In article ,
David Rance wrote:
On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 Sacha wrote:

And we're pretty sure the 2CV changed number plates halfway through!

There are two 2CVs. He uses one when in the north of France and the
other in the south. I suppose that emphasises just how large a country
it is and that it would take too long to actually drive from the north
to the south! They didn't explain that but then why should they?

pedantry

France is much larger than Britain in area, but the distance between
extreme points in the contiguous homeland is comparable. If you
were having a series on the UK, driving from Cornwall to Caithness
in a CV-like object would be insane. Which doesn't deny your point.

/pedantry


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 Nick Maclaren wrote:

There are two 2CVs. He uses one when in the north of France and the
other in the south. I suppose that emphasises just how large a country
it is and that it would take too long to actually drive from the north
to the south! They didn't explain that but then why should they?

pedantry

France is much larger than Britain in area, but the distance between
extreme points in the contiguous homeland is comparable. If you
were having a series on the UK, driving from Cornwall to Caithness
in a CV-like object would be insane. Which doesn't deny your point.

/pedantry

Pedantry noted! ;-)

Actually I thought of that when writing. I could have given that as a
comparison, I suppose.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 Martin wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 11:34:34 +0000, David Rance
wrote:

Judging by all the unjustified criticisms I don't think that any of you
really paid full attention to the programme.

We aren't Monty groupies.

Neither am I. A groupie is someone who believes what their idol does is
always right and can do no wrong no matter what. You don't have to be a
groupie to draw attention to criticisms of the program that were plainly
wrong.

I didn't like the way Monty presented Gardeners' World but I don't
prejudge people before I can see what else they can do.

In the past I have found Michael Portillo to be a rather irritating
presenter but I do like his series on railway journeys.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 11:34:34 +0000, David Rance wrote:

On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 Emery Davis wrote:

On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 09:43:34 +0000, David Rance wrote:

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 Martin wrote:

I never anything so daft as Monty in a straw hat driving a 2CV between
French gardens on TV this evening.

I've just watched that programme again and I'm going to disagree with
you.

Lord his French was awful.

No, It wasn't that bad. Don't criticise him for not getting everything
completely right.


It was disgraceful. I don't criticise him for trying -- which most
French really appreciate -- but when he's going to repeat words over and
over, imparting his wisdom, at least he could take the time to get it
right.

What I criticise him for is seemingly not understanding half of what was
said to him, but pretending he did...

He was actually quite insulting to several of
the characters. Especially the nice lady with the allotment who was
doing her best to be a really good sport.

That's not true. He wasn't insulting at all. What made you think that?


.... and that's why he was insulting. He didn't know how to respond, and
so he "talked past" people, with no connection. Culturally, he dissed
her. I'll bet that woman went home and said quel culduc.

Not to mention the onion farmer, where Monty insisted they were
the "best" even when the guy said "the sweetest."

No, Monty started off by saying that he understood they were the best
onions. The guy then corrected him by saying they were the sweetest.


I seem to remember him grunting in response with no apparent
understanding, but I certainly didn't record it!

And all the BS about (mispronounced) paysans, honestly.

He pronounced it in two different ways. One was when he was using it as
an English word in an English sentence. The other, which was a correct
pronunciation, was when he was explaining what the French word implied.


He explained the mythic, dictionary definition of the word. In modern
French "paysan" means farmer, no more or less. Yes there can be a
connotation of deeper culture, but someone who says "je suis paysan" is
_not_ saying "I'm a peasant", he's saying "I'm a farmer." "Peasant" in
the English sense is probably better translated as "plouc."


We certainly enjoyed the scenery, summer in the south and all that.

I wonder that you didn't criticise the southern accents! "Bieng" for
"bien" and "jardaing" for "jardin!. ;-)


Well, I'm told I sound like a Swiss when I speak French, so I certainly
can't fault any regional accents! It's a nice compliment anyway, 10
years ago I sounded like a Belgian!!

Judging by all the unjustified criticisms I don't think that any of you
really paid full attention to the programme.


We watched it, which is probably all they care about. But I won't watch
it again. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and hope you continue to do so. But
for me, too many issues, and Monty came off as an a*se.




--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 2/10/2013 7:50 AM, David Rance wrote:

In the past I have found Michael Portillo to be a rather irritating
presenter but I do like his series on railway journeys.

I used to seriously dislike Portillo, but the railway series has changed
my opinion of him.

"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
On 2/10/2013 7:50 AM, David Rance wrote:

In the past I have found Michael Portillo to be a rather irritating
presenter but I do like his series on railway journeys.

I used to seriously dislike Portillo, but the railway series has changed
my opinion of him.


Don't know what his stage presentation is but he is at Shanklin Theatre in
December

http://www.shanklintheatre.com/events/an_audience_with_michael_portillo/details.aspxMike.................................. .I'm an Angel, honest ! The horns are there just to keep the halo straight....................................

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 Emery Davis wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 11:34:34 +0000, David Rance wrote:

On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 Emery Davis wrote:

On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 09:43:34 +0000, David Rance wrote:

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 Martin wrote:

I never anything so daft as Monty in a straw hat driving a 2CV between
French gardens on TV this evening.

I've just watched that programme again and I'm going to disagree with
you.

Lord his French was awful.

No, It wasn't that bad. Don't criticise him for not getting everything
completely right.


It was disgraceful. I don't criticise him for trying -- which most
French really appreciate -- but when he's going to repeat words over and
over, imparting his wisdom, at least he could take the time to get it
right.

What I criticise him for is seemingly not understanding half of what was
said to him, but pretending he did...

He was actually quite insulting to several of
the characters. Especially the nice lady with the allotment who was
doing her best to be a really good sport.

That's not true. He wasn't insulting at all. What made you think that?

... and that's why he was insulting. He didn't know how to respond, and
so he "talked past" people, with no connection. Culturally, he dissed
her. I'll bet that woman went home and said quel culduc.

Sorry, that just doesn't describe the conversation I heard. Culduc? That
doesn't appear to have made it into Larousse (and that has all the three
star naughty words). "Cul" I know to be rude but "culduc"? Perhaps it's
in "Le parler normand" but my copy is in Normandy.

Not to mention the onion farmer, where Monty insisted they were
the "best" even when the guy said "the sweetest."

No, Monty started off by saying that he understood they were the best
onions. The guy then corrected him by saying they were the sweetest.

I seem to remember him grunting in response with no apparent
understanding, but I certainly didn't record it!

You can "catch up with it on the iplayer" (as they say!). Er, sorry no,
as you're in France I don't think you can. Pity! Monty's response was
actually to repeat the word "doux" in acceptance of the correction.

And all the BS about (mispronounced) paysans, honestly.

He pronounced it in two different ways. One was when he was using it as
an English word in an English sentence. The other, which was a correct
pronunciation, was when he was explaining what the French word implied.

He explained the mythic, dictionary definition of the word. In modern
French "paysan" means farmer, no more or less. Yes there can be a
connotation of deeper culture, but someone who says "je suis paysan" is
_not_ saying "I'm a peasant", he's saying "I'm a farmer." "Peasant" in
the English sense is probably better translated as "plouc."

There is no strict equivalent in English to "paysan". It is not the same
as the English farmer with his vast acres, nor is it a peasant. The
nearest we have is "small farmer" or "small-holder". We have one such
three doors up the road from us at Le Mesnil Villement with about twenty
head of cattle. In fact our own house belonged to such a person. And our
neighbour who drove his 2CV in a straw hat and bleu de travail was also
a "paysan". (Actually he had to get rid of his 2CV and get a Renault 4L
because he couldn't get a sheep into the 2CV!) He acted as the local
slaughterer of sheep.

When my wife and I were teaching we were asked to find an exchange
family for a Muslim brother and sister and we found some people down in
the village. The family wanted to give them and a few neighbours a kind
of méchoui and Jules was called in to slaughter the sheep. Because the
youngsters were Muslim it had to be done according to Muslim rules which
also included saying a prayer as it was being killed. Fortunately, the
way Jules did the killing was in accordance with halal and the boy was
old enough to say the prayer.

I just can't see that being done in a modern English village.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK
http://rance.org.uk

In article ,
lid says...

Judging by all the unjustified criticisms I don't think that any of you
really paid full attention to the programme.


Hardly surprising. Martin's posts have never yet suggested he has any
interest in gardens or gardening.

Janet

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:01:46 +0000, David Rance wrote:

Sorry, that just doesn't describe the conversation I heard. Culduc? That
doesn't appear to have made it into Larousse (and that has all the three
star naughty words). "Cul" I know to be rude but "culduc"? Perhaps it's
in "Le parler normand" but my copy is in Normandy.

Yes, check the books! It's verlan AFAIK, so in fact the lady in
question probably would have uttered (with all due respect to her) trou-
du-cul, from which it derives. (Apologies for the profanity.) It's common
enough banlieue-speak, though I've never seen it written down.

[]


There is no strict equivalent in English to "paysan". It is not the same
as the English farmer with his vast acres, nor is it a peasant. The
nearest we have is "small farmer" or "small-holder". We have one such t

While I agree there is a more nuanced meaning, paysan mostly means
farmer, it least in common usage. Even Petit Robert begins with: "Homme,
femme, vivant a la campagne et s'occupant des travaux des champs.
Agriculteur, cultivateur, fermier." Grain barons who farm hundreds of
hectares are as much referred to as paysans as small holders. No offense
intended, but are you a fluent French speaker?

Anyway, enough drift. Enjoy next weeks show!

--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 Emery Davis wrote:

No offense intended, but are you a fluent French speaker?

No offence (sic) taken but that was patronising! It is not for me to say
whether or not I am fluent in French as I never make claims for myself,
modesty forbids, but I can speak for my wife who is completely
bi-lingual in French and English. My French is not quite as good as
hers, and that is as much as I will say!

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

On 9 Feb 2013 19:42:55 GMT, Emery Davis wrote:

On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 09:43:34 +0000, David Rance wrote:

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 Martin wrote:

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 20:45:47 +0000, The Original Jake
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 00:07:21 +0100, Martin wrote:


One of the joys of Beechgrove was that it didn't need a front man.

On his web site, Chris says he'll be traveling around Scotland. I hope
this means he won't be a "front man" but will fit in with the team.

And talking about adverts, I do wonder how many people are aware of the
little hidden gem on BBC2 on Sunday mornings - the A-Z of TV gardening.

I wasn't.
I never anything so daft as Monty in a straw hat driving a 2CV between
French gardens on TV this evening.

Actually I enjoyed the programme very much. What on earth was daft about
it?

Lord his French was awful. He was actually quite insulting to several of
the characters. Especially the nice lady with the allotment who was
doing her best to be a really good sport. Not to mention the onion
farmer, where Monty insisted they were the "best" even when the guy said
"the sweetest." I love to cook with Cevennes onions but they don't
exactly replace the classic yellow.

And the end: this guy's hotel and "first garden" is the most beautiful
kitchen garden in France? That's just silly, and we thought it reeked of
sponsorship or kickback.

And all the BS about (mispronounced) paysans, honestly.

We certainly enjoyed the scenery, summer in the south and all that. Good
stuff when you're stuck here in the mud! But that straw hat...

At least he tried to speak their language and not use a translator.
He did better than many English would have done with only school
French (all those years ago!) to depend on!


Pam in Bristol

BBC loves making programmes where a large part of the
programme is filmed in a car. This really irritates me, especially in
gardening programmes

Time to film Top Gear in the garden then

On 11/02/2013 09:22, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 09:12:22 +0000, stuart noble
wrote:

BBC loves making programmes where a large part of the
programme is filmed in a car. This really irritates me, especially in
gardening programmes

Time to film Top Gear in the garden then

:-)

Would that increase the number of people who watch TG. The BBC claim
TG has an world wide audience of 350 million.

They would have one more if it wasn't for the oaf. I stopped watching
anything with him in it after his "joke" on the One Show.

Why are 2CVs are still on the road when production was stopped because
the car couldn't comply with safety rules in most countries?

Grandfather rights. They don't comply with regulations for new cars
but you can still run around in an old one.
--
Phil Cook

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 Martin wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 18:57:19 +0000, Pam Moore
wrote:

At least he tried to speak their language and not use a translator.
He did better than many English would have done with only school
French (all those years ago!) to depend on!

If he has regularly spent periods in France since he left school, when
he was at school is irrelevant.

Agreed. Monty said at the beginning of each programme (and I suspect
this is going to be the intro for all the programmes in the series)
that, when he was nineteen, he spent six months in Aix. Thus I wonder
why he didn't pick up the Provençal accent. (He also explained at the
same time why he was driving a 2CV which seems to have escaped
everyone's notice!)

All those years ago school French was taught better than now.

Don't agree.

The only thing wrong with the teaching was an
emphasis on grammar and on translating from French to English with
little emphasis on translating from English to French and zero
emphasis on being able to communicate in French.

That was four things - but you're absolutely right (and is what I said
in an earlier message). I don't agree with your blanket assertion that
French was taught better in the old days because it varied greatly from
school to school and from teacher to teacher.

The French were
taught English in a similar manner. Sometime in the 1970s the French
sorted out English teaching, most educated French can communicate in
English and write English well nowadays.

Well, I would strongly disagree with that, having been in French schools
on exchange visits and observed English lessons in the '80s and '90s.
From what I saw it wasn't much better than the way I was taught French
in England in the '50s. And music was even worse (that being my
subject). The music lessons were so bad that I was not allowed to
observe any classes because the teachers could not keep order. And from
what I heard through an open window, music lessons simply consisted of
learning to play tunes on a descant recorder. My last visit was to a
French private school where I *was* allowed into the classroom but it
was just the same except that the discipline was better. The pupils were
not primary school children but 14 - 15 year olds! No wonder they were
bored and played the teachers up!

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

In article ,
David Rance wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 Martin wrote:

All those years ago school French was taught better than now.

Don't agree.

If it had been, I would never have passed my O-level (which I
did very comfortably). 25-30 years ago I decided to brush up my
French by listening to a cassette while commuting, and found out
why I have so much trouble understanding it (despite being able
to read it, sort-of). I literally cannot hear it. I can't hear
the word breaks, distinguish most of the vowels and, when spoken
by a Frenchwoman, some vowels come across as silence.

On this matter, I would like to recover my old ability and enhance
it enough to read literature (50 years ago, I could read Boule,
Livres de Poche etc., but not Camus). But trying to get any
advice on how to do so is murder, and my colleagues are unhelpful.
Inter alia, I need a reference on grammar, and dictionaries of
idiom and historical usage - not Villon, obviously. Any useful
suggestions appreciated but, to me, French is a dead language!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.