On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 10:01:09 +0000, David Rance wrote:

The French were
taught English in a similar manner. Sometime in the 1970s the French
sorted out English teaching, most educated French can communicate in
English and write English well nowadays.

Well, I would strongly disagree with that, having been in French schools
on exchange visits and observed English lessons in the '80s and '90s.
From what I saw it wasn't much better than the way I was taught French
in England in the '50s. And music was even worse (that being my
subject). The music lessons were so bad that I was not allowed to
observe any classes because the teachers could not keep order. And from
what I heard through an open window, music lessons simply consisted of
learning to play tunes on a descant recorder. My last visit was to a
French private school where I *was* allowed into the classroom but it
was just the same except that the discipline was better. The pupils were
not primary school children but 14 - 15 year olds! No wonder they were
bored and played the teachers up!

Well, I certainly agree with David here. English has been a big
problem in the schools, and it was only recently (around 2000) that a big
effort was undertaken to "fix" it. The situation is somewhat better
today but still not great as a lot of the English teachers are French of
questionable fluency.

Music is far worse, it is taught at a decreasing level in most schools
and disappears altogether in upper school. However I've found kids to be
well behaved. I did a series of concerts in the Paris public schools,
about 15 years ago I guess, and the kids behaved flawlessly. Aside from
the instrument miming which is endemic to the age. Unfortunately the
concerts were sponsored by the parents association, and we were paid with
a huge sack of small change! I thought I'd be done for robbing a parking
meter (which there still were in those days).

-E

--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 2013-02-11 10:23:07 +0000, said:

In article ,
David Rance wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 Martin wrote:

All those years ago school French was taught better than now.

Don't agree.

If it had been, I would never have passed my O-level (which I
did very comfortably). 25-30 years ago I decided to brush up my
French by listening to a cassette while commuting, and found out
why I have so much trouble understanding it (despite being able
to read it, sort-of). I literally cannot hear it. I can't hear
the word breaks, distinguish most of the vowels and, when spoken
by a Frenchwoman, some vowels come across as silence.

On this matter, I would like to recover my old ability and enhance
it enough to read literature (50 years ago, I could read Boule,
Livres de Poche etc., but not Camus). But trying to get any
advice on how to do so is murder, and my colleagues are unhelpful.
Inter alia, I need a reference on grammar, and dictionaries of
idiom and historical usage - not Villon, obviously. Any useful
suggestions appreciated but, to me, French is a dead language!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The obvious recommendation is total immersion by spending 6 months
living there and speaking nothing but French. When I was doing French O
level we had to go into the French dining room at least once a week and
speak nothing but French. I chose to go in every day and actually found
myself thinking in French at one point. But the more easily accessible
route and one I've heard teachers commend, is reading a French
newspaper every day. Apparently, it starts off like visiting Mars but
it does disentangle itself and one picks up idiomatic French, as well
as 'good' French. I speak fairly good French for a foreigner but I find
listening to the radio murderous!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 11:10:52 +0000, Sacha wrote:

On 2013-02-11 10:23:07 +0000, said:

In article ,
David Rance wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 Martin wrote:

All those years ago school French was taught better than now.

Don't agree.

If it had been, I would never have passed my O-level (which I did very
comfortably). 25-30 years ago I decided to brush up my French by
listening to a cassette while commuting, and found out why I have so
much trouble understanding it (despite being able to read it, sort-of).
I literally cannot hear it. I can't hear the word breaks, distinguish
most of the vowels and, when spoken by a Frenchwoman, some vowels come
across as silence.

On this matter, I would like to recover my old ability and enhance it
enough to read literature (50 years ago, I could read Boule, Livres de
Poche etc., but not Camus). But trying to get any advice on how to do
so is murder, and my colleagues are unhelpful.
Inter alia, I need a reference on grammar, and dictionaries of idiom
and historical usage - not Villon, obviously. Any useful suggestions
appreciated but, to me, French is a dead language!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The obvious recommendation is total immersion by spending 6 months
living there and speaking nothing but French. When I was doing French O
level we had to go into the French dining room at least once a week and
speak nothing but French. I chose to go in every day and actually found
myself thinking in French at one point. But the more easily accessible
route and one I've heard teachers commend, is reading a French newspaper
every day. Apparently, it starts off like visiting Mars but it does
disentangle itself and one picks up idiomatic French, as well as 'good'
French. I speak fairly good French for a foreigner but I find listening
to the radio murderous!

TV is useful, especially drama shows without complicated plots. (That
covers 99% of 'em)



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 18:02:20 +0000, David Rance wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 Emery Davis wrote:

No offense intended, but are you a fluent French speaker?

No offence (sic) taken but that was patronising! It is not for me to say
whether or not I am fluent in French as I never make claims for myself,
modesty forbids, but I can speak for my wife who is completely
bi-lingual in French and English. My French is not quite as good as
hers, and that is as much as I will say!


Hm, well. There was a reason I asked, because if you're not a fluent
speaker you may miss nuance. And if you're not immersed in a culture you
may miss nuance. You never make claims for yourself perhaps, but you
seem willing to pass judgment on whether another interaction was rude or
not. We thought it was very rude, you didn't, end of.

BTW, when using sic it is customary to quote the original exactly, not
the "correction". In this case I accidentally used the second or
American spelling, because that's what I learned growing up in NY.
Interesting the spell checker didn't catch it, it does flag other
Americanisms.


--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 10:44:11 +0100, Martin wrote:

Why are 2CVs are still on the road when production was stopped because
the car couldn't comply with safety rules in most countries?

Grandfather rights.

The right for old fools to die in a twisted pile of junk?

Actually it's still a very practical farming car, extremely high
clearance and thin tyres so it can go off road quite well (better than
many SUVs today). You still see them in the countryside sometimes. Lots
of smelly old R4s here too.



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

In article ,
Sacha wrote:

The obvious recommendation is total immersion by spending 6 months
living there and speaking nothing but French. ...

I am sorry, but you have misunderstood. I meant what I said when I
said that I cannot HEAR it - the neurological pathways in my brain
do not distinguish enough of it (or, as I said, register some of them
as sounds at all). I am FAR too old to develop the pathways needed
to do so. That is relatively unusual, but I have been severely deaf
since childhood.

You probably don't know how hearing works, but it isn't how most
people think it works. People learn to register sounds in early
childhood, which is why it is so hard to learn some languages in
old age (meaning after 5). French is unusual in its sound usage
among Indo-Aryan languages, though not as much as Chinese, let
alone the Khoisan or most Amerind languages.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 10:44:11 +0100, Martin wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 09:37:20 +0000, Phil Cook


The right for old fools to die in a twisted pile of junk? :-)

They don't comply with regulations for new cars
but you can still run around in an old one.

Anything over 20 years old was excluded from MOT tests and having to
pay an annual road tax until this year in NL.

Historic vehicles registered before Jan 73 are exempt from Vehicle
excise duty in the UK. It's been a fixed date since 1998 .
Occasionally you hear of a car owner whose oldish and now rarer
vehicle was registered after that suggesting going back to a rolling
date with anything over 25 years old being exempt.
That would cover heck a lot of cars that thinking of them as "Old"
proves I am getting that way. TR6, E types, Any of those Austin/Morris
1100 variants that miraculously haven't rusted away.
A change to UK MOT rules recently exempted cars registered before 1960
from compulsory MOT tests. Still have to be roadworthy to be legal but
the thinking is that as most are driven by owners who care for them
they will be maintained properly.
Some farmer somewhere will no doubt find a Morris 8 his dad left in a
shed trapped behind a set of harrows and think" It'll be worth getting
it out now"

G.Harman

On 2013-02-11 11:15:18 +0000, Emery Davis said:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 11:10:52 +0000, Sacha wrote:

On 2013-02-11 10:23:07 +0000, said:
snip

On this matter, I would like to recover my old ability and enhance it
enough to read literature (50 years ago, I could read Boule, Livres de
Poche etc., but not Camus). But trying to get any advice on how to do
so is murder, and my colleagues are unhelpful.
Inter alia, I need a reference on grammar, and dictionaries of idiom
and historical usage - not Villon, obviously. Any useful suggestions
appreciated but, to me, French is a dead language!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The obvious recommendation is total immersion by spending 6 months
living there and speaking nothing but French. When I was doing French O
level we had to go into the French dining room at least once a week and
speak nothing but French. I chose to go in every day and actually found
myself thinking in French at one point. But the more easily accessible
route and one I've heard teachers commend, is reading a French newspaper
every day. Apparently, it starts off like visiting Mars but it does
disentangle itself and one picks up idiomatic French, as well as 'good'
French. I speak fairly good French for a foreigner but I find listening
to the radio murderous!

TV is useful, especially drama shows without complicated plots. (That
covers 99% of 'em)

I hope they don't have the wretched music ott that we have here. Makes
me spit!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 2013-02-11 11:27:56 +0000, said:

In article ,
Sacha wrote:

The obvious recommendation is total immersion by spending 6 months
living there and speaking nothing but French. ...

I am sorry, but you have misunderstood. I meant what I said when I
said that I cannot HEAR it - the neurological pathways in my brain
do not distinguish enough of it (or, as I said, register some of them
as sounds at all). I am FAR too old to develop the pathways needed
to do so. That is relatively unusual, but I have been severely deaf
since childhood.

You probably don't know how hearing works, but it isn't how most
people think it works. People learn to register sounds in early
childhood, which is why it is so hard to learn some languages in
old age (meaning after 5). French is unusual in its sound usage
among Indo-Aryan languages, though not as much as Chinese, let
alone the Khoisan or most Amerind languages.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Perhaps you missed the bit where I also suggested readiing a French
newspaper each day? As you mentioned wanting to be able to read French
again, I thought that might help you.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 11/02/2013 12:40, Sacha wrote:
On 2013-02-11 11:27:56 +0000, said:

In article ,
Sacha wrote:

The obvious recommendation is total immersion by spending 6 months
living there and speaking nothing but French. ...

I am sorry, but you have misunderstood. I meant what I said when I
said that I cannot HEAR it...

Perhaps you missed the bit where I also suggested readiing a French
newspaper each day? As you mentioned wanting to be able to read French
again, I thought that might help you.

Perhaps he can't SEE it either. :-)
--
Phil Cook

In article ,
Sacha wrote:

Perhaps you missed the bit where I also suggested readiing a French
newspaper each day? As you mentioned wanting to be able to read French
again, I thought that might help you.

No, I didn't miss it, but it's irrelevant to my question. The point
is that I can read such things (just), but it is of limited use if
I have no way of checking my deductions and/or looking up things I
get stuck on. With speech, people can and do ask and/or have their
errors pointed out.

I have downloaded some French books onto my Kobo, but I need to see
if I can hack it enough to make the dictionary feature useful. At
present, the word lookup tends to say things like "paysans: plural
of paysan", and looking up and/or translating words is FAR too
painful to use when reading.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 Sacha wrote:

On 2013-02-11 10:23:07 +0000, said:

In article ,
David Rance wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 Martin wrote:

All those years ago school French was taught better than now.
Don't agree.
If it had been, I would never have passed my O-level (which I
did very comfortably). 25-30 years ago I decided to brush up my
French by listening to a cassette while commuting, and found out
why I have so much trouble understanding it (despite being able
to read it, sort-of). I literally cannot hear it. I can't hear
the word breaks, distinguish most of the vowels and, when spoken
by a Frenchwoman, some vowels come across as silence.
On this matter, I would like to recover my old ability and enhance
it enough to read literature (50 years ago, I could read Boule,
Livres de Poche etc., but not Camus). But trying to get any
advice on how to do so is murder, and my colleagues are unhelpful.
Inter alia, I need a reference on grammar, and dictionaries of
idiom and historical usage - not Villon, obviously. Any useful
suggestions appreciated but, to me, French is a dead language!
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The obvious recommendation is total immersion by spending 6 months
living there and speaking nothing but French. When I was doing French O
level we had to go into the French dining room at least once a week and
speak nothing but French. I chose to go in every day and actually found
myself thinking in French at one point.

You're absolutely right. Going into a situation where you *have* to
speak in the local language is the only way to become really fluent.

But the more easily accessible route and one I've heard teachers
commend, is reading a French newspaper every day. Apparently, it starts
off like visiting Mars but it does disentangle itself and one picks up
idiomatic French, as well as 'good' French. I speak fairly good French
for a foreigner but I find listening to the radio murderous!

To make sure that we don't lose our ear while we're in England we watch
some French television (by satellite!) most days, usually the news.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 Emery Davis wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 18:02:20 +0000, David Rance wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 Emery Davis wrote:

No offense intended, but are you a fluent French speaker?

No offence (sic) taken but that was patronising! It is not for me to say
whether or not I am fluent in French as I never make claims for myself,
modesty forbids, but I can speak for my wife who is completely
bi-lingual in French and English. My French is not quite as good as
hers, and that is as much as I will say!

Hm, well. There was a reason I asked, because if you're not a fluent
speaker you may miss nuance. And if you're not immersed in a culture you
may miss nuance. You never make claims for yourself perhaps, but you
seem willing to pass judgment on whether another interaction was rude or
not. We thought it was very rude, you didn't, end of.

*You* knew why you asked but I didn't because you didn't explain.

BTW, when using sic it is customary to quote the original exactly, not
the "correction".

On the contrary, I used "sic" to imply that I intended that spelling and
that I hadn't made a mistake.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 Emery Davis wrote:

Music is far worse, it is taught at a decreasing level in most schools
and disappears altogether in upper school. However I've found kids to be
well behaved. I did a series of concerts in the Paris public schools,
about 15 years ago I guess, and the kids behaved flawlessly.

Are you the Emery Davis of the Emery Davis Quartet. If so, I hadn't made
the connection!

I do like your music! :-) It reminds me of a style by a modern jazz
group of the '60s-'70s whose name escapes me now. All I can remember is
that they performed extended jazz compositions, the best known of which
was called "Metropolis", and that the bassist was Barry Guy.

If you're not that Emery Davis then forgive the above!

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 14:17:49 +0000, David Rance wrote:

Are you the Emery Davis of the Emery Davis Quartet. If so, I hadn't made
the connection!


Rumbled. Pleased to hear you enjoy my schtick, though.

cheers,

-E

--
Gardening in Lower Normandy