"David Hill" wrote in message
...

[snip]

they say in their last paragraph ....... "If you as an organisation or
company hold any personal or customer information, either in a database or
other retrievable format, then in accordance with the Act and under the
authority of the Information Commissioner, you must register as a data
controller."

There you see what I was bothered about in an earlier post. *All* data
whatsoever is now in a retrievable format, since the advent of scanners and
optical character recognition software.

The only data *not* in retrievable form would be data written on paper,
shredded and put on the compost heap.

( There you are. Back on topic)

[snip]

Franz

"David Hill" wrote in message
...

[snip]

they say in their last paragraph ....... "If you as an organisation or
company hold any personal or customer information, either in a database or
other retrievable format, then in accordance with the Act and under the
authority of the Information Commissioner, you must register as a data
controller."

There you see what I was bothered about in an earlier post. *All* data
whatsoever is now in a retrievable format, since the advent of scanners and
optical character recognition software.

The only data *not* in retrievable form would be data written on paper,
shredded and put on the compost heap.

( There you are. Back on topic)

[snip]

Franz

In message , Franz Heymann
writes

"David Hill" wrote in message
...

[snip]

they say in their last paragraph ....... "If you as an organisation or
company hold any personal or customer information, either in a database or
other retrievable format, then in accordance with the Act and under the
authority of the Information Commissioner, you must register as a data
controller."

There you see what I was bothered about in an earlier post. *All* data
whatsoever is now in a retrievable format, since the advent of scanners and
optical character recognition software.

The only data *not* in retrievable form would be data written on paper,
shredded and put on the compost heap.


( There you are. Back on topic)

[snip]

Franz


You must look at the Act in its entirety, not just isolated statements.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

In message , Franz Heymann
writes

"David Hill" wrote in message
...

[snip]

they say in their last paragraph ....... "If you as an organisation or
company hold any personal or customer information, either in a database or
other retrievable format, then in accordance with the Act and under the
authority of the Information Commissioner, you must register as a data
controller."

There you see what I was bothered about in an earlier post. *All* data
whatsoever is now in a retrievable format, since the advent of scanners and
optical character recognition software.

The only data *not* in retrievable form would be data written on paper,
shredded and put on the compost heap.


( There you are. Back on topic)

[snip]

Franz


You must look at the Act in its entirety, not just isolated statements.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

In message , Mike
writes



"Janet Baraclough .." wrote in
message ...
The message
from "David Hill" contains these
words:
the cost £55.00.
If you fail to register max fine £500.

Watch your step David..I'm not sure there is a fee. IIRC radio 4
talking about a rip-off scam from a company sending similar letters; the
unsuspecting victim filled in the form, returned it, and the scammers
forwarded it to the right place and pocketed the payment as their
"administration and advisory fee".

Janet

You are correct and I have been targeted by them myself.

I hold thousands and thousands of names and addresses of ex Service people.
I have 2000 names for the National Service (RAF) Association alone, 500 for
the H.M.S.Collingwood Association, 200 for the River Class Association, over
200 for the British Pacific Fleet Association plus Membership lists
containing hundreds of people who belong to other Associations where their
membership Secretaries have sent the lists, for my own personal use, when
trying to trace an old shipmate so I can reunite them.

I contacted the local Trading Standards Office who sent me a video and books
on the subject and then contacted the Data Protection Office.

In a nutshell, you DO need to register if your records are kept in such a
way that by pressing a button you can extract, and let me use my own
listings above to explain, "All men who were 19 - 21 when they joined the
Royal Navy between 1943 and 1953" or another one, "All men from Norwich who
joined the Royal Air Force between 1947 and 1960 under the 1947 National
Service Act"

or to relate it to a Gardening Club "All people who have been a member
between 1961 and 1991 who have won the 'Best Lettuce' Cup on more than one
occasion"

As I am unable to 'press the button' and no doubt most, if not all Gardening
Clubs, would be able to 'press the button', there is no need to register.

However, if your business is such that by pressing a button on your
computer, you can mail merge and send a letter to all of the Gardening Club
Members who have never won a prize in the last 10 Garden shows, then yes
registration might be for you, because you are automatically 'targeting a
section of your listings.

Once you use the word "business" you are changing the rules. A garden
club would normally be a not for profit organisation whereas a business
would not - well not intentionally!!!
There is another aspect of the Data Protection Act which is quite
frightening. If you as the Secretary of a Gardening Club decide to gather
the names and addresses of all of the other Gardening Clubs in the country
and then sell that list to someone who will use it to market something, YOU
are in line for prosecution and the person you SELL IT TO is liable. I had a
case where someone tried to sell the names and addresses of all the
H.M.Ship's Association's Secretaries to Hotels to target them for reunions.
The Manager of one of the hotels I use a lot contacted me and now whenever a
likely list is printed in any of my magazines or publications, I print the
following:-


I wouldn't regard that as "frightening" - this was one of the activities
that the act was designed to prohibit.
DATA PROTECTION ACT
These names and addresses are for the use of the Associations, their members
and prospective members. They are not to be copied in any way shape or form,
listed, sold, used, delivered, made available or marketed by a third person
for any reason whatsoever. R.N. Shipmates has not, does not, and will not
give permission for any use other than the direct use of Association
Members, Secretaries or prospective members as detailed above. Prosecution
of the 'collector', 'seller' and 'end user' may arise by contravening this
warning.

You could still have a problem under the act. If you are not registered
then yo should not pass on personal details to third parties without the
positive consent of the data subject. Do you ask for their consent to
publication in any application form you use?

Are your magazines or publications for members only? - in which case you
may be OK. If they are for general issue available to the public then
you could be in trouble.
The person concerned ceased his activity immediately on my warning him.

Carry on Gardening Clubs, Little Theatre Groups, Under Water Formation
Dancing Teams, etc etc. The act is not targeted at you :-))

Not strictly true - you are exempt from *registration* provided you
stick to certain conditions, BUT the Act still applies.

Data held for domestic purposes is exempt from the Act.
Hope that helps.

Mike


IANAL but I took professional legal advice on behalf of a club of which
I was a member. (2 different lawyers gave the same answer - is that a
record?)
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

Once you use the word "business" you are changing the rules.

and changing the reason why you/they have the data stored in the first
place. The company I organise the reunions through is a business and is
registered.

A garden
club would normally be a not for profit organisation whereas a business
would not - well not intentionally!!!

:-}}

There is another aspect of the Data Protection Act which is quite
frightening. If you as the Secretary of a Gardening Club decide to
gather
the names and addresses of all of the other Gardening Clubs in the
country
and then sell that list to someone who will use it to market something,
YOU
are in line for prosecution and the person you SELL IT TO is liable. I
had a
case where someone tried to sell the names and addresses of all the
H.M.Ship's Association's Secretaries to Hotels to target them for
reunions.
The Manager of one of the hotels I use a lot contacted me and now
whenever a
likely list is printed in any of my magazines or publications, I print
the
following:-


I wouldn't regard that as "frightening" - this was one of the activities
that the act was designed to prohibit.

Yes I agree with you there that is what the DPA is for and maybe I should
not have used the word frightening, but rather 'be watchful for' because a
heatlhy Amatuer Club of or for any reason could have quite a data base of
people, as mine is.


You could still have a problem under the act. If you are not registered
then yo should not pass on personal details to third parties without the
positive consent of the data subject. Do you ask for their consent to
publication in any application form you use?

Anybody who joins an Association is joining to get in touch with his/her old
Service Pals. As soon as they contact me I send out an application form for
them to fill in and list their name, nickname, service number, address,
telephone number and their Service History in brief. They are told that this
detail will be put onto the membership list and sent to all other members.
I specifically ask if they wish their telephone number listing. About 5 - 10
% so no so that is not put on. I had one person who send for details of the
Association concerned and I sent a form to him. HE wrote back to me saying
that he would like to join the Association and to receive the membership
lists but did not wish his details to be included on the lists. DPA or not,
that was unfair to the other members and when he still insisted that it was
not included, I refused the application.


Are your magazines or publications for members only? - in which case you
may be OK. If they are for general issue available to the public then
you could be in trouble.

Members use only.


Carry on Gardening Clubs, Little Theatre Groups, Under Water Formation
Dancing Teams, etc etc. The act is not targeted at you :-))

Not strictly true - you are exempt from *registration* provided you
stick to certain conditions, BUT the Act still applies.

You have a chicken and egg situation here. The Act applies to everyone who
lists details, but registration is not always required as I hope I have
explained. The Act applies to me once I start using my listings to 'seek out
and collate a certain criteria of people' as I explained before, but as I
don't, I don't need to register.


IANAL but I took professional legal advice on behalf of a club of which
I was a member. (2 different lawyers gave the same answer - is that a
record?)
--
Yes if it was questions on the DPA, because it is so full of holes, that
interpretation is the key word.

Mike

David could probably use the Data Protection Act against those who
tried to con him.
--
Martin

Very very difficult to pin that on them because they only used the
information as published here there and everywhere. I appear all over the
place and consequently I receive tons of junk mail. However it is only
recognising me according to which Association or organisation I am linked
to. I am perfectly at ease with what people pick up on web sites, newspaper
articles, Library Data Sheets, various Foreign Embassies round the world.
Federation of Naval Associations, Ministry of Defence, Royal Air Forces
Associations etc etc etc. But ifsomeone targetted me as a prospective
'customer' because of the age I was when my mother died etc etc etc, then I
really would blow my stack and the proverbial would hit the fan, and as
people on this newsgroup know, I can be a real *******.

Back to the DPA. 'A can of Worms' and you have to be really genned up on it
to fling it at anybody with the hope it will stick :-}}

Mike
Who never knowingly tells lies. (And if you didn't know, there is a story
behind that one)

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:14:42 +0000 (UTC), "Mike" wrote:




David could probably use the Data Protection Act against those who
tried to con him.
--
Martin

Very very difficult to pin that on them because they only used the
information as published here there and everywhere.

not if they have added David's name to their address list.


--
Martin

Once you use the word "business" you are changing the rules.

and changing the reason why you/they have the data stored in the first
place. The company I organise the reunions through is a business and is
registered.

A garden
club would normally be a not for profit organisation whereas a business
would not - well not intentionally!!!

:-}}

There is another aspect of the Data Protection Act which is quite
frightening. If you as the Secretary of a Gardening Club decide to
gather
the names and addresses of all of the other Gardening Clubs in the
country
and then sell that list to someone who will use it to market something,
YOU
are in line for prosecution and the person you SELL IT TO is liable. I
had a
case where someone tried to sell the names and addresses of all the
H.M.Ship's Association's Secretaries to Hotels to target them for
reunions.
The Manager of one of the hotels I use a lot contacted me and now
whenever a
likely list is printed in any of my magazines or publications, I print
the
following:-


I wouldn't regard that as "frightening" - this was one of the activities
that the act was designed to prohibit.

Yes I agree with you there that is what the DPA is for and maybe I should
not have used the word frightening, but rather 'be watchful for' because a
heatlhy Amatuer Club of or for any reason could have quite a data base of
people, as mine is.


You could still have a problem under the act. If you are not registered
then yo should not pass on personal details to third parties without the
positive consent of the data subject. Do you ask for their consent to
publication in any application form you use?

Anybody who joins an Association is joining to get in touch with his/her old
Service Pals. As soon as they contact me I send out an application form for
them to fill in and list their name, nickname, service number, address,
telephone number and their Service History in brief. They are told that this
detail will be put onto the membership list and sent to all other members.
I specifically ask if they wish their telephone number listing. About 5 - 10
% so no so that is not put on. I had one person who send for details of the
Association concerned and I sent a form to him. HE wrote back to me saying
that he would like to join the Association and to receive the membership
lists but did not wish his details to be included on the lists. DPA or not,
that was unfair to the other members and when he still insisted that it was
not included, I refused the application.


Are your magazines or publications for members only? - in which case you
may be OK. If they are for general issue available to the public then
you could be in trouble.

Members use only.


Carry on Gardening Clubs, Little Theatre Groups, Under Water Formation
Dancing Teams, etc etc. The act is not targeted at you :-))

Not strictly true - you are exempt from *registration* provided you
stick to certain conditions, BUT the Act still applies.

You have a chicken and egg situation here. The Act applies to everyone who
lists details, but registration is not always required as I hope I have
explained. The Act applies to me once I start using my listings to 'seek out
and collate a certain criteria of people' as I explained before, but as I
don't, I don't need to register.


IANAL but I took professional legal advice on behalf of a club of which
I was a member. (2 different lawyers gave the same answer - is that a
record?)
--
Yes if it was questions on the DPA, because it is so full of holes, that
interpretation is the key word.

Mike

not if they have added David's name to their address list.


--
Martin

You too are confused by the DPA :-((

Go and get the video and read the book.

David could probably use the Data Protection Act against those who
tried to con him.
--
Martin

Very very difficult to pin that on them because they only used the
information as published here there and everywhere. I appear all over the
place and consequently I receive tons of junk mail. However it is only
recognising me according to which Association or organisation I am linked
to. I am perfectly at ease with what people pick up on web sites, newspaper
articles, Library Data Sheets, various Foreign Embassies round the world.
Federation of Naval Associations, Ministry of Defence, Royal Air Forces
Associations etc etc etc. But ifsomeone targetted me as a prospective
'customer' because of the age I was when my mother died etc etc etc, then I
really would blow my stack and the proverbial would hit the fan, and as
people on this newsgroup know, I can be a real *******.

Back to the DPA. 'A can of Worms' and you have to be really genned up on it
to fling it at anybody with the hope it will stick :-}}

Mike
Who never knowingly tells lies. (And if you didn't know, there is a story
behind that one)

In article , hugh
] writes
In message , Mike
writes


There is another aspect of the Data Protection Act which is quite
frightening. If you as the Secretary of a Gardening Club decide to gather
the names and addresses of all of the other Gardening Clubs in the country
and then sell that list to someone who will use it to market something, YOU
are in line for prosecution and the person you SELL IT TO is liable.

And so I should hope!!!
If I give my name to the secretary of a club of which I am a member,
there is no way that I am sanctioning its use to send me a whole lot of
junk mail. I am giving it to the secretary of the club for club purposes
and nothing else. I am very glad to see that he/she is liable to
prosecution.

--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:14:42 +0000 (UTC), "Mike" wrote:




David could probably use the Data Protection Act against those who
tried to con him.
--
Martin

Very very difficult to pin that on them because they only used the
information as published here there and everywhere.

not if they have added David's name to their address list.


--
Martin

And so I should hope!!!
If I give my name to the secretary of a club of which I am a member,
there is no way that I am sanctioning its use to send me a whole lot of
junk mail. I am giving it to the secretary of the club for club purposes
and nothing else. I am very glad to see that he/she is liable to
prosecution.

--
Kay Easton

Exactly :-)) I don't know if you read my account of someone who was
collecting data in the form of the Secretaries of Associations and trying to
sell them, but I soon put a stop to that!!
You are correct. The data you give to a secretary is for that secretary's
use ONLY and when secretaries of Associations give me their membership
lists, it is on my promise that I will use that for finding old shipmates
ONLY. Even then I have built in a safeguard for their members, in that I
will notify the member that I have found someone looking for him and 'here
is the address' "You contact him"!!! I 1994 when I started the RN
Shipmates System I made a promise to EVERYONE concerned that I would not
pass an address to a third person without that person's permission. And I
have stuck to it!! :-))

Mike

"........ You too are confused by the DPA :-((

Go and get the video and read the book. .........."

Why? I got the T Shirt



--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk