's best to get local seed, in the middle of the town it doesn't really matter


Why do you say that? Are you referring to the possibility of cross pollination with local plants of the same species, perhaps introducing traits which aren't helpful to survival in this country? Or that insects living on UK strains of a species won't be able to live on E Europe strains? Or are you worrying about the effect on wild populations in E Europe?

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:32:27 +0200, harry wrote:


You must mow your grass and take the grass cuttings
(and thus the nutrients) away. This needs to be done once a year
after flower seeds have fallen. The grass wil be weakened by this
treatment. You can't do this with a domestic mower, the grass will be
too tall and tussocky.
The alternative is not to have it grazed. Animals crap, putting the
nutrients back into the ground which defeats the object.
You will get "wild fowers" OK but probably the weeds growing in your
garden, ie loads of thistles, nettles, buttercups, dandelions, docks,
sorrel, clover etc. Very few of the "pretty" flowers.
If you want to know what will grow/appear, have a walk on your patch
and
look at the weeds there. You will just get lots more of the same.
Makes sense don't it?

These "Wild flower meadows" you see on the TV are complete Bull S***.
They are no more wild than your vegetable plot.
The flowers aren't wild either being from imported seed. Most of the
seed you buy is from E. Europe and is actually damaging to our
environment.


If they were to be benificial to the environment, there would be no
planting of non-local seeds/plants. People in the UK are too idle to
collect our wild flower seeds, a very tedious job. You could collect
your own locally.


So, either you damage our environment or you just get a weedy patch
that's benificial but not like the crap you see on the TV.


You need to realise that 90% of TV gardening is complete BS.
If you need advice, speak to a local person that's doing what you
want
and is manifestly successful at it.


If they're planting seeds in a "Wild Flower Meadow", they are
failures.


Whilst I agree with some of the above, I suggest that a positive approach
can yield worthwhile results. There are reputable suppliers of wildflower
seeds in the UK (I use Naturescape who grow most of their own products and
obtain some of the species from Wales and Scotland but do not import
any). Good seed is quite expensive but a little goes a long way (I allow
around 4 grams per square metre). To achieve success you do need to
select the seed mix that will perform well in the area you have chosen -
for example it is no good sowing meadow plant seed in area that is
predominately in the shade. One of our wildflower patches is permanently
in the shade of a stand of oaks so we went for woodland plants which has
worked well. Another patch is much more open and meadow type plants such
as corn marigolds, ox-eye daisy, cornflower and field poppy grow happily
alongside the perennials. Some of our experiments have not been a success
- vipers bugloss and kidney vetch have been a disappointment (too wet) but
others such as the very successful transplanting of common spotted and
pyramidal orchids from our lawns to the wildflower patches have been a
bonus.

It can be a lot of hard work preparing wildflower areas. Initially we
sprayed the grass off, decided that this was not going to be good enough
and then scalped the area which was backbreaking work - I have now
discovered that there are simple turf lifting machines that can be hired
which I will bear in mind for the future. Our areas don't need a lot of
maintenance, cutting back the annuals at this time of year, removing any
plants that have turned out to be thugs and threaten to take over, sowing
seed for next year's growth. 'How to make a wildlife garden' by Chris
Baines is a worthwhile read if you are serious about gardening with
wildlife in mind and there are several useful free down-loadable
information notes on the NE website at
http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/adv.../booklets.aspx

--
rbel

On 23 Aug, 12:06, rbel wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:32:27 +0200, harry wrote:
You must mow your grass and take the grass cuttings
(and thus the nutrients) away. This needs to be done once a year
after flower seeds have fallen. The grass wil be weakened by this
treatment. You can't do this with a domestic mower, the grass will be
too tall and tussocky.
The alternative is not to have it grazed. Animals crap, putting the
nutrients back into the ground which defeats the object.
You will get "wild fowers" OK but probably the weeds growing in your
garden, ie loads of thistles, nettles, buttercups, dandelions, docks,
sorrel, clover etc. *Very few of the "pretty" flowers.
If you want to know *what will grow/appear, have a walk on your patch
and
look at the weeds there. *You will just get lots more of the same.
Makes sense don't it?

These "Wild flower meadows" you see on the TV are complete Bull S***.
They are no more wild than your vegetable plot.
The flowers aren't wild either being from imported seed. Most of the
seed you buy is from E. Europe and is actually damaging to our
environment.

If they were to be *benificial to the environment, there would be no
planting of non-local seeds/plants. People in the UK are too idle to
collect our wild flower seeds, a very tedious job. *You could collect
your own locally.

So, either you damage our environment or you just get a weedy patch
that's benificial but not like the crap you see on the TV.

You need to realise that 90% of TV gardening is complete BS.
If you need advice, speak to a local person that's doing what you
want
and is manifestly successful at it.

If they're planting seeds in a "Wild Flower Meadow", they are
failures.

Whilst I agree with some of the above, I suggest that a positive approach *
can yield worthwhile results. *There are reputable suppliers of wildflower *
seeds in the UK (I use Naturescape who grow most of their own products and *
obtain some of the species from Wales and Scotland but do not import *
any). *Good seed is quite expensive but a little goes a long way (I allow *
around 4 grams per square metre). *To achieve success you do need to *
select the seed mix that will perform well in the area you have chosen - *
for example it is no good sowing meadow plant seed in area that is *
predominately in the shade. *One of our wildflower patches is permanently *
in the shade of a stand of oaks so we went for woodland plants which has *
worked well. *Another patch is much more open and meadow type plants such *
as corn marigolds, ox-eye daisy, cornflower and field poppy grow happily *
alongside the perennials. *Some of our experiments have not been a success *
- vipers bugloss and kidney vetch have been a disappointment (too wet) but *
others such as the very successful transplanting of common spotted and *
pyramidal orchids from our lawns to the wildflower patches have been a *
bonus.

It can be a lot of hard work preparing wildflower areas. *Initially we *
sprayed the grass off, decided that this was not going to be good enough *
and then scalped the area which was backbreaking work - I have now *
discovered that there are simple turf lifting machines that can be hired *
which I will bear in mind for the future. Our areas don't need a lot of *
maintenance, cutting back the annuals at this time of year, removing any *
plants that have turned out to be thugs and threaten to take over, sowing *
seed for next year's growth. *'How to make a wildlife garden' by Chris *
Baines is a worthwhile read if you are serious about gardening with *
wildlife in mind and there are several useful free down-loadable *
information notes on the NE website at *http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/adv.../booklets.aspx

--
rbel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Real "wild flower meadows" take hundreds of years to create. Anything
you "re-create" will be something else. Unfortunately, once it's gone
it's gone.

On 23/08/2010 14:08, harry wrote:
Snip
Real "wild flower meadows" take hundreds of years to create. Anything
you "re-create" will be something else. Unfortunately, once it's gone
it's gone.

Many thanks for the replies, I cannot now do I wish to spend a lot of
money on seed. I think I will just leave it be to get on with itself. If
the gorse becomes rampant, and I suspect it will I will have a
re-think.I will however mow around the edges of my properties to keep my
neighbours under control!
--
Residing on low ground in North Staffordshire