Not being entirely familiar with Belgium customs, I don't know whether I
will really need references to gain employment.
To be on the safe side, I'll get a few in any case. One firm have offered to
provide it in Dutch. Nice off them.
However, if I had to write a reference I'd be flummoxed, so I've felt a bit
awkward asking.
That said, over the years I've had a few and was left wondering is there
some special way of reading them, as in decoding.
The reason being that I can recall the distinct differences between
reference I've obtained from landlords and employers. (all horticultural
related)
The landlord versions quite clearly paint a picture of the ideal tenant. So
positive and adept, that I probably couldn't have come up with something so
good myself.
Employer references on the other hand are, if nothing else, a curiosity.
Though always quite positive, they more resemble how one might try to sell a
household pet. This is why I wonder about references decoding.
Is this a horticulture-culture thing?
In one instance I understood the reference was supposed to be good, but to
me, it was more like an insult.
I had, in effect on many occasions saved their bacon. This was possible
through a capacity for problem solving on my part, entailing loyalty,
team-spiritedness, imagination, skill, knowledge, etc and occasionally down
right ingenuity.
But what the reference focused on was something about being able to follow
instructions and loyalty. Woof woof!!
Now admittedly, this firm worked almost entirely through various
architectural firms and contracts provided were very detailed indeed, i.e.
outlining instructions from the architects.
It would be more fair to say it was the firm I worked for who were good at
following instructions.
I guess the reference provided was more about areas which they felt positive
about themselves.
A bit like the opposite of when someone transfers their failings unto you.
However, with hindsight there was one matter un-addressed which I did not
know about.
If two people get precisely the same reference, lets say quite good, though
a tad bland.
Now let's say one of those two is a university graduate.
What gaps in the reference are automatically filled by graduate success.
In other words, what areas of abilities need to be highlighted within a
reference for a non-graduate, in order to level the playing field?
And preferably landscape / gardening related.

Patrick

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:34:45 +0100, "tuin man"
wrote:

Not being entirely familiar with Belgium customs, I don't know whether I
will really need references to gain employment.
To be on the safe side, I'll get a few in any case. One firm have offered to
provide it in Dutch. Nice off them.
However, if I had to write a reference I'd be flummoxed, so I've felt a bit
awkward asking.
That said, over the years I've had a few and was left wondering is there
some special way of reading them, as in decoding.
The reason being that I can recall the distinct differences between
reference I've obtained from landlords and employers. (all horticultural
It's a difficult one, I've never seen one saying 'this guy's a pain in
the backside, a useless gardener and we're glad to see the back of
him'. Even though I've worked with some who should have been given
that kind of reference. So whichever side you're on they have to be
written or interpreted with great care and several pinches of salt.
OTOH a former workmate who I'd trust with my life has just given me a
glowing recommendation for a young guy who's living in a bail hostel
where she teaches horticulture to some of the inmates - she doesn't
know his offence/s, she doesn't ask them.
Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

"tuin man" wrote in message
...
Not being entirely familiar with Belgium customs, I don't know whether I
will really need references to gain employment.

snip

Now let's say one of those two is a university graduate.
What gaps in the reference are automatically filled by graduate success.
In other words, what areas of abilities need to be highlighted within a
reference for a non-graduate, in order to level the playing field?
And preferably landscape / gardening related.
Patrick

I think it's all luck of the draw really. Most references are either positive or
at worst non-committal, so they are not exactly the defining thing when
employers are looking for staff.

Your CV is far more important, and this must make a good impression before they
ever get around to reading the references. Short sharp and to the point with
maybe a photo so they can 'see' who you are (works for me).

Getting asked to an interview is vital, but then it really depends whether it
'clicks' between the personalities involved (she says, speaking from
experience!)

Good luck.
Jenny

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:34:45 +0100, "tuin man"
wrote:

That said, over the years I've had a few and was left wondering is there
some special way of reading them, as in decoding.
The reason being that I can recall the distinct differences between
reference I've obtained from landlords and employers. (all horticultural
related)

When writing a reference, I am told you have to be careful not to
write anything which may be interpreted as preventing the person
getting a job, for legal reasons (ie you/your company could be 'done'
for damages). And if the employee really isn't any good, you want rid
of him/her too! Thus references have to be blandly positive, although
there must not be any outright lies, or the new employer may have a
case against you. As a result, there are a number of terms and phrases
which do need careful interpretation.

It is especially difficult to write a general-purpose reference (that
is not for a specific, known, potential employer), as you do not know
what is likely to be of most interest to a new employer.

As for the reference you got which mentioned following instructions,
do not be insulted! There is nothing more annoying in any employee
than one who decides to do what s/he fancies rather than what they are
asked to do, whether they know what they are about or not. I imagine
this is especially important to architects and the like who have
speciified clearly what they want (in agreement with the client).
Initiative has its place and time, but it takes gumption to know when
and where that is - something you obviously have, maybe if they had
credited you with that, you wouldn't have been quite so put out?

Regards, VivienB

I used to write lots of work references at one time and I did it by
ommission so that everything that I _did_ write was positive, and any
negative points had to be inferred. Like if I made no mention of XXX's
timekeeping but mention that XXX had a good rapport with his workmates
that meant that XXX turned up for work late, skived off early and
spent the intervening time by the tea urn!

Is this a horticulture-culture thing?

No I think it happens in all walks of life

What gaps in the reference are automatically filled by graduate success.
In other words, what areas of abilities need to be highlighted within a
reference for a non-graduate, in order to level the playing field?
And preferably landscape / gardening related.

In my opinion the main thing a degree shows is someone's
"stickability" ie it shows that on a wet Wednesday in the winter of
the second year when it all seemed too much they _didn't_ chuck it all
in but kept slogging on to the end and a result. I suppose a degree
also shows that the person has developed analysis skills and wide
experience of the local pubs.





Anna



~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Plaster conservation and lime plaster repair
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

"VivienB" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:34:45 +0100, "tuin man"
wrote:

That said, over the years I've had a few and was left wondering is there
some special way of reading them, as in decoding.
The reason being that I can recall the distinct differences between
reference I've obtained from landlords and employers.

Firstly thank you Rod, Jenny and VivienB.

The last time I had to ask for a job related reference was ooooh... 1984.

Since then I've being more or less self employed, with one exception of a
short while working for a firm here in London, who I wouldn't ask for a
reference from, as I sure as hell wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

The last job related reference I got did incorporate the fact that I had
being a foreman (being, or been... I always get them mixed up)

And so I guess if being a foreman entails the need to have initiative, so
then I guess it was implied.

Reading The Times recently, I saw an article where a firm provides odd-job
people. (0800handyman apparently) The unique characteristic of this firm was
hailed as being because two thirds of the employees are graduates and
several from Oxbridge.

The advantage of graduates doing this kind of work was because graduates are
inherently problem solvers! (Like the rest of us aren't?)

Total nonsense in my view. Well, as we all know, odd jobs can be quite
fiddly.

This got me thinking about the implied gaps which (I imagined, prior to
reading Jenny's outline of the process that I have being away from for a
long time), might arise between 2 identical reference but academic
differences


It is especially difficult to write a general-purpose reference (that
is not for a specific, known, potential employer), as you do not know
what is likely to be of most interest to a new employer.

Yes, this may explain the exactness and greater value of the landlord type
references.

As for the reference you got which mentioned following instructions,
do not be insulted! There is nothing more annoying in any employee
than one who decides to do what s/he fancies rather than what they are
asked to do, whether they know what they are about or not. I imagine
this is especially important to architects and the like who have
speciified clearly what they want (in agreement with the client).

Not only important, but I wish I had kept some of them, albeit only for the
purposes of posting here, so that customers can see how to be specific with
their instructions, or at least what amounts to a professional standard!!
(there's way too much dross about)

Initiative has its place and time, but it takes gumption to know when
and where that is - something you obviously have, maybe if they had
credited you with that, you wouldn't have been quite so put out?

Yes, oh yes, For the most part, the instructions from the architects were
excellent, though nothing more than detailing proper levels of professional
standards required. For that reason, when the unexpected occurs, initiative
has, by the very meaning of the word, to be independent and creative.

What I had hoped for was a reference, which would better allow me to seem to
be a more attractive candidate for a risk-taker employer whose ambitions
required just such gumption. And, not a house trained puppy... albeit that
they can be incredibly cute and would love to have one myself (-: (along
with a spell checker that does not tell me all is ok when I can pick out
words that ain't.

The question is how much better does my references have to be to compete
with a graduate... however, Jenny's outline does diminish reference's
importance.



Patrick

"Anna Kettle" wrote in message
...
I used to write lots of work references at one time and I did it by
ommission so that everything that I _did_ write was positive, and any
negative points had to be inferred. Like if I made no mention of XXX's
timekeeping but mention that XXX had a good rapport with his workmates
that meant that XXX turned up for work late, skived off early and
spent the intervening time by the tea urn!

Yep, that's also what I'm after. Thank you to you too.
However, it does sound a bit problematic. The sucess of such an
approach, ---which is a bit like avoiding something you really don't want,
by voting in something else you also don't want,--- would seem to be
entirely dependant on everyone else speaking the same language, i.e. in
terms of decoding/translating.
You will probably therefore get a giggle out of;
http://www.dontmindme.com/2mis0331.html

Having already asked a friend about this matter prior to posting, she was
confident that there are plenty of 'how to write a reference' books in the
library.
Testimonials ---appears to be another name for reference.
Not being much of a library person I've opted for the net.
For those interested, here's the best of what I've found since my last post;
http://www.profitguide.com/howto/art...sp?content=605
Interersting to see that; 'To whom it may concern' is out

http://www.careerlab.com/letters/ within which there's;
http://www.careerlab.com/letters/chap08.htm

Presently, I have to assume that each post might well be my last.
In which case, though entirely off topic, I may as well throw in my own home
page for your amusement; though unless you're really into neuro-physiology
and / or swimming, I suggest you scroll down the menu to number "4 Things to
try to do and how to do them"
http://homepage.eircom.net/~comicaquatic/
if for nothing more than a laugh.

Personally I'm grounded from doing such things at present.
Last monday, whilst removing ivy from a roof (eves), the extension ladder I
was on went out from under me as it's feet skittered accross the yard.
It takes the first metre, or so, to even realise what's happening, then
another bit to formulate thoughts, let alone words, more direct than "oh
shame".
Then another bit to catch up on the previous 2.
The last thing I wanted, just as I had caught up on real time rather than
panic time and had calmly assessed the problem, as the ladder continued to
stutter down the wall very quickly indeed, was for the ladder to come to a
sudden abrupt stop (tilting sideways) as it crashed through a window (one of
those with lots of little windows. Tudor?)
Somehow, inspite of a narrow thread, along with the fact that I was wearing
sturdy boots, both feet went through together between the rungs and I got
flipped backwards.
Luckily I didn't snap both shins, but it was a close thing.
There I was, dangling upside down with both legs snared by the rungs, unable
to extract by legs because my boots were to big, in agonising pain to the
point of not being able to move to a position whereby I could undo my laces,
in great pain when the customer looks out the window and;
"Are you all right ?" He asks... sort off funny now.
Luckily he was there to undo the laces.
So, I'm currenty bandaged up, (imagine what happens to a watermelon if you
drop it!) with instructions not to get them wet. (my legs--- not the
watermelons) What a bummer.
Enjoy1

Patrick



~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Plaster conservation and lime plaster repair
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:39:04 +0100, "tuin man"
wrote:

Personally I'm grounded from doing such things at present.
Last monday, whilst removing ivy from a roof
Snip painful accident

Patrick, so sorry to hear about your accident. Hope you heal well and
quickly.

Regards, VivienB

"VivienB" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:34:45 +0100, "tuin man"
wrote:

That said, over the years I've had a few and was left wondering is there
some special way of reading them, as in decoding.
The reason being that I can recall the distinct differences between
reference I've obtained from landlords and employers.

Firstly thank you Rod, Jenny and VivienB.

The last time I had to ask for a job related reference was ooooh... 1984.

Since then I've being more or less self employed, with one exception of a
short while working for a firm here in London, who I wouldn't ask for a
reference from, as I sure as hell wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

The last job related reference I got did incorporate the fact that I had
being a foreman (being, or been... I always get them mixed up)

And so I guess if being a foreman entails the need to have initiative, so
then I guess it was implied.

Reading The Times recently, I saw an article where a firm provides odd-job
people. (0800handyman apparently) The unique characteristic of this firm was
hailed as being because two thirds of the employees are graduates and
several from Oxbridge.

The advantage of graduates doing this kind of work was because graduates are
inherently problem solvers! (Like the rest of us aren't?)

Total nonsense in my view. Well, as we all know, odd jobs can be quite
fiddly.

This got me thinking about the implied gaps which (I imagined, prior to
reading Jenny's outline of the process that I have being away from for a
long time), might arise between 2 identical reference but academic
differences


It is especially difficult to write a general-purpose reference (that
is not for a specific, known, potential employer), as you do not know
what is likely to be of most interest to a new employer.

Yes, this may explain the exactness and greater value of the landlord type
references.

As for the reference you got which mentioned following instructions,
do not be insulted! There is nothing more annoying in any employee
than one who decides to do what s/he fancies rather than what they are
asked to do, whether they know what they are about or not. I imagine
this is especially important to architects and the like who have
speciified clearly what they want (in agreement with the client).

Not only important, but I wish I had kept some of them, albeit only for the
purposes of posting here, so that customers can see how to be specific with
their instructions, or at least what amounts to a professional standard!!
(there's way too much dross about)

Initiative has its place and time, but it takes gumption to know when
and where that is - something you obviously have, maybe if they had
credited you with that, you wouldn't have been quite so put out?

Yes, oh yes, For the most part, the instructions from the architects were
excellent, though nothing more than detailing proper levels of professional
standards required. For that reason, when the unexpected occurs, initiative
has, by the very meaning of the word, to be independent and creative.

What I had hoped for was a reference, which would better allow me to seem to
be a more attractive candidate for a risk-taker employer whose ambitions
required just such gumption. And, not a house trained puppy... albeit that
they can be incredibly cute and would love to have one myself (-: (along
with a spell checker that does not tell me all is ok when I can pick out
words that ain't.

The question is how much better does my references have to be to compete
with a graduate... however, Jenny's outline does diminish reference's
importance.



Patrick

"Anna Kettle" wrote in message
...
I used to write lots of work references at one time and I did it by
ommission so that everything that I _did_ write was positive, and any
negative points had to be inferred. Like if I made no mention of XXX's
timekeeping but mention that XXX had a good rapport with his workmates
that meant that XXX turned up for work late, skived off early and
spent the intervening time by the tea urn!

Yep, that's also what I'm after. Thank you to you too.
However, it does sound a bit problematic. The sucess of such an
approach, ---which is a bit like avoiding something you really don't want,
by voting in something else you also don't want,--- would seem to be
entirely dependant on everyone else speaking the same language, i.e. in
terms of decoding/translating.
You will probably therefore get a giggle out of;
http://www.dontmindme.com/2mis0331.html

Having already asked a friend about this matter prior to posting, she was
confident that there are plenty of 'how to write a reference' books in the
library.
Testimonials ---appears to be another name for reference.
Not being much of a library person I've opted for the net.
For those interested, here's the best of what I've found since my last post;
http://www.profitguide.com/howto/art...sp?content=605
Interersting to see that; 'To whom it may concern' is out

http://www.careerlab.com/letters/ within which there's;
http://www.careerlab.com/letters/chap08.htm

Presently, I have to assume that each post might well be my last.
In which case, though entirely off topic, I may as well throw in my own home
page for your amusement; though unless you're really into neuro-physiology
and / or swimming, I suggest you scroll down the menu to number "4 Things to
try to do and how to do them"
http://homepage.eircom.net/~comicaquatic/
if for nothing more than a laugh.

Personally I'm grounded from doing such things at present.
Last monday, whilst removing ivy from a roof (eves), the extension ladder I
was on went out from under me as it's feet skittered accross the yard.
It takes the first metre, or so, to even realise what's happening, then
another bit to formulate thoughts, let alone words, more direct than "oh
shame".
Then another bit to catch up on the previous 2.
The last thing I wanted, just as I had caught up on real time rather than
panic time and had calmly assessed the problem, as the ladder continued to
stutter down the wall very quickly indeed, was for the ladder to come to a
sudden abrupt stop (tilting sideways) as it crashed through a window (one of
those with lots of little windows. Tudor?)
Somehow, inspite of a narrow thread, along with the fact that I was wearing
sturdy boots, both feet went through together between the rungs and I got
flipped backwards.
Luckily I didn't snap both shins, but it was a close thing.
There I was, dangling upside down with both legs snared by the rungs, unable
to extract by legs because my boots were to big, in agonising pain to the
point of not being able to move to a position whereby I could undo my laces,
in great pain when the customer looks out the window and;
"Are you all right ?" He asks... sort off funny now.
Luckily he was there to undo the laces.
So, I'm currenty bandaged up, (imagine what happens to a watermelon if you
drop it!) with instructions not to get them wet. (my legs--- not the
watermelons) What a bummer.
Enjoy1

Patrick



~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Plaster conservation and lime plaster repair
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:34:45 +0100, "tuin man"
wrote:

Not being entirely familiar with Belgium customs, I don't know whether I
will really need references to gain employment.
To be on the safe side, I'll get a few in any case. One firm have offered to
provide it in Dutch. Nice off them.
However, if I had to write a reference I'd be flummoxed, so I've felt a bit
awkward asking.
That said, over the years I've had a few and was left wondering is there
some special way of reading them, as in decoding.
The reason being that I can recall the distinct differences between
reference I've obtained from landlords and employers. (all horticultural
It's a difficult one, I've never seen one saying 'this guy's a pain in
the backside, a useless gardener and we're glad to see the back of
him'. Even though I've worked with some who should have been given
that kind of reference. So whichever side you're on they have to be
written or interpreted with great care and several pinches of salt.
OTOH a former workmate who I'd trust with my life has just given me a
glowing recommendation for a young guy who's living in a bail hostel
where she teaches horticulture to some of the inmates - she doesn't
know his offence/s, she doesn't ask them.
Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html